Jewish group asks France to rename 'Death to Jews' hamlet

darkpagandeath · 13-08-2014 06:20PM

Reekwind wrote: »

And here we have the standard line. Outrage! Hysteria! PC brigade gone mad! Screaming.

And, again, additional nonsense. This attitude that an international Jewish organisation should keep its nose out of French business is absurd. It's baseless. Not only does it ignore the fact that the complaint almost certainly originated from within France (how else would it be noticed), it's a restriction that you wouldn't place on any other organisation. Should the SVP not operate in other countries? Is Greenpeace wrong to lobby governments across the globe?

And? That automatically validates it, right? You can be as bigoted as you want once you have a historical legacy to lean on?

And it's not as if placenames are never changed. Or are you still hung up about the Free State overturning centuries of 'history' in renaming Maryborough?

And you still live there do you? Amazing you've managed to get an internet connection.

Generally the dismantling of medieval traditions (guilds, famine, knights stabbing peasants, holy war, etc) it's considered to be progress. We've done quite a lot of it over the past few centuries. No one here claims that we should obey a strict caste system and that all positions of power should belong to a landed military elite. Yet this placename is apparently beyond the pale and is the one medieval relic that shouldn't be touched, despite (again) calling for the death of Jews.

I really wonder about this attitude. Do people here refuse to throw away any old clothes because they've 'got history'? Do you still use the same decade old AOL email account because 'that was cool back then'? If not, at what point does this magic 'immune to change' dust come into play? A year? A decade? A century?

This is just getting silly now, There are plenty of things here that if an outside group tried to change people would go mad. And I'm not coming up with a list. There is a town here that is refusing infra structure being built on the medieval town argument. You would have no problem stream rolling the place then ?

Reekwind · 13-08-2014 07:13PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

There is a town here that is refusing infra structure being built on the medieval town argument. You would have no problem stream rolling the place then ?

Let me roughly outline how that process typically works:

The relevant developer/agency makes a proposal outlining the proposed changes and the anticipated value that they will bring.
The affected community/agency details the value of the potential loss to heritage that these changes might incur.
A state authority (note: not the local community) weights the value of the new development against the value of the existing site and makes a decision.

Step 2 is the key here because nowhere in this thread has anybody demonstrated anything beyond 'Yeah, they've always called it that'. Merely existing for a long time is not in itself a justification for continued existence.

So what is the value in 'Death to Jews' retaining its name? Particularly when people have pointed out here just how small and insignificant the village is.

crockholm · 13-08-2014 07:16PM

Reekwind wrote: »

And why is that? It's probably because you can legitimately consider such anti-Irish discrimination to be "history". It's in the past. It doesn't happen any more* and so we can laugh it off.

That is not the case with Jews. Antisemitism has not gone away. It is not a thing of the past. There are organisations active today that actively advocating 'killing the Jews'. Every year in France alone hundreds of antisemitic attacks or incidents are recorded. Only the other week, numerous newspapers recorded how antisemtism is on the rise across Europe. Which is to say nothing of the past century's atrocities.

So this is not history. Not to those Jews living in France. They have every right to be annoyed at seeing a place called 'Death to Jews'.

*Outside of some very limited geographic areas. I wonder how Catholics in the North would feel if there was a village in which that 'Papist' sign was predominately displayed? Do you think they would be be as relaxed about it as someone from Cork?

Really? Still? In what world is it okay to call your town or village or house 'Death to [insert ethnic name here]' just because it's small and out of the way?

It still exists and in a lot of places outside N.I.,and thats pure true.And because it still exists that doesn't fill me with an iconoclastic fury to destroy and cover-up any signs of its existence from the past.or the present.

I am comfortable enough to allow people to their own prejudices.

The name of the hamlet does not in any way affect you,neither did it affect the half a million Jews living in France-it took outside agitators (who btw brought the frivolous claim against the Hunt museum in Limerick) to stir the pot.

If anything the name should be kept to remind the people of France and Europé of our history with regards to anti-semitism.

Mountainsandh · 13-08-2014 07:57PM

Reekwind wrote: »

So what is the value in 'Death to Jews' retaining its name? Particularly when people have pointed out here just how small and insignificant the village is.

Excuse if that comes across as very rude, but who the hell do you think you are advocating that a hamlet in Loiret, France, should change its name ?

It's not so much the "value" of the place retaining its name, as who decides what a place is called.

