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Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Comments

  • #1892
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    wes wrote: »
    Interesting that they also say this:


    As I said earlier, rather odd that in the exact same story, they claim they have no way of knowing what happened, but have decided to condemn Hamas in anyways. Sorry, but that is completely bizarre imho......

    I sincerely doubt they'd be criticising them if they didn't think they were on firm ground.

    Also, Hamas spokesman on RTE stressing "they (the soldiers killed to break the ceasefire) shouldn't have been where they were in the first place." no denial that they had broken the ceasefire.


  • #1893
    Fiery mutant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,547 ✭✭✭Fiery mutant


    wes wrote: »
    Thanks for that:


    Above emphasis mine, interesting that he blame Hamas, and then they says they had no way to verify exactly what happened.......... Pretty bizare thing for him to blame Hamas, and they state right after, that he has no way of actually verifying if what he said is true.....
    wes wrote: »
    Interesting that they also say this:


    As I said earlier, rather odd that in the exact same story, they claim they have no way of knowing what happened, but have decided to condemn Hamas in anyways. Sorry, but that is completely bizarre imho......


    Unless he is standing in front of them when it happens, he has no way of verifying anything, they go by the reports available to him.

    "The secretary-general condemns in the strongest terms the reported violation by Hamas of the mutually agreed humanitarian ceasefire which commenced this morning," UN spokesman Stephane Dujarric said. "He is shocