Jewish group asks France to rename 'Death to Jews' hamlet

darkpagandeath · 13-08-2014 01:31PM

Ok, So we change the name of this place because of a genocide that happened hundreds of years later. As far as I know this place was named after the expulsion (Not Genocide) of Jews in the 11 century. Right so if we are using genocide as a reason to change place names. Once this has happens I'm sure this American group will be calling for Most of the USA, South America and probably Australia to have it's place names changed due to the genocide that happened to it's native peoples ? I mean otherwise you just look hypocritical.

wes · 13-08-2014 01:33PM

I don't see the issue. Its a crazy name, that should be changed.

Kiwi in IE · 13-08-2014 01:43PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Ok, So we change the name of this place because of a genocide that happened hundreds of years later. As far as I know this place was named after the expulsion (Not Genocide) of Jews in the 11 century. Right so if we are using genocide as a reason to change place names. Once this has happens I'm sure this American group will be calling for Most of the USA, South America and probably Australia to have it's place names changed due to the genocide that happened to it's native peoples ? I mean otherwise you just look hypocritical.

I don't see that any genocide past or present, is needed for a reasonable person to be able to see why that name is offensive and should be changed. What on earth do America or Australia have to do with it? I am not 100% certain but I highly doubt that either country have a town named 'Death to Aborigines'. And if they did, do you think Aborigine people would be acting in a petty and unreasonable manner if they asked for it to be changed?

Back to the hypothetical towns called 'Death to Catholics' or 'Death to Protestant'? Would that be acceptable in Ireland do you think? Would the fact they may have had that name for a few centuries be reason to make complaint about it petty?

shruikan2553 · 13-08-2014 01:48PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Ok, So we change the name of this place because of a genocide that happened hundreds of years later. As far as I know this place was named after the expulsion (Not Genocide) of Jews in the 11 century. Right so if we are using genocide as a reason to change place names. Once this has happens I'm sure this American group will be calling for Most of the USA, South America and probably Australia to have it's place names changed due to the genocide that happened to it's native peoples ? I mean otherwise you just look hypocritical.

Nobody is using genocide as a reason to change the names of places.

darkpagandeath · 13-08-2014 01:48PM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Nobody is using genocide as a reason to change the names of places.

The centre's director wrote to France's interior minister to request the removal of "this genocidal name".

From Op

Kiwi in IE · 13-08-2014 01:55PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

From Op

I don't see how it matters who said what or which group raised it to awareness! The town is called 'Death to Jews' for fecks sake! I struggle to see how any normal person would be unable to see how this is an issue!

darkpagandeath · 13-08-2014 01:59PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I don't see how it matters who said what or what group raised it to awareness! The town is called 'Death to Jews' for fecks sake! I struggle to see how any normal person would be unable to see how this is an issue!

I have already said the name was "distasteful" what will the name change achieve ? As this place name did not Cause the holocaust. Had gone under the radar up until 20 years ago.

shruikan2553 · 13-08-2014 02:02PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

From Op

He is using it as a description as killing all Jews would be genocidal. Nothing to do with any actual genocides. Can you point out any "kill all native Americans " in america? We don't want to be hypocritical as you claim.

darkpagandeath · 13-08-2014 02:05PM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

He is using it as a description as killing all Jews would be genocidal. Nothing to do with any actual genocides. Can you point out any "kill all native Americans " in america? We don't want to be hypocritical as you claim.

Ok, You got me. So the fact that a genocide happened is no reason to change names. But you can ask for a name to be changed even if it had nothing to do with one. Rodger.

Kiwi in IE · 13-08-2014 02:06PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I have already said the name was "distasteful" what will the name change achieve ? As this place name did not Cause the holocaust. Had gone under the radar up until 20 years ago.

The name change will achieve the town being named something other than a call for the death of members of a particular religion I guess!

shruikan2553 · 13-08-2014 02:11PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Ok, You got me. So the fact that a genocide happened is no reason to change names. But you can ask for a name to be changed even if it had nothing to do with one. Rodger.

You can ask for a name that directly references committing genocide of a group to be changed.

Can you really not see why a group might not be happy with a place calling for their death?

darkpagandeath · 13-08-2014 02:12PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

The name change will achieve the town being named something other than a call for the death of members of a particular religion I guess!