Again, the local people nearly changed the name in the 90s or so, things didn't work out, and they weren't bothered enough to persist.
They might decide to apply to have it changed again in light of this controversy, or they might not.

quote from the Mayor, and one of the inhabitants of the place :

L'adjointe au maire de Courtemaux, Marie-Élisabeth Secretand, réélue en mars pour la quatrième fois consécutive, se souvient: «Un peu avant mon premier mandat, les gens voulaient que cela change.» Emmanuel Courcier évoque aussi une délibération à la mairie «il y a une vingtaine d'années». «Déjà sous Giscard, j'avais envoyé une pétition au député, Xavier Deniau, qui avait fait remonter au ministre de l'Intérieur notre demande.» Sans succès. «Je n'avais pas l'intention de renouveler cette démarche, cela ne nous dérange plus, maintenant que le nom n'apparaît plus nulle part, sauf sur les documents officiels», explique-t-il.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2014/08/13/01016-20140813ARTFIG00059-la-mort-aux-juifs-un-hameau-derangeant.php

Translation : The Deputy Mayor of Courtemaux Mary Elizabeth Secretand, re-elected in March for the fourth consecutive time, recalls, "Shortly before my first term, people wanted that to change." Emmanuel Courcier (resident) also mentions a resolution (bill/formal request) at the town hall "around twenty years ago." "Already under Giscard, I had sent a petition to the MP, Xavier Deniau, who passed on our request to the interior minister." Without success. "I did not intend to renew this approach, it does not bother us anymore, now that the name does not appear anywhere except on official documents," he says.

Reekwind · 13-08-2014 08:30PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Excuse if that comes across as very rude, but who the hell do you think you are advocating that a hamlet in Loiret, France, should change its name ?

I'm Reekwind.

It's not so much the "value" of the place retaining its name, as who decides what a place is called

Which will probably be the local mayor, or a similar state authority (perhaps central government). I'd be surprised if in France that requires a plebiscite. Regardless, that's the discussion/judgement that needs to happen - simply proclaiming that 'it's always been that way' is not a valid reason, no matter whether its a local resident or Martian that puts it forward.

And the point here is that the inhabitants of an area can insist that it be called 'Lynch the n*****-ville' if they so please but that does not mean that it cannot or should not be renamed. The decision as to what offends an ethnicity is the preserve of that ethnicity alone. It's that whole 'well I didn't mean that racist joke to offend anyone' line. And I don't see French Jews queuing up to provide a Gallic shrug of the shoulders in this case.

crockholm wrote:

The name of the hamlet does not in any way affect you,neither did it affect the half a million Jews living in France-it took outside agitators (who btw brought the frivolous claim against the Hunt museum in Limerick) to stir the pot.

Yeah, because someone in the SWC just happened to be browsing through tiny villages in France. Just for the craic, during their lunch break. What are the odds of them finding such a tiny village?

The reality is that someone noticed this and reported it to the SWC, this person was most probably a French Jew. And if nothing else these few days have demonstrated the ability of the SWC to publicly escalate the issue to the highest levels of government.

But, again, the idea that an international Jewish organisation cannot raise these issues, or that in doing so they are alien "agitators" (!), is nonsense. Organisations that set out to support Jews and combat antisemitism have the right and duty to operate in any country in which either of those two exist. I would expect any such organisation to criticise antisemitic language in Russia, Saudi Arabia, Europe, Asia, etc, etc.

If anything the name should be kept to remind the people of France and Europé of our history with regards to anti-semitism.

Again there is this assumption that this is ancient history. Does it occur to you that maintaining antisemitic placenames that explicitly refer to pogroms and genocide might not appeal to those Jews who lived through genocide or are wary of potential future pogroms?

I am comfortable enough to allow people to their own prejudices.

And that is the sort of self-satisfied smugness that can only come from someone who has nothing to fear from said prejudices. Try living up North sometime and let me know how "comfortable" you are with anti-Catholic symbols, rituals and slogans.

Mountainsandh · 13-08-2014 08:54PM

Which will probably be the local mayor, or a similar state authority (perhaps central government). I'd be surprised if in France that requires a plebiscite. Regardless, that's the discussion/judgement that needs to happen - simply proclaiming that 'it's always been that way' is not a valid reason, no matter whether its a local resident or Martian that puts it forward.

Please re-read quote above.

And the point here is that the inhabitants of an area can insist that it be called 'Lynch the n*****-ville' if they so please but that does not mean that it cannot or should not be renamed. The decision as to what offends an ethnicity is the preserve of that ethnicity alone. It's that whole 'well I didn't mean that racist joke to offend anyone' line. And I don't see French Jews queuing up to provide a Gallic shrug of the shoulders in this case.

So what now, the French Jews who are not bothered should make an official declaration ?

Are you Jewish ? If you are Jewish and offended then you have a better argument, although what offends you might not offend others of the same religion. If you are not, then you are just being excessively sympathetic to an imaginary group of stricken French Jews, who have not made themselves known as of yet.

I have a sneaking suspicion that in light of the bad publicity, the residents might decide to restart the name changing process anyway.

crockholm · 13-08-2014 09:47PM

Reekwind wrote: »

I'm Reekwind.

