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Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Comments

  • #3452
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    tayto lover wrote: »
    The campaign is growing in momentum ---

    ww.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/belfast-demonstrators-remove-israeli-goods-from-shelves-of-sainsburys-in-protest-over-g

    Very much akin to how the anti apartheid movement started against South Africa, hit them where it hurts most.


  • #3453
    Chance The Rapper
    Closed Accounts Posts: 494 ✭✭Chance The Rapper


    Fair play to them.


  • #3454
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Even without their aggressive expansionist warmongering, why haven't Israel been taken to task by all those freedom lovers in other parts of the world for them being a 100% proven racist state, with citizenship dependent on ethnic background?
    What kind of backward ****hole operates citizenship on those grounds?


  • #3455
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    porsche959 wrote: »
    The reality is that many modern democratic nations, including Ireland, France, the US, etc, were founded in violence. Interesting that some only single out Israel in this regard. Wonder why that is, hmmm.

    Could you get back to me on this please?
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91606897&postcount=3372


  • #3456
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Pwindedd wrote: »
    If the bombing stops now - what next? does this disappear into the settling dust and then in another 10-15 years we look at more maps where Palestinians are herded into even less land and have even more of their liberties restricted. It's the daily oppression that I actually find the most intolerable. The casualties are obviously appalling - no denying that - but if one country is restricting another countries food imports and their daily autonomy - how is that justifiable. By anyone. How are these the actions of a nation that wants peace. I can see no other motive other than that of illegal land and natural resource "acquisition". Or theft as we know it here. If we leave the war discussions aside for a second does anyone want to explain to me how the actions of the Israeli authorities over the past 50 years are indicative of the search for peace?


    Well Norman Finkelstein suggested that the Palestinians should launch a non-violent campaign under the banner "Our rights under international law and nothing less" and use the support of public opinion to not now accept a peace agreement based on giving up all hope of a proper functioning state just because they have been battered into submission.


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  • #3457
    fedor.2.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,944 ✭✭✭fedor.2.


    tayto lover wrote: »
    The campaign is growing in momentum ---

    ww.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/belfast-demonstrators-remove-israeli-goods-from-shelves-of-sainsburys-in-protest-over-g


    What campaign? A few people take it upon themselves to put some products in a trolley, I presume they were all put back afterwards. Just silliness.


  • #3458
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Isn't it about time somebody "new" joined the thread to tell us again about the "Hamas human shields" as if it hasn't been disproven 100s of times?
    Somebody hasn't checked the rota...


  • #3459
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Isn't it about time somebody "new" joined the thread to tell us again about the "Hamas human shields" as if it hasn't been disproven 100s of times?
    Somebody hasn't checked the rota...


    Due to the massive disproportionate weight of opinion leveled against them they have referred the matter to the UN.


  • #3460
    namloc1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Pwindedd wrote: »
    If the bombing stops now - what next? does this disappear into the settling dust and then in another 10-15 years we look at more maps where Palestinians are herded into even less land and have even more of their liberties restricted. It's the daily oppression that I actually find the most intolerable. The casualties are obviously appalling - no denying that - but if one country is restricting another countries food imports and their daily autonomy - how is that justifiable. By anyone. How are these the actions of a nation that wants peace. I can see no other motive other than that of illegal land and natural resource "acquisition". Or theft as we know it here. If we leave the war discussions aside for a second does anyone want to explain to me how the actions of the Israeli authorities over the past 50 years are indicative of the search for peace?

    Israel has no interest in peace. It wouldn't be in their interests. A peaceful two state solution would require them to tackle the 700k illegal settlers in Palestinian lands. They have no intention of doing so. Indeed Israel plans much more settlements into the future Israel plans more settlements. This is Zionism in action.


  • #3461
    Padraig Mor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,638 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    I don't have that much time to kill, but what's the cliff's notes version of those two points?

