Life after death?

osarusan · 14-08-2014 05:35AM

I hope you're drunk.

Kermit.de.frog · 14-08-2014 05:38AM

sup_dude wrote: »

You don't need God to tell you it's not okay to go around killing people.

If everyone is like an animal in a field than why wouldn't you take what you can from everyone? Violently and without consequence, without fear? People don't like to hear it and ignore it but the rise in violent crime in "the west" is proportional to the decline in religion. Fact. Ignore as you wish.

House of Blaze · 14-08-2014 05:38AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Why would anyone be moral without religion or a higher power or whatever? Why?

It's bull**** at the end of the day because morality would not come in to a world where everyone was atheist. Because morality would have no reason to exist. Take what you can even if you have to steal and kill. Does not work.

Go and read a bit of Nietzsche chap. He covers all this better than I can. Thus spake zarathrustra is a good place to start.

"the death of God must be followed by a long twilight of piety and nihilism"

Zarathustra presents the overman as the creator of new values, and he appears as a solution to the problem of the death of God and nihilism.

In this way Zarathustra proclaims his ultimate goal as the journey towards the state of overman. He wants a kind of spiritual evolution of self-awareness and overcoming of traditional views on morality and justice that stem from the superstitious beliefs still deeply rooted or related to the notion of God and Christianity.

Basically it's up to us to create our own values and 'morality' without god being in the picture.

14-08-2014 05:39AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If everyone is like an animal in a field than why wouldn't you take what you can from everyone? Violently and without consequence, without fear? People don't like to hear it and ignore it but the rise in violent crime in "the west" is proportional to the decline in religion. Fact. Ignore as you wish.

Just because you put "fact" at the end of a sentence, doesn't make it true :pac:

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 14-08-2014 05:39AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Why would anyone be moral without religion or a higher power or whatever? Why?

It's bull**** at the end of the day because morality would not come in to a world where everyone was atheist. Because morality would have no reason to exist. Take what you can even if you have to steal and kill. Does not work.

Have you heard of the law, at all? How is not stealing and killing because of the legal and social consequences any different from not stealing because of the Jesus consequences? Morality is a human construct that keeps us going as social animals who need to cooperate to live - if there were no more humans there would be no more morality, the universe apart from us is AMORAL. Morality is propped up by religion, legal systems, all kinds of structuring frameworks, and in my opinion religion is becoming less and less appropriate as a wide spread structuring framework, which is why it's declining.

Deferring responsibility for morality from the individual onto some higher power - religion, nationalism, or whatever - has a long history of facilitating people to do terrible things and justify them by appeal to that higher power. Putting responsibility for your own actions firmly within yourself makes you behave MORE morally. Your argument is arseways.

You're doing a real disservice to religious people like, you're basically implying that the only reason they're not out raping and pillaging is because of their religion rather than themselves.

House of Blaze · 14-08-2014 05:40AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If everyone is like an animal in a field than why wouldn't you take what you can from everyone? Violently and without consequence, without fear? People don't like to hear it and ignore it but the rise in violent crime in "the west" is proportional to the decline in religion. Fact. Ignore as you wish.

This is the most crime free the world has ever been fella, hate to break it to you.

Ave Sodalis · 14-08-2014 05:41AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If everyone is like an animal in a field than why wouldn't you take what you can from everyone? Violently and without consequence, without fear? People don't like to hear it and ignore it but the rise in violent crime in "the west" is proportional to the decline in religion. Fact. Ignore as you wish.

I've never committed a crime, and yet I am atheist. Odd that, isn't it?

Thankfully, it has been many years since we evolved from living like animals in a field. Question, if religion is so moral, why are there wars in the name of God? Why are there brutal murders in the name of God?

Kermit.de.frog · 14-08-2014 05:41AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Just because you put "fact" at the end of a sentence, doesn't make it true :pac:

It is true. You know it is true. Deal with it.

takamichinoku · 14-08-2014 05:41AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Why would anyone be moral without religion or a higher power or whatever? Why?

It's bull**** at the end of the day because morality would not come in to a world where everyone was atheist. Because morality would have no reason to exist. Take what you can even if you have to steal and kill. Does not work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory

Game theory is a study of strategic decision making. Specifically, it is "the study of mathematical models of conflict and cooperation between intelligent rational decision-makers".