Which will probably be the local mayor, or a similar state authority (perhaps central government). I'd be surprised if in France that requires a plebiscite. Regardless, that's the discussion/judgement that needs to happen - simply proclaiming that 'it's always been that way' is not a valid reason, no matter whether its a local resident or Martian that puts it forward.

And the point here is that the inhabitants of an area can insist that it be called 'Lynch the n*****-ville' if they so please but that does not mean that it cannot or should not be renamed. The decision as to what offends an ethnicity is the preserve of that ethnicity alone. It's that whole 'well I didn't mean that racist joke to offend anyone' line. And I don't see French Jews queuing up to provide a Gallic shrug of the shoulders in this case.

Yeah, because someone in the SWC just happened to be browsing through tiny villages in France. Just for the craic, during their lunch break. What are the odds of them finding such a tiny village?

The reality is that someone noticed this and reported it to the SWC, this person was most probably a French Jew. And if nothing else these few days have demonstrated the ability of the SWC to publicly escalate the issue to the highest levels of government.

But, again, the idea that an international Jewish organisation cannot raise these issues, or that in doing so they are alien "agitators" (!), is nonsense. Organisations that set out to support Jews and combat antisemitism have the right and duty to operate in any country in which either of those two exist. I would expect any such organisation to criticise antisemitic language in Russia, Saudi Arabia, Europe, Asia, etc, etc.

Again there is this assumption that this is ancient history. Does it occur to you that maintaining antisemitic placenames that explicitly refer to pogroms and genocide might not appeal to those Jews who lived through genocide or are wary of potential future pogroms?

And that is the sort of self-satisfied smugness that can only come from someone who has nothing to fear from said prejudices. Try living up North sometime and let me know how "comfortable" you are with anti-Catholic symbols, rituals and slogans.

OK.....couple of Points.

You are assuming that a jewish person sent it to swc.That may not be so-blowhards are not confined to one ethnicity or creed.

How many jews are alive from when the hamlet got its name?If you genuinely want to prevent further pogroms or anti-semetic violence in France/Europé,I personally wouldn't start with a Place that consists of a couple of farmhouses and a cowshed.

Now as for the smugness,I live in a huge Protestant majority country,so I am the minority there too,and have recieved less than complementary comments about my ethnicity and the religion I was baptized into. So yeah,I do know how to turn the other cheek in such matters.

All in all I'm thankful that you are just an insignificant Anonymous poster and that the French people can carry on without being lectured by your ilk.And do yourself a favour by not taking a peek at the corsican flag either-you could combust. Just a Little heads up from your ol china plate,crockholm:)

kowloon · 13-08-2014 10:39PM

Thoie wrote: »

And as for Killahore, well, I won't tell you what goes on there.

When they're dead they're just hookers.

PopePalpatine · 13-08-2014 10:47PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Why, They said no 20 years ago apparently. (And before you ask yes the name is distasteful.)

By any chance, was the mayor back then part of the Front National?

Mountainsandh · 13-08-2014 11:08PM

Please read quote above (in one of my previous posts) it was the interior affairs ministry. The Mayor is the one who has to put the motion forward, or apply, whatever you call it, they do not seem to have any authority to change the name.

HalloweenJack · 13-08-2014 11:56PM

There's a place in Spain with an equally odd name. I saw a while back on the news here that they're talking about changing the name of it, too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrillo_Matajud%C3%ADos

Until recently, the name of the town was Castrillo Matajudíos, an approximate translation of which is "Kill-Jews Camp." On May 16, 2014, following a campaign led by mayor Lorenzo Rodríguez, villagers voted to change the name of the town to Castrillo Mota de Judíos, or "Camp Hill of Jews." This is similar to the original name of the town, Castrillo Motajudíos. The town received its original name in 1035, and the change from Motajudíos to Matajudíos occurred in 1623. The name change process will begin on June 3.

The origin of the change of name from "Hill of Jews" to "Kill Jews" can be derived to the last 2000 years of religious strife and struggle for power over the Iberian peninsula. After the Christian Spanish expulsion of the Muslim Moors and Jews with the final fall of Granada in 1492 there were mass conversions to Christianity and the name changed from "Hill of Jews" to "Kill Jews".

floggg · 14-08-2014 08:48AM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Yes I know it's mad, A name that's been around since the 11th century that has nothing to do with the modern day Jewish holocaust.

Sure that's grand. It's name is a general reference to ethnic cleansing of Jewish people, not any specific genocide.

Sure how could that be offensive to anybody.