Did not realise this place was such a hotbed of anti Semitism world wide, Would you not have to speak French in the first place to even know about it ? And be local to the area, And know were the 2 building were.

Kiwi in IE · 13-08-2014 02:12PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Ok, You got me. So the fact that a genocide happened is no reason to change names. But you can ask for a name to be changed even if it had nothing to do with one. Rodger.

Would a town called 'Death to Jehovah's Witnesses' be a stupid reason for Jehovah's Witness people to complain? As far as I know there has never been a genocide against Jehovah's Witnesses, but I think they would still have pretty firm grounds for offence, complaint and request that the name be changed!

darkpagandeath · 13-08-2014 02:13PM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

You can ask for a name that directly references committing genocide of a group to be changed.

Can you really not see why a group might not be happy with a place calling for their death?

A place is not a person, how exactly is it calling for anyone's death.

Tony EH · 13-08-2014 02:15PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I don't see how it matters who said what or which group raised it to awareness! The town is called 'Death to Jews' for fecks sake! I struggle to see how any normal person would be unable to see how this is an issue!

In fairness, place names get changed all the time. But, by the residents of the area.

But, when a for profit concern like The Wiesenthal Center comes along to ahem "raise awareness", you cannot but raise your eyebrow.

I believe they, or another group like them tried to get the town of Swastika in America to change their town's name. The good people of Swastika told them to politely fuck off.

Kiwi in IE · 13-08-2014 02:16PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Did not realise this place was such a hotbed of anti Semitism world wide, Would you not have to speak French in the first place to even know about it ? And be local to the area, And know were the 2 building were.

How is any of the above relevant? The place is called 'Death to Jews'. If you cannot see why people might have a problem with that and want it changed I don't really know what else I can say!

darkpagandeath · 13-08-2014 02:20PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

How is any of the above relevant? The place is called 'Death to Jews'. If you cannot see why people might have a problem with that and want it changed I don't really know what else I can say!

What people ? who knew about it apart from the locals or this for profit organisation. People are trying to make out it’s world news and a hotbed of activity. If the for profit organisation did not find out about it i doubt any of us would ever have heard of it. So it’s an absolute none issue.

Mountainsandh · 13-08-2014 02:22PM

Here it is for anyone curious, looking very offensive indeed to the rest of the world :rolleyes:
http://s1.lemde.fr/image/2014/08/12/0x0/4470505_3_6820_capture-d-ecran-google-maps-du-lieu-dit_f8df3fd57a5028fb185ac9d2fc8f4d75.jpg

catallus · 13-08-2014 02:23PM

^^

Ah, here, my house is bigger than that!

Tony EH · 13-08-2014 02:27PM

A hotbed of antisemitism. :eek:

extra gravy · 13-08-2014 02:27PM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

You can ask for a name that directly references committing genocide of a group to be changed.

Can you really not see why a group might not be happy with a place calling for their death?

But nobody there is calling for their death! It was named in the middle ages and the name reflected the current events at the time. Its not like it was named last week. If I lived there, I'd be pretty pissed off if some group in another country that had never set foot in the place suddenly decided that I should change the name of where I grew up because they're too simple to accept that the name reflects a period of history and not current attitudes.

DeadHand · 13-08-2014 02:28PM

If there was a hamlet in deepest France named "Death to black Africans" or "Death to Muslims" and some group (rightly) demanded a name change, would this demand be dismissed on the boards as a triviality by many posters as we've seen in this case?

Would anyone dare trot out the braindead "With what Boko Haram are doing, I can't take anything black Africans say seriously" or "with what ISIS are doing, I can't take anything Muslims say seriously" arguments, as a couple have ignorantly done here equating the Jews with the state of Isreal?

I think not.

People would be falling over each other to condemn the wicked designation in an attempt to parade their "liberal", anti-racist credentials.

Anti-semitism has been rampant in Europe historically. The existence of this place bears testament to that.

It's still prevalent, particularly in this country. Hence the attempts to excuse or trivialize this disgusting name.

