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Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Comments

  • #3182
    comongethappy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    greenflash wrote: »
    Like I said http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91601132&postcount=3152

    Of course its a deliberate tactic..... But the alternative is suicide, so it's a worse tactic from the militants point of view.

    The fact that it just results in more gazan dead is a win-win for Hamas.


  • #3183
    greenflash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 499 ✭✭greenflash


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    UN Shelters?


    No thanks, they have also been targeted by Israel.


    There's plenty on here who have no interest in looking at all angles and could start a fight in a phone box.


  • #3184
    greenflash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 499 ✭✭greenflash


    comongethappy wrote: »
    Of course its a deliberate tactic..... But the alternative is suicide, so it's a worse tactic from the militants point of view.

    The fact that it just results in more gazan dead is a win-win for Hamas.



    I'm amazed at how posters can use complete agreement with my posts as a means of attack.


  • #3185
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,125 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Tuisceanch wrote: »
    About 60,000 African migrants have arrived in Israel since 2006, fleeing unrest in their home countries. But upon arrival in the ostensibly democratic country, the migrants have faced intense persecution and have been branded as "infiltrators" by right-wing politicians and activists.


    They are not the only country to experience this problem or to be faced with racists targeting immigrants. Nevertheless since this thread is dedicated to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict this video is an interesting insight into the nature of that society.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPxv4Aff3IA

    that happens with any insular society, it automatically starts distrusting outsiders of any stripe.

    I met a load of Israelis when i was backpacking. They were either the nicest, friendliest people I've even met or they were insular and wouldn't talk to anyone at all. the friendly ones always shrugged off the others. I could say Hi to them and they'd ignore me. They'd go to kosher restaurants or cook their own food in pots they brought with them (So the food would be kosher). They only ever hang out with fellow Israelis who were like them.

    I saw them an a combination of a staunch unionist/republican combined with a seventh day adventist. I mean they were incredibly politicised and incredibly religious. They really didn't mix with others.

    the weird thing about Israel is that the conservative religious bunch is growing in power. It's not mentioned much but the liberal younger generation are leaving Israel in droves. The people who emigrate to Israel are very religious and very orthodox. they believe that God granted their people that land and that they should get it back.


  • #3186
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    greenflash wrote: »
    The point is that should Palestinian militants be inclined to find open spaces away from civilian population centres they could do so, but instead select residential/functional locations from which to launch their ineffective rockets and mortars.
    How do you tell terrorists what to do?

    How would you go about telling Al-Queda, for example, that they should be inclined to use military personnel in engagements and not use children as suicide bombers?

    Hamas are considered a terrorist organisation, yet innocent civilians who are not a part of that terrorist organisation are considered acceptable losses.

    It goes to show that in the IDF mindset there is no separation. They call Hamas a terrorist organisation yet consider all of Palestine accountable for Hamas's actions.

    It's one or the other, you can't be at war with an entire nation and call their government terrorists at the same time.

    Hamas deliberately use civilians not as shields, but as fodder. Propaganda, more followers to the cause, whatever. This is known. How do you tell a terrorist organisation to obey the rules? You can't.


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  • #3187
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,411 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    greenflash wrote: »
    No thanks, they have also been targeted by Israel.


    There's plenty on here who have no interest in looking at all angles and could start a fight in a phone box.

    No thanks what?

    Only some of the areas Israel seems to target seems to of had Hamas activity near by. Most of what we hear about doesn't have any at all, in particular all the UN Shelters they have bombarded.

    For someone who wants to look at all the angles, why hold a loose thread so tightly?


  • #3188
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Grayson wrote: »
    that happens with any insular society, it automatically starts distrusting outsiders of any stripe.

    I met a load of Israelis when i was backpacking. They were either the nicest, friendliest people I've even met or they were insular and wouldn't talk to anyone at all. the friendly ones always shrugged off the others. I could say Hi to them and they'd ignore me. They'd go to kosher restaurants or cook their own food in pots they brought with them (So the food would be kosher). They only ever hang out with fellow Israelis who were like them.

    I saw them an a combination of a staunch unionist/republican combined with a seventh day adventist. I mean they were incredibly politicised and incredibly religious. They really didn't mix with others.

    the weird thing about Israel is that the conservative religious bunch is growing in power. It's not mentioned much but the liberal younger generation are leaving Israel in droves. The people who emigrate to Israel are very religious and very orthodox. they believe that God granted their people that land and that they should get it back.

    Yes I would be loathe to tar everybody with the same brush and I don't as I've posted many videos of anti-war demonstrators in Israel and there are probably many more who do not wish to stick their heads above the parapet which is understandable. The video,of course, highlights the prominent influence of leading members of the Knesset and also religious leaders who are inciting this hatred and that coupled with the vile rhetoric of other leading members of the Knesset calling for genocide of Palestinians should cause people serious pause for thought before suggesting that people are arguing the support of terrorism by highlighting the plight of the Palestinians and the gross misrepresentation of the truth of the situation. Balance requires supporting your assertions that Israel acted in a spirit of self defense because even the justifications that are used to support that case,if accepted,are not compelling and if you had a mind to dig deeper you might find they are completely without basis.Since this information is necessarily in the hands of the US government and the UN then there should have been no hesitation in declaring Israels actions an 'Act of Aggression.