    I haven't watched the video but I imagine he tackles two of the most pervasive, and insidious, lies about Israeli history, as follows:

    Myth 1: Israel was established by the UN. The surrounding Arab nations immediately attacked (because they hate Jews) but the plucky Israelis repelled their much stronger foes.
    Truth: The establishment of a Jewish state, and its borders, were a non-legally binding recommendation from the UN General Assembly (to date, Israel leads the world in terms of numbers of UN GA resolutions ignored). The establishment of Israel as a Jewish state was only one of three parts of the resolution, but the Israelis rejected the other two components, which focussed on Israel living in harmony with its neighbours and the establishment of Jerusalem as an international city not "belonging" to any one state. On the date of establishment of Israel, the new Israeli army immediately attacked into the areas mandated as Palestinian by the UN, massacring thousands of civilians and ethnically cleansing their villages; hundreds of thousands more fleed in terror. In the days and weeks after the initiation of attacks on Palestinians by the Israelis, the armies of the other Arab countries responded to the Israeli aggression attempting to stop further land grabs - not particularly successfully. The truth of this is evident from the fact that all the fighting took place in Palestinian areas, not in the Israeli state itself.


    myth 2: In 1967, Israeli was sneakily attacked by the combined armies of the Arab states, but the plucky Israeli army fought off the aggressors.
    Truth: Well, the opposite really. Israel attacked first claiming they had been attacked. When it was proven that they were the aggressors, they changed their story such that they were launching a pre-emptive strike on the Arabs who were about to attack. Lies of course, easily proven by the fact that the Israelis routed the Arab armies so easily - this would not have happened had the Arabs been on a war footing.


    These two myths are particularly disingenous due to the widespread belief in them, even among those opposed to Israeli actions. The simple truth is that, as in 1948 and 1967, Israel has been the aggressor in every major conflict it has been involved in (with the exception of Yom Kippur, itself a move by Egypt to reclaim land stolen by Israel).


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  • #3462
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Isn't it about time somebody "new" joined the thread to tell us again about the "Hamas human shields" as if it hasn't been disproven 100s of times?
    Somebody hasn't checked the rota...

    They probably got the Tel Aviv - Dublin time zone difference all messed up again.....:pac:


  • #3463
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Padraig Mor wrote: »
    I haven't watched the video but I imagine he tackles two of the most pervasive, and insidious, lies about Israeli history, as follows:

    Myth 1: Israel was established by the UN. The surrounding Arab nations immediately attacked (because they hate Jews) but the plucky Israelis repelled their much stronger foes.
    Truth: The establishment of a Jewish state, and its borders, were a non-legally binding recommendation from the UN General Assembly (to date, Israel leads the world in terms of numbers of UN GA resolutions ignored). The establishment of Israel as a Jewish state was only one of three parts of the resolution, but the Israelis rejected the other two components, which focussed on Israel living in harmony with its neighbours and the establishment of Jerusalem as an international city not "belonging" to any one state. On the date of establishment of Israel, the new Israeli army immediately attacked into the areas mandated as Palestinian by the UN, massacring thousands of civilians and ethnically cleansing their villages; hundreds of thousands more fleed in terror. In the days and weeks after the initiation of attacks on Palestinians by the Israelis, the armies of the other Arab countries responded to the Israeli aggression attempting to stop further land grabs - not particularly successfully. The truth of this is evident from the fact that all the fighting took place in Palestinian areas, not in the Israeli state itself.


    myth 2: In 1967, Israeli was sneakily attacked by the combined armies of the Arab states, but the plucky Israeli army fought off the aggressors.
    Truth: Well, the opposite really. Israel attacked first claiming they had been attacked. When it was proven that they were the aggressors, they changed their story such that they were launching a pre-emptive strike on the Arabs who were about to attack. Lies of course, easily proven by the fact that the Israelis routed the Arab armies so easily - this would not have happened had the Arabs been on a war footing.


    These two myths are particularly disingenous due to the widespread belief in them, even among those opposed to Israeli actions. The simple truth is that, as in 1948 and 1967, Israel has been the aggressor in every major conflict it has been involved in (with the exception of Yom Kippur, itself a move by Egypt to reclaim land stolen by Israel).

    Well actually in the video he asserts that Israel knew that the Egyptian army was not yet a credible threat and would need at least another year to prepare and that now was the time to strike as they assumed,rightly,an easy victory. They played up the threat to the Israeli public. He also says that there was considerable difference of opinion between the army and the politicians where the former were more hawkish and attributes this to a generational gap with the army generals being younger and mostly in their 40's,his father being one. It is worth watching on the basis of these finer details.


  • #3464
    Warper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭Warper


    There is no point in Hamas accepting any ceasefire if there is no progress on the lifting of the blockade of Gaza. The slow genocide of the Palestinians will be just that, slow. Israel will just murder more innocent civilians in a few years and we will be back to the same situation. Israel have to lift the blockade or else all these people, just like all the other thousands of Palestinians will have died in vain.