Mountainsandh · 13-08-2014 02:30PM

Actually, the place names around that village are really interesting and descriptive : the Skulls, the Hedge, the Rogers (who the hell were those Rogers ?), and loads more names that probably mean something but the meaning is hard to make out through the ages like Les Singeons (singe is a monkey, but I think the meaning could be very different if it's from the Middle Ages or so).

Kiwi in IE · 13-08-2014 02:31PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

What people ? who knew about it apart from the locals or this for profit organisation. People are trying to make out it’s world news and a hotbed of activity. If the for profit organisation did not find out about it i doubt any of us would ever have heard of it. So it’s an absolute none issue.

You seem unwilling to see the issue because of the group who raised it! What difference does it make whether any of us had ever heard of it or not? How do you know that there isn't a Jewish couple living close by this place who are offended and embarrassed by the place name but have never felt able to speak out about it for whatever reason? Just because you or I have never heard of something does not necessarily mean it is not an issue for someone else!

Tony EH · 13-08-2014 02:31PM

DeadHand wrote: »

Anti-semitism has been rampant in Europe historically. The existence of this place bears testament to that.

Which is exactly the reason why it should stay as t is.

FloatingVoter · 13-08-2014 02:38PM

Death to Jews is fine with people.
Also popular in the Middle Ages would be the following

Death to Queers
Death to Witches
Death to **** (moving onto upgraded Georgian times that one)
Death to Fenians (that'll be yourself)

They can keep their name - providing the Frogs (they brand people, so can I) admit that they lost their country in 4 days straight back in WW 2. They jumped into bed with the Nazis in terms of deportations to the camps (not just the Vichy regime) and grossly exaggerated the French Resistance to cover up their complicity.
On second thoughts, they should be made advertise the fact that they have a town called this on all their tourism posters both at home and abroad. Be proud of it. Be welcoming to your new kind of tourist.

Mountainsandh · 13-08-2014 02:39PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

You seem unwilling to see the issue because of the group who raised it! What difference does it make whether any of us had ever heard of it or not? How do you know that there isn't a Jewish couple living close by this place who are offended and embarrassed by the place name but have never felt able to speak out about it for whatever reason? Just because you or I have never heard of something does not necessarily mean it is not an issue for someone else!

The local residents asked the Mayor in the 90s I think if there was any chance they could make a legal change of name, things were a bit too bureaucratic, too much hassle, so in the end they didn't bother, from what I understand. Name was only discovered because some property was being sold, I suppose they use the old maps and place names for these things, it does not appear on any sign, in their postal address, or in the phone book (thanks Pickarooney for link), and I just checked, neither can it be found on Google. Don't think there's anyone local wringing their hands about it and never dared say it.

darkpagandeath · 13-08-2014 02:39PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

You seem unwilling to see the issue because of the group who raised it! What difference does it make whether any of us had ever heard of it or not? How do you know that there isn't a Jewish couple living close by this place who are offended and embarrassed by the place name but have never felt able to speak out about it for whatever reason? Just because you or I have never heard of something does not necessarily mean it is not an issue for someone else!

Let me clarify, The issue would be the same for me if you insert any random group its a historical name. End of, And the group raised comment is that supposed to make me out as Anti Semitic ? Interesting so we have gone from a group in the states calling for this name change. To imaginary people living next to the place...

Kiwi in IE · 13-08-2014 02:41PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

A place is not a person, how exactly is it calling for anyone's death.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

People are trying to make out it’s world news and a hotbed of activity.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

darkpagandeath · 13-08-2014 02:42PM

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Death to Jews is fine with people.
Also popular in the Middle Ages would be the following

Death to Queers
Death to Witches
Death to **** (moving onto upgraded Georgian times that one)
Death to Fenians (that'll be yourself)

They can keep their name - providing the Frogs (they brand people, so can I) admit that they lost their country in 4 days straight back in WW 2. They jumped into bed with the Nazis in terms of deportations to the camps (not just the Vichy regime) and grossly exaggerated the French Resistance to cover up their complicity.
On second thoughts, they should be made advertise the fact that they have a town called this on all their tourism posters both at home and abroad. Be proud of it. Be welcoming to your new kind of tourist.

Petty racism nice, yet the place name causes and issue... You do know France as we know it is not the same as the 11th centaury France.

Jewish group asks France to rename 'Death to Jews' hamlet

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