Doesn't take too much to figure out how a moral code can develop without the need for an afterlife imo.

There being no afterlife would be a long term problem for most people, they don't even need to think about it whether they're religious or not for the most part. You're talking about it as if it were an immediate issue.

Cookie_Monster · 14-08-2014 05:42AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Why would anyone be moral without religion or a higher power or whatever? Why?

It's bull**** at the end of the day because morality would not come in to a world where everyone was atheist. Because morality would have no reason to exist. Take what you can even if you have to steal and kill. Does not work.

So explain how animals such as chimps or gorillas (or any intelligent tool using animal) are able to live socially in large groups without killing each other. It's not like they have a concept of god, but clearly there are moralist behaviours at play for them to be able to teach each other, learn, play, share, punish etc

14-08-2014 05:43AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It is true. You know it is true. Deal with it.

Go on so, prove it

Kermit.de.frog · 14-08-2014 05:43AM

sup_dude wrote: »

You don't need God to tell you it's not okay to go around killing people.

Why isn't it ok then? Of course it's ok. Why wouldn't it be under your perspective? They have more than you so take it. You hate them so kill them. No one to judge.

Cookie_Monster · 14-08-2014 05:44AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It is true. You know it is true. Deal with it.

Source? Go on; any peer reviewed piece at all that like declining religion with rising crime will do. Anywhere in the world...

Ave Sodalis · 14-08-2014 05:44AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Why isn't it ok then? Of course it's ok. Why wouldn't it be under your perspective? They have more than you so take it. You hate them so kill them. No one to judge.

How about the rest of my post there? Wanna answer those questions?

krudler · 14-08-2014 05:44AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Why would anyone be moral without religion or a higher power or whatever? Why?

It's bull**** at the end of the day because morality would not come in to a world where everyone was atheist. Because morality would have no reason to exist. Take what you can even if you have to steal and kill. Does not work.

By your own logic what's stopping the religious murdering people all day every day? Won't they be forgiven in the next life? If not then what exactly did Jeebus come down here for?

Cookie_Monster · 14-08-2014 05:44AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Why isn't it ok then? Of course it's ok. Why wouldn't it be under your perspective? They have more than you so take it. You hate them so kill them. No one to judge.

Society will judge (obviously)

Kermit.de.frog · 14-08-2014 05:47AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Go on so, prove it

Simple. Plot a graph of the decline in religion in Ireland against the rise in violent crime and murders over the last 40 years. Point made. Discussion on that over *smug*:cool:

14-08-2014 05:48AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Simple. Plot a graph of the decline in religion in Ireland against the rise in violent crime and murders over the last 40 years. Point made. Discussion on that over *smug*:cool:

Go on so. Do it

Ave Sodalis · 14-08-2014 05:50AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Simple. Plot a graph of the decline in religion in Ireland against the rise in violent crime and murders over the last 40 years. Point made. Discussion on that over *smug*:cool:

http://2tzms222h2ff3dfce824gngnno8.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/files/2014/01/Religiosity-Graph1.png
http://thf_media.s3.amazonaws.com/familyfacts/charts-web/830-FF-chart.jpg

Interesting...

House of Blaze · 14-08-2014 05:50AM

Ah kermy, you're very upset aren't ya?

I just wanna wrap you up in a big white towel, stroke your hair and tell you that everything's gonna be alright.

It's gonna be aaaalll right kermy..

It's gonna be just fine.

krudler · 14-08-2014 05:50AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Simple. Plot a graph of the decline in religion in Ireland against the rise in violent crime and murders over the last 40 years. Point made. Discussion on that over *smug*:cool:

You think things like drugs, guns and gangland crime are due to a decline in religious attendance?

Duggy747 · 14-08-2014 05:51AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If everyone is like an animal in a field than why wouldn't you take what you can from everyone? Violently and without consequence, without fear? People don't like to hear it and ignore it but the rise in violent crime in "the west" is proportional to the decline in religion. Fact. Ignore as you wish.