  • #3189
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    old_aussie wrote: »
    Middle East conflict, easiest to explain, hardest to solve.

    Why has it become so hard to solve?

    http://www.prageruniversity.com/Political-Science/Middle-East-Problem.html


    Post bollocks, then run for cover?


  • #3190
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    So Hamas are a sound bunch of lads and they don't fight from residential areas? And they don't use human shields? Do Israelis purposely target schools to kill children? Why?


  • #3191
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,411 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Willfarman wrote: »
    So Hamas are a sound bunch of lads and they don't fight from residential areas? And they don't use human shields? Do Israelis purposely target schools to kill children? Why?

    No one has said Hamas are a sound bunch of lads.

    Israel doesn't appear to care where it targets, or who is affected as long as something is going to get hit.


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  • #3192
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    So Israel (and their defenders on here) consistently claim Hamas are using civilians as human shields without a single shred of evidence but then it turns out that this is a favoured (illegal) tactic used by the IDF!


    http://www.rense.com/general67/idf.htm
    Israeli Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz said on Tuesday that he would appeal against the High Court of Justice's ruling to ban the use of Palestinian civilians by the army as "human shields" in operations against suspected militants. 
    The Israeli army have used Palestinian civilians as "shields" during military operations to search houses thought to be booby-trapped or enter homes of suspected Palestinian militants

    And yet some will still claim Israel can do no.wrong and that the IDF are not the terrorists in this fight.


  • #3193
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Willfarman wrote: »
    So Hamas are a sound bunch of lads and they don't fight from residential areas? And they don't use human shields? Do Israelis purposely target schools to kill children? Why?

    So far the only evidence posted proving human shields are used is by the Israeli IDF. If they don't purposely target the UN shelters why do they manage to hit them.so often? Are the IDF gunners inept?


  • #3194
    user2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,071 ✭✭✭user2011


    TommyKnocker wrote: »
    OMG, Well done the London Times and shame on the US papers who ran with this Ad. And people don't think that Zionists have control of the media.

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.609096

    Don't do as we do, do as we say

    http://www.rense.com/general67/idf.htm

    If this post doesn't open more eyes to the evil that is within the Israeli government/army I don't know what will.

    Legally looking to use innocent people as shields for the protection of the IDF :(:mad:


  • #3195
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Willfarman wrote: »
    So Hamas are a sound bunch of lads and they don't fight from residential areas? And they don't use human shields? Do Israelis purposely target schools to kill children? Why?

    As I don't fancy typing it all again

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91525813&postcount=1142

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91492276&postcount=32

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91594452&postcount=3070


  • #3196
    TommyKnocker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭TommyKnocker


    Willfarman wrote: »
    So Hamas are a sound bunch of lads and they don't fight from residential areas? And they don't use human shields? Do Israelis purposely target schools to kill children? Why?

    I will just leave this here for you to read

    http://www.salon.com/2014/07/18/israels_military_has_no_moral_superiority_and_its_time_the_media_covered_gaza_fairly/
    Human Shields
    While human rights organizations haven’t yet addressed “human shields” allegations in the ongoing round of Israel-Gaza violence, they did after the 2009 round when Israel killed at least 773 Palestinian civilians, compared to three Israeli civilian casualties (a ratio of 257:1), and used the same “human shields” argument to deflect responsibility for those deaths. When the dust settled, Amnesty International investigated the matter and concluded that there was “no evidence that [Palestinian] rockets were launched from residential houses or buildings while civilians were in these buildings.” More attention-worthy was the report’s note that,
    in the cases of [Israeli] precision missiles or tank shells which killed [Palestinian] civilians in their homes, no fighters were present in the houses that were struck and Amnesty International delegates found no indication that there had been any armed confrontations or other military activity in the immediate vicinity at the time of the attack.
    Israel’s Use of Human Shields
    By contrast, the same report found that “in several cases Israeli soldiers also used [Palestinian] civilians, including children, as ‘human shields’.” Going back in time just a little further to put this into context is important: when the Israeli Supreme Court ruled in 2005 that the Israeli military had to stop using Palestinian civilians as human shields, the Israeli “defense” establishment objected to the ruling. The appeal against the ruling failed, and the practice remains technically illegal, but Israel implicitly encourages it to continue by offering an “inadequate … slap on the wrist,” as Human Rights Watch put it, to Israeli soldiers caught using this reprehensible tactic.
    This reveals two important things: the first is the moral hypocrisy and chutzpah on display when Israel ignores its own use of human shields as it accuses its enemies of using them. The second is Israel’s self-contradicting logic: If Palestinian militants had such disregard for Palestinian civilian lives, why was the Israeli military so invested in maintaining the ability to use Palestinians as shields? The fact that the Israeli army wants to use Palestinian human shields actually proves that they believe Palestinian militants prefer not to endanger their own civilians.

    By Falsely Associating Itself with Judaism, Zionism Uses Jews Everywhere as Human Shields


  • #3197
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Willfarman wrote: »
    So Hamas are a sound bunch of lads and they don't fight from residential areas? And they don't use human shields? Do Israelis purposely target schools to kill children? Why?