Mountainsandh · 14-08-2014 10:37AM

Confirmation today by the Mayor of nearby village the hamlet is attached to that the name has not been in use for years, no signs mention it, and is not used in postal addresses, it simply appears in the old historical land maps.
Regardless, he has it on the next municipal agenda, so I would guess they will probably lodge another request to have it obliterated from that old map. Nothing needs change for the residents anyway since it is not in use.
Not sure how you'd go about erasing something off an old map.

smurgen · 14-08-2014 10:49AM

What a weird,weird name for a place.of course they should rename it.never heard the likes of it before

pickarooney · 14-08-2014 10:54AM

I've found some places called 'death to donkeys', 'death to hares' and 'death to head-lice' on Google maps. I'd love to know the origin of that last one particuarly.

darkpagandeath · 14-08-2014 11:44AM

How exactly are they going to change all the historical maps that may have the name on exactly ? Doubt museums will let you tipp-ex it out. Again pointless exercise ?

pickarooney · 14-08-2014 11:54AM

Who uploaded it to Google Maps, I wonder.

darkpagandeath · 14-08-2014 12:13PM

pickarooney wrote: »

Who uploaded it to Google Maps, I wonder.

May have consulted an ordnance survey map to get the name ? And tbh this story gets worse as if it's not even in common use.

Mountainsandh · 14-08-2014 12:22PM

It's on the cadastre, I wonder is that drawn from Cassini's maps ? Even if it is possible to change the cadastre, it will remain on those. (I would guess)

Sunhill · 14-08-2014 12:33PM

crockholm wrote: »

Once there was a plaque outside the main gate on the entrance to Bandon, Co.Cork which among other things expressed that "No Papist may enter here" ...

Jonathan Swift's response to the above was:

"He who wrote this, wrote it well
For the same is written on the gates of Hell."

josip · 14-08-2014 12:44PM

Could we ask New zealand to rename Cromwell?
It roughly translates to "Death to all Irish"

Jimoslimos · 14-08-2014 12:48PM

I think they should definitely change it. However if I was a local it would irritate me that this change would seem to arise from pressure from an outside international lobby group. Particularly one that is self-serving, hypocritical and prone to twisting the truth to meet its own agenda.

So as a compromise some alternative non anti-semitic names, "Freedom to Gaza" or perhaps "Justice for Palestinians". If they wanted to keep the "death" part perhaps "La Mort aux IDF"

pickarooney · 14-08-2014 01:27PM

Or 'Death to eejits' - 'La Mort aux Sots' (with apologies to Dalida)

Mountainsandh · 14-08-2014 04:03PM

Are they in France the donkey, etc... Pickarooney ?

I had a look at what the cadastre is exactly : most of it was established in Napoleon time, however it was such a mammoth task, with one geometrist/engineer working his way through an entire sector, portion by portion, that a lot of areas where never really finished. Even when most of France was done, some areas were really poorly done, and over the centuries, and especially in the 1960s, efforts were made to update it. They divided each area in rectangular portions, and systematically recorded ownership of land, buildings, rights of way, roads, and geophysical characteristics (under Napoleon mapping roads was the priority, then establishing ownership for tax bases).
The government decided that the whole lot of it should be digitalised in the last decades, so it now supposedly is, albeit perhaps in database form rather than maps (both lists and maps were used from the start). To obtain a copy of a section of a paper map, you can apply via a solicitor, or your local authorities.

How geometrists/engineers obtained and verified place names, I haven't been able to find out.

I guess after a lengthy process, a solicitor will have the relevant changes officially made to the database, and when Google map updates, the change will be recorded. The government/relevant service actively communicated some info from cadastre records as part of an Open Streetview initiative or some such in 2006 Iirc.

Some example of old cadastre here : http://www.escaudoeuvres.fr/1-cadastre.php

And the official site, but I think most of it is under a paywall http://www.cadastre.gouv.fr/scpc/accueil.do

The name change really won't achieve much other than updating Google, they're hardly going to Tippex Napoleonian maps.

pickarooney · 14-08-2014 04:10PM

Lice not nice
Bad asses
hare today, gone tomorrow

Sheeps · 14-08-2014 04:19PM

I'd be in favor of keeping the hamlet name for the hilarity of it all.

Mountainsandh · 14-08-2014 04:29PM

I think the lice one must have something to do with WW1

Edit : I found a Dimancheville, thinking of moving there

pickarooney · 14-08-2014 04:40PM

tastes like chicken

Ash.J.Williams · 14-08-2014 04:41PM

do we still have a bastardstown in wexford?

jill_valentine · 14-08-2014 06:51PM

pickarooney wrote: »

I've found some places called 'death to donkeys', 'death to hares' and 'death to head-lice' on Google maps. I'd love to know the origin of that last one particuarly.

I really hope they've got an appropriate Game of Thrones style crest and motto to go with it.

Jewish group asks France to rename 'Death to Jews' hamlet

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