  • #3465
    Tail Docker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,954 ✭✭✭Tail Docker


    Wibbs wrote: »
    It's quite amazing to me how quickly some posters can rattle up links supporting their claims. Almost like they're prepared in advance...

    Very true. I have a lingering suspicion of posters who can bang up detailed links, government stats and tailored figures at the drop of a hat, regardless of what the thread is about. This or any other. It always smacks of "A Pro" to me. Shilly of me, I know.


  • #3466
    Padraig Mor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,638 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    Azwaldo55 wrote: »
    The rockets have killed several Israelis.
    Incorrect. To date, one Israeli citizen has been killed by the barrage of "thousands" of "deadly terror rockets". That person was an Arab Bedouin in the desert, a people the Israeli government have said they will not protect because they are not Jews. One other person was killed by a rocket, a Thai national working in Israel. The total is sometimes misreported as three, but that includes a man killed by mortar (not rocket) fire while bringing supplies to an Israeli army post - hardly an innocent civilian going about his day.

    You think it is acceptable for Hamas terrorists who openly and explicitly want to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews
    Aside from the untruth of the whole statement (despite their undoubted dubious past, Hamas have shown far more interest in peace than Israel - it is well known that they will accept the 1967 boundaries), I find the phrase "kill all the Jews" an unusual form of words for a native English speaker. Yet, pretty much every hardline anti-Palestinian we've seen on this thread has used this exact phrasing. Strange, no?


  • #3467
    HazDanz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,300 ✭✭✭HazDanz


    UNRWA have 86 shelters open for 219,657 Palestinians. The shelters are supposed to hold 800 each. They have 2500 on average in each one.

    What a horrific disgrace.


  • #3468
    hju6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭hju6


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Azwaldo55
    The Palestinians are inspired by the Koran and the Hadiths which command them to kill Jews and infidels and conquer the earth for Islam.

    If that was the case the 4million Palestinians of the territories would have rose against Israel along time ago


  • #3469
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,411 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    porsche959 wrote: »
    BuXt1s2IAAAHV28.jpg:large

    Well of course its anti-israel, such as public opinion was anti-germany due to world war 2.

    What other way is there to take arguing against their actions with gaza?

    So I was ignorant of a lot of other stuff in the comment, doesnt mean I'd care any less for them if I wasn't.

    Screw hamas, screw israel. I pity the people who've had to live their life's through this, whether its in gaza or anywhere.


  • #3470
    The Th!ng
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 464 ✭✭The Th!ng


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    Israel has no interest in peace. It wouldn't be in their interests. A peaceful two state solution would require them to tackle the 700k illegal settlers in Palestinian lands. They have no intention of doing so. Indeed Israel plans much more settlements into the future Israel plans more settlements. This is Zionism in action.

    Not only do the Israelis bulldoze the palestinian homes, but also their graveyards. Even in death a palestinian is not safe from them.


  • #3471
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Tuisceanch wrote: »
    He doesn't hold the same opinion as you do but that doesn't make it bias.ANd you should also make a distinction between the Israeli government policies and Israeli people as a whole. Your opinion is not shared by alot of Jewish people and they would concur with the sentiments expressed by the poster.So you can't accuse him of bias really if you are too be honest and not just hysterical.

    Jewish Voice for Peace
    https://www.facebook.com/JewishVoiceforPeace?fref=nf

    Breaking the Silence

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_the_Silence_%28non-governmental_organization%29

    http://www.btselem.org/

    http://jewishpeaceactivists.blogspot.ie/

    I thought I'd update this post with further information. The following video made by 'Jews in Britain against Genocide'.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qhnz67gsQGg

    Today, 4 August 2014, outside of the offices of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, on the 27th day of Israel’s military attack on the Gazan people, Jews in Britain Against Genocide staged a die-in to commemorate the hundreds of Palestinian children deliberately targeted and killed by Israel. We displayed toys, clothes and replicas of mutilated children and babies smeared red to symbolise the blood of Palestinian children murdered by Israeli forces.


