Former Boxing Promotor Frank Maloney to undergo gender reassignment surgery

fran17 · 11-08-2014 09:42PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Why do you think?

a question answered with a question,slippery as always joey.i don't know why,you have your belief on the matter and others have there's.i personally think frank has serious mental disorders and looking at the life he led for 60 years and the views he holds then its hard not to think this no?

Diabhal Beag · 11-08-2014 09:46PM

If you're willing to go through that much pain to change your appearance you've earned your respective gender IMO.

Annasopra · 11-08-2014 09:51PM

fran17 wrote: »

a question answered with a question,slippery as always joey.i don't know why,you have your belief on the matter and others have there's.i personally think frank has serious mental disorders and looking at the life he led for 60 years and the views he holds then its hard not to think this no?

I think its incredibly insulting for posters here to keep saying she has a mental illness just because she is trans. Its also incredibly insulting for posters here to keep deliberately misgendering her by using "he" all the time.

I'm angry because I have a lot of trans friends. I'm angry that my friends would have to read crap like this; calling her a man, calling her mentally ill, suggesting trans people cant be parents, suggesting all trans people are mentally ill, suggesting that trans women are objects to be ****ed.

Thats why I am angry.

Shakespeare's Sister · 11-08-2014 09:59PM

I think it's got to be borne in mind that not everyone is knowledgeable about the topic (I'm not myself) and might not always use language deemed correct in relation to it. This is not malicious to be fair, it's just making an error, lack of familiarity. It's conducive to valuable discussion to cut such people some slack/not play into the hands of the tiny few people foaming at the mouth about the PC brigade and thoughtcrime.

Ave Sodalis · 11-08-2014 10:01PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I think its incredibly insulting for posters here to keep saying she has a mental illness just because she is trans. Its also incredibly insulting for posters here to keep deliberately misgendering her by using "he" all the time.

I'm angry because I have a lot of trans friends. I'm angry that my friends would have to read crap like this; calling her a man, calling her mentally ill, suggesting trans people cant be parents, suggesting all trans people are mentally ill, suggesting that trans women are objects to be ****ed.

Thats why I am angry.

Fran has made his stance on the issue abundantly clear in other threads. For that reason, it is best to just ignore his posts as, unless they're improved (doubt it), they aren't going to make any sense.

Links234 · 11-08-2014 10:03PM

Magaggie wrote: »

I think it's got to be borne in mind that not everyone is knowledgeable about the topic (I'm not myself) and might not always use language deemed correct in relation to it. This is not malicious to be fair, it's just making an error, lack of familiarity. It's conducive to valuable discussion to cut such people some slack/not play into the hands of the tiny few people foaming at the mouth about the PC brigade and thoughtcrime.

I begrudge nobody their lack of knowledge, and as always I am more than happy to answer people's genuine questions. People have told me quite a few times that I've helped them understand transgender issues greatly, so I must be doing something right.

It's only people who soapbox their dislike of trans people that I refered to in another post.

fran17 · 11-08-2014 10:03PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I think its incredibly insulting for posters here to keep saying she has a mental illness just because she is trans. Its also incredibly insulting for posters here to keep deliberately misgendering her by using "he" all the time.

I'm angry because I have a lot of trans friends. I'm angry that my friends would have to read crap like this; calling her a man, calling her mentally ill, suggesting trans people cant be parents, suggesting all trans people are mentally ill, suggesting that trans women are objects to be ****ed.

Thats why I am angry.

ok I respect that,but that's life.but if,as your suggesting,gender identity disorder is an impossibility what happens to the people who go through with this procedure and then realise that they and there psychiatrists were wrong? its not reversible

Annasopra · 11-08-2014 10:11PM

fran17 wrote: »

ok I respect that,but that's life.but if,as your suggesting,gender identity disorder is an impossibility what happens to the people who go through with this procedure and then realise that they and there psychiatrists were wrong? its not reversible

I dont actually have a clue what you are on about.

Annasopra · 11-08-2014 10:14PM

Magaggie wrote: »

I think it's got to be borne in mind that not everyone is knowledgeable about the topic (I'm not myself) and might not always use language deemed correct in relation to it. This is not malicious to be fair, it's just making an error, lack of familiarity. It's conducive to valuable discussion to cut such people some slack/not play into the hands of the tiny few people foaming at the mouth about the PC brigade and thoughtcrime.

The thing is I agree with you. Most people here are actually open minded, willing to listen and learn, tolerant of difference. There is however a small number who are the opposite.

Lyaiera · 11-08-2014 10:15PM

fran17 wrote: »

ok I respect that,but that's life.but if,as your suggesting,gender identity disorder is an impossibility what happens to the people who go through with this procedure and then realise that they and there psychiatrists were wrong? its not reversible

Actually, a lot of it is reversible. All the hormonal element can be reversed, for male to females there's a good chance they'll be able to conceive after coming off of hormones and the same goes for female to males. For male to females mastectomies can done on breast growth. And for both genders the removal of their prescribed hormones will see their body fat and hormonal systems revert to their birth gender. For female to males their voice will have broken but as male to females have shown voice training works the vast amount of time and surgery is always possible to correct the vocal chords.