As an animal species we do things like socialising, form groups (friends), etc to ensure our survival. Absolutely everyone going around slaughtering each other without rhyme or reason isn't exactly beneficial and only being nice to each other because we'll be punished in the next life is childish and a simple view of the complexity of life.

As for your "Fact", where's your proof or you're just pulling that right from your arse and making yourself sound like a Dettol ad.

You pick a hell of a time for your "Fact" when there's intense slaughtering in the world at this very moment in the likes of Gaza, Syria, Iraq, Africa, Asia, etc for the sake of religion and those who belong to one set of beliefs over another.

Morality from religion my hole, how do secular societies even exist and make it to the next day then?

Simple. Plot a graph of the decline in religion in Ireland against the rise in violent crime and murders over the last 40 years. Point made. Discussion on that over *smug*

The onus isn't on us to prove your claim and we're not going to do your homework, you make a claim like that then you better back it up or else you're just talking shìt.

ceadaoin. · 14-08-2014 05:52AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

You don't see it. You are ignoring it because you have no answer to it. There is no morality without a far higher power. Morality is redundant under your perspective.

People use religion to justify heinous and immoral acts. Fact. Just look at the news or read a history book for many examples.

House of Blaze · 14-08-2014 05:54AM

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21582004-crime-plunging-rich-world-keep-it-down-governments-should-focus-prevention-not

Some crimes have all but died out. Last year there were just 69 armed robberies of banks, building societies and post offices in England and Wales, compared with 500 a year in the 1990s. In 1990 some 147,000 cars were stolen in New York. Last year fewer than 10,000 were.

...
...

There is no single cause of the decline; rather, several have coincided. Western societies are growing older, and most crimes are committed by young men. Policing has improved greatly in recent decades, especially in big cities such as New York and London, with forces using computers to analyse the incidence of crime; in some parts of Manhattan this helped to reduce the robbery rate by over 95%. The epidemics of crack cocaine and heroin appear to have burnt out.

Kermit.de.frog · 14-08-2014 05:57AM

House of Blaze wrote: »

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21582004-crime-plunging-rich-world-keep-it-down-governments-should-focus-prevention-not

None of that applies to Ireland. Heroin dieing out? Been in Dublin recently?

Kermit.de.frog · 14-08-2014 05:58AM

Duggy747 wrote: »

you better back it up or else

Or else what?

You are all in denial. Nuff said.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 14-08-2014 05:59AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Simple. Plot a graph of the decline in religion in Ireland against the rise in violent crime and murders over the last 40 years. Point made. Discussion on that over *smug*:cool:

Hey, hey you. what about what I said earlier, plot the rise of secularism with the recognition of the human rights of women, workers, children, patients? The arrival of western democracy? The abolition of slavery? The widespread eradication of the death penalty? Forty years is a drop in the ocean.

The things that actually have resulted in widespread violence or dehumanisation have all involved appeal to powers beyond the human and individual: mostly religion, capitalism, nationalism, racialism, fascism, and communism. (Fact!)

Ave Sodalis · 14-08-2014 06:00AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

None of that applies to Ireland. Heroin dieing out? Been in Dublin recently?

Ohh sorry, morality only applies to the Irish. Right, gotcha

Kermit.de.frog · 14-08-2014 06:02AM

Marcos Fit Rehearsal wrote: »

mostly religion, capitalism, nationalism, racialism, fascism, and communism. (Fact!)

And I thought most crime was carried out by little gurriers who couldn't a give rats arse about you or any of the reasons you like to attach:rolleyes:

takamichinoku · 14-08-2014 06:03AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

None of that applies the Ireland. Heroin dieing out? Been in Dublin recently?

You were talking on a global scale at several points in this thread before... :rolleyes:

Besides, regardless of figures for these things, it's not as if murder and violent crime alone represent a widespread abandonment in the ethics of a nation. Boiling **** like this down to two sets of variables is never going to mean much of anything, like the whole way GDP and the unemployment rate are spoken of as if they're the be all and end all of everything a nation's prosperity.

There's a certain argument you could make that the catholic culture ingrained into Ireland has made the nation more prone to opiates and therefore plays a part in the whole heroin problem, I'm not going to even try and make it though because I've been up all night and when I look back on it iit'll read like bonkers nonsense such as your own.

Life after death?

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