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  • #3472
    Pwindedd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,311 ✭✭✭Pwindedd


    A bit off topic, but by way of an interlude the film "Hannah Arendt" is currently on Netflix. Without giving too much away it focuses on the trial of Adolph Eichmann in early founded Israel, Hannah's reporting of the trial and the Jewish communities reaction to it. I found it fascinating and thought provoking. (Mostly in German with subtitles, but well worth the extra effort, had to share)

    Now then back to the thread with you and those coherent and erudite discussions :-)


  • #3473
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    porsche959 wrote: »
    BuXt1s2IAAAHV28.jpg:large

    None of the atrocities listed in that graphic was, as far as I'm aware, funded, supplied, and internationally defended by the government of the United States.


  • #3474
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Children As Grass


    By Jinjirrie, on August 3rd, 2014
    golden sheaves
    spread in school yard
    salt coast grown,
    resistant stems
    of native centuries
    warned from homes
    to wretched refuge
    without respite
    no shafts to freedom
    where none are safe
    threat of grass
    and budding seed
    shields real estate
    coveted by
    lawnmower men
    with tunnel vision
    of western pretexts,
    colonial deterrents
    to permanence,
    not never again,
    but again and again
    unseen drone buzz
    no fertilising bee
    searing scythe
    explodes from thirsty sky
    row on row ripped
    before flower blown
    monstrous harvest
    in Gaza charnel house
    beneath earth strewn
    with blood and bone
    olive tree kernels awaken

    August 2014


  • #3475
    Contributor 2013
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 162 ✭✭Contributor 2013


    If Palestine lays down their arms, women and children will not be killed in anymore crossfire, no more parents will be burying their children, so on and so forth.

    Fact is fact.


  • #3476
    h2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭h2005


    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    If Palestine lays down their arms, women and children will not be killed in anymore crossfire, no more parents will be burying their children, so on and so forth.

    Fact is fact.

    Saying "fact is fact" doesn't make it a fact. How many Palestinians are armed? The present assault was undertaken without provocation. The only way the Palestinians will be left alone by Israel is if they leave Palestine to the Israelis.


  • #3477
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Hoax alert: Video showing “Hamas using children as human shields” is from Syria
    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/hoax-alert-video-showing-hamas-using-children-human-shields-syria

    Azwaldo,
    I am really keen to clear up Another possible hoax. Can you please explain why you said
    Azwaldo55 wrote: »
    As far as I am concerned Israelis and Palestinians are both loathsome

    When it clearly isn't the case?


  • #3478
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    If Palestine lays down their arms, women and children will not be killed in anymore crossfire, no more parents will be burying their children, so on and so forth.

    Fact is fact.
    It's not crossfire. Israel is murdering them.
    "If only other countries would give up then Israel could steal their land much more easily"...


  • #3479
    AngryHippie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭AngryHippie


    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    If Palestine lays down their arms, women and children will not be killed in anymore crossfire, no more parents will be burying their children, so on and so forth.

    Fact is fact.

    Fiction is also fiction. I think you far too much faith in the Israelis propaganda machine and shills. That faith is unfounded, as they have proven time and time again that they are inching towards the zionist ideal of occupying the entire region.
    If you can't see that in terms of their strategic control of water, high ground and now Gas field resources since 1948, then you are blinkering yourself.
    Stop basing you assumptions on them being as good as their word. They have been ignoring international treaties and the UN since the foundation of their state, as has been pointed out on many occasions on this thread.


  • #3480
    Vandango
    Closed Accounts Posts: 604 ✭✭✭Vandango


    NotASheeple wrote: »
    porsche959 wrote: »
    I will continue to debate, time permitting, with posters I consider rational.

    Multiple posts directed at you all conveniently ignored and that's what you come back with nearly half an hour later? Pretty laughable imo.

    And he never did, so that list of unanswered posts just got bigger and bigger. Yet this was the same poster, who went on a rant in the thread at 5am yesterday (when nobody was about of course) What was it again? 6 consecutive posts? Anyway, kudos to the posters who exposed him and dismantled the nonsense.


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  • #3481
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    Vandango wrote: »
    And he never did, so that list of unanswered posts just got bigger and bigger. Yet this was the same poster, who went on a rant in the thread at 5am yesterday (when nobody was about of course) What was it again? 6 consecutive posts? Anyway, kudos to the posters who exposed him and dismantled the nonsense.

    Exposed me as what now, precisely. Would love to hear this.

    If you think I will respond to people who quote from sites like rense and defame me as Mossad, well, I wouldn't hold your breath.


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