    No, no choice.
    No.
    Yes.
    Because they hate Palestinians? Only a guess.

    All proven stuff really.
    Better call them terrorists or something to "prove" they're the bad guys, like on Fox.


  • #3198
    greenflash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 499 ✭✭greenflash


    Dravokivich wrote: »

    For someone who wants to look at all the angles, why hold a loose thread so tightly?

    Because those are the only angles you lot are interested in. If I just posted the words 'genocide murder babies hospital zionists lebensraum IDF settlements targeting children' in any order I could just sit back and count the thanks without having any understanding of the situation.


  • #3199
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    greenflash wrote: »
    Because those are the only angles you lot are interested in. If I just posted the words 'genocide murder babies hospital zionists lebensraum IDF settlements targeting children' in any order I could just sit back and count the thanks without having any understanding of the situation.


    Have you actually bothered reading anything that's been put up for you?


  • #3200
    TommyKnocker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭TommyKnocker


    One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter ;)


  • #3201
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    greenflash wrote: »
    Because those are the only angles you lot are interested in. If I just posted the words 'genocide murder babies hospital zionists lebensraum IDF settlements targeting children' in any order I could just sit back and count the thanks without having any understanding of the situation.

    Which is why people don't do that but rather provide lengthy discourses quoting numerous sources and ask for comments on the assertions made in those pieces. All that is asked in return is that you provide some basis for your own assertions and follow the same example. Bleating the same mantra over and over again does not promote any understanding.


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  • #3202
    greenflash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 499 ✭✭greenflash


    Nodin wrote: »
    Have you actually bothered reading anything that's been put up for you?

    To be honest, no. I find the role you and others have taken on as self-appointed inquisitors of anyone who dares hold an opinion marginally differing to your own is sickening.


  • #3203
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,411 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    greenflash wrote: »
    Because those are the only angles you lot are interested in. If I just posted the words 'genocide murder babies hospital zionists lebensraum IDF settlements targeting children' in any order I could just sit back and count the thanks without having any understanding of the situation.

    No, it was to show what you were enquiring about isn't actually much of a discussion point for debate, unless you want to focus entirely on hypothetical scenarios.

    For as long as they continue to to bombard UN Shelters (which they've been notified about numerous times) anything about them warning people and targeting areas where there has been Hamas activity is bullshít to paint themselves as victims instead of the people they attack.

    They didn't just get these UN Shelters confused with somewhere else. They willfully ignored the UN.


  • #3204
    greenflash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 499 ✭✭greenflash


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    No, it was to show what you were enquiring about isn't actually much of a discussion point for debate, unless you want to focus entirely on hypothetical scenarios.

    For as long as they continue to to bombard UN Shelters (which they've been notified about numerous times) anything about them warning people and targeting areas where there has been Hamas activity is bullshít to paint themselves as victims instead of the people they attack.

    And where have I denied this or defended Israel's actions?

    See my reply to Noddy above.


  • #3205
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,411 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    greenflash wrote: »
    And where have I denied this or defended Israel's actions?

    See my reply to Noddy above.

    I never said you did. I replied on the point you were making, of it being a reaction by Israel, to a location from where the action by Hamas occurred.

    But they've targeted more areas where Hamas were not involved.


  • #3206
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    bumper234 wrote: »
    So Israel (and their defenders on here) consistently claim Hamas are using civilians as human shields without a single shred of evidence but then it turns out that this is a favoured (illegal) tactic used by the IDF!


    http://www.rense.com/general67/idf.htm

    And yet some will still claim Israel can do no.wrong and that the IDF are not the terrorists in this fight.

    You're quoting a notorious Jew hating website rense.org and your post gets a whole bunch of thanks just because it says something critical of Israel.

    Says it all really.


  • #3207
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    If everyone would only calm down and sit down together and have a cup of tea.


  • #3208
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,411 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    porsche959 wrote: »
    You're quoting a notorious Jew hating website rense.org and your post gets a whole bunch of thanks just because it says something critical of Israel.

    Says it all really.

    4 is a whole bunch?

    Also, a couple of posts down linked to some Amnesty International findings.


  • #3209
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    greenflash wrote: »
    To be honest, no.
    I think it's far more telling how the pro-Zionist people on this thread will actually applaud you for this (admitting not reading anything posted here).


  • #3210
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    greenflash wrote: »
    To be honest, no. I find the role you and others have taken on as self-appointed inquisitors of anyone who dares hold an opinion marginally differing to your own is sickening.

    Well if you log onto a discussion board and can't bear having your notions challenged and are reduced to insulting others then maybe you should find somewhere to go where you can remain in your comfort zone.


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  • #3211
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    porsche959 wrote: »
    You're quoting a notorious Jew hating website rense.org and your post gets a whole bunch of thanks just because it says something critical of Israel.

    Says it all really.
    The facts he was quoting have been abundantly proven at this stage, whatever particular source he has linked to here.
    I presume you can't refute anything then since the best you've got is to attack the specific source instead of the widely acknowledged facts reproduced there?


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