To say it's not reversible is simply not true. And for any of the non-reversible elements such as hysterectomies, orchiectomies, vaginoplasty and penile surgery there's a long time of "real life experience" where you live a transitioned life with the reversible effects having taken effect and during that period you have to be sure that the irreversible effects are what you want.

And as I've said before the overwhelming majority of people who transition are happier than they ever were before. And the people who detransition don't detransition because they were unhappy with the effects of medical treatment, but because of the way society treated them.

And of course before all of that you have the fact that people have to satisfy themselves and doctors before any treatment is done.

With all that in mind, if there still are a tiny few who make a mistake with their life should the other overwhelming majority be denied happiness because of it.

fran17 · 11-08-2014 10:20PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I dont actually have a clue what you are on about.

I'm saying that very little is known about the detail of the human brain,and much of psychology/psychiatry is a grey area.how are you so sure that your point of view,which you express with such passion,is right?

Links234 · 11-08-2014 10:21PM

Joey, it's whataboutery; "sure we can't possibly let ANYONE transition, if there's a posibility someone, somewhere might regret it!"

Lyaiera · 11-08-2014 10:22PM

fran17 wrote: »

I'm saying that very little is known about the detail of the human brain,and much of psychology/psychiatry is a grey area.how are you so sure that your point of view,which you express with such passion,is right?

Because of science.

Lots of people have been treated for being transgender. Almost everyone one of them reports being much happier with themselves and with life. Those who don't cite public prejudice as their problem.

Something was done. The effect of it was measured. The measurement shows what was done was a good thing. That's science.

fran17 · 11-08-2014 10:22PM

Lyaiera wrote: »

Actually, a lot of it is reversible. All the hormonal element can be reversed, for male to females there's a good chance they'll be able to conceive after coming off of hormones and the same goes for female to males. For male to females mastectomies can done on breast growth. And for both genders the removal of their prescribed hormones will see their body fat and hormonal systems revert to their birth gender. For female to males their voice will have broken but as male to females have shown voice training works the vast amount of time and surgery is always possible to correct the vocal chords.

To say it's not reversible is simply not true. And for any of the non-reversible elements such as hysterectomies, orchiectomies, vaginoplasty and penile surgery there's a long time of "real life experience" where you live a transitioned life with the reversible effects having taken effect and during that period you have to be sure that the irreversible effects are what you want.

And as I've said before the overwhelming majority of people who transition are happier than they ever were before. And the people who detransition don't detransition because they were unhappy with the effects of medical treatment, but because of the way society treated them.

And of course before all of that you have the fact that people have to satisfy themselves and doctors before any treatment is done.

With all that in mind, if there still are a tiny few who make a mistake with their life should the other overwhelming majority be denied happiness because of it.

I wont argue with that,you obviously know your stuff.

llennocO · 11-08-2014 10:27PM

fran17 wrote: »

a question answered with a question,slippery as always joey.i don't know why,you have your belief on the matter and others have there's.i personally think frank has serious mental disorders and looking at the life he led for 60 years and the views he holds then its hard not to think this no?

How hard it might be to think like that is irrelevant as there is no unmet need for your opinion on what "mental disorders" named individuals do or don't suffer with and there never will be, under any circumstance short of you getting educated. It's an achievement of society that people like you are able to share such unsophisticated insights in a public arena but it represents a damning display of arrogance on your part to offer this drivel to what could be an informed discussion.

Mental life is an extraordinarily complex thing and I find it unreasonable to assume have no awareness of how poorly you understand these matters. I'd hope you could at least be considerate enough to try and encompass some of that complexity in what you decide to share in public. Why not craft something worth the time it takes to read? You only do yourself a disservice.

Ave Sodalis · 11-08-2014 10:27PM

fran17 wrote: »

I'm saying that very little is known about the detail of the human brain,and much of psychology/psychiatry is a grey area.how are you so sure that your point of view,which you express with such passion,is right?

Yet issues around transgender are actually quite well developed. If you read over the thread, I've posted about twenty links about it, mostly from scientific journals.

fran17 · 11-08-2014 10:28PM

Links234 wrote: »

Joey, it's whataboutery; "sure we can't possibly let ANYONE transition, if there's a posibility someone, somewhere might regret it!"

why are you so so militant on this subject? the insults,the mob attack etc

Ave Sodalis · 11-08-2014 10:29PM

fran17 wrote: »

why are you so so militant on this subject? the insults,the mob attack etc

Here we go again... :rolleyes: This has already been gone over. I suggest you read the thread.

fran17 · 11-08-2014 10:31PM

llennocO wrote: »

How hard it might be to think like that is irrelevant as there is no unmet need for your opinion on what "mental disorders" named individuals do or don't suffer with and there never will be, under any circumstance short of you getting educated. It's an achievement of society that people like you are able to share such unsophisticated insights in a public arena but it represents a damning display of arrogance on your part to offer this drivel to what could be an informed discussion.

Mental life is an extraordinarily complex thing and I find it unreasonable to assume have no awareness of how poorly you understand these matters. I'd hope you could at least be considerate enough to try and encompass some of that complexity in what you decide to share in public. Why not craft something worth the time it takes to read? You only do yourself a disservice.

why are you personally attacking me? as you pointed out its an extraordinarily complex issue.why wont you accept anothers point of view?

fran17 · 11-08-2014 10:33PM

Lyaiera wrote: »

Because of science.

Lots of people have been treated for being transgender. Almost everyone one of them reports being much happier with themselves and with life. Those who don't cite public prejudice as their problem.

Something was done. The effect of it was measured. The measurement shows what was done was a good thing. That's science.

very well put and I wish you well.if only others could be as civilised

Annasopra · 11-08-2014 10:34PM

fran17 wrote: »

I'm saying that very little is known about the detail of the human brain,and much of psychology/psychiatry is a grey area.how are you so sure that your point of view,which you express with such passion,is right?

Talking to real people. See these 4 people here. I know some of them very well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkdVbbr407k

PopePalpatine · 11-08-2014 10:37PM

fran17 wrote: »

why are you so so militant on this subject? the insults,the mob attack etc

It's called fighting back.

P_1 · 11-08-2014 10:37PM

fran17 wrote: »

why are you so so militant on this subject? the insults,the mob attack etc

Generally people tend to get fairly irritated when uneducated oafs attempt to belittle them...

Annasopra · 11-08-2014 10:38PM

fran17 wrote: »

why are you so so militant on this subject? the insults,the mob attack etc

Ah here seriously. :rolleyes:

11-08-2014 10:46PM

P_1 wrote: »

Ok so it can be argued that Kellie did some questionable things in the past. Ok that's fair enough criticise away for that. What is doesn't give you is the right to verbally vomit on trans people as a whole.

If you don't know about something, educate yourself on it. don't sneer at it.

That's what I'm trying to do myself. Never really got what was going on in the Israel/Gaza conflict a while back and would've been dismissive of protesters etc because I didn't know any better or thought it was nothing to with me or they were just hippies with a cause. Educated myself on it and have opinions and viewpoints on it. Same with Transgender issues. Never really knew much about the subject until reading this thread tbh and in the past I would've said oh that's nothing to do with me etc but that's just a cop out. Education and knowledge is a privilege and should never be exhausted whereas ignorance of our fellow man/woman is nothing but a barrier.

Ok that's my deep sh*t said for the night, off to YLYL with me

Lyaiera · 11-08-2014 10:50PM

fran17 wrote: »

very well put and I wish you well.if only others could be as civilised

Others have been extremely civisilised in the face of your doubting and questioning. Things have been repeatedly spelled out to you and when your arguments have been well and truly dismissed you go back to talking about people being "militant" and uncivilised.

I've been extremely patient with you, as have others yet you keep coming back to points that have been answered ad naseum.

Links isn't militant. She's well read and confident about the issue, as am I, as are others in the thread. What you seem to find as militant reaction to your points is much more easily read as someone with an intelligent and nuanced opinion on the issue speaking with confidence.

I can fully understand feeling under pressure when all the issues you raise are intelligently addressed. I can understand that this can make someone feel hassled. The reaction to having all your concerns addressed isn't to complain that they were responded to with confidence it's to realise you were mistaken on the matter and change your viewpoint to the one's that have reason and rationality supporting them.

darced · 11-08-2014 10:53PM

This post has been deleted.

11-08-2014 10:56PM

Links234 wrote: »

I begrudge nobody their lack of knowledge, and as always I am more than happy to answer people's genuine questions. People have told me quite a few times that I've helped them understand transgender issues greatly, so I must be doing something right. It's only people who soapbox their dislike of trans people that I refered to in another post.

Can I ask a question. The former Frank has children but is now known as Kellie and is a woman. So do the children refer to Kellie as their Dad or their Mam? What way is it put in that in this instance? Or does that depend on the given family. Would you have any examples that you know of personally?

Annasopra · 11-08-2014 10:59PM

Omackeral wrote: »

Can I ask a question. The former Frank has children but is now known as Kellie and is a woman. So do the children refer to Kellie as their Dad or their Mam? What way is it put in that in this instance? Or does that depend on the given family. Would you have any examples that you know of personally?

I think it depends on each family what terminology they use. I know several women who were fathers. I've never asked them this though. Maybe Links or Lyaeria know more than me.

Pwindedd · 11-08-2014 11:04PM

Too Tough To Die wrote: »

Frank is a dirtbag. I do not believe he is genuine at all, in fact i think he has lost the plot.

Strange that, my husband was aquainted with Frank, back in the day as it were, and he wasn't surprised one little bit when i mentioned it to him. Said there was something "a bit off kilter" about him that he couldn't put his finger on.

Knowing the social circle they moved in - it would have been unthinkable back then to be honest about his struggle. I imagine he's been through a lot of therapy before he can get to the stage where gender reassignment surgery is a legal and viable option. A mental breakdown would probably be quite apparent to a medical professional. I'm just surmising though, it's only my opinion.

Former Boxing Promotor Frank Maloney to undergo gender reassignment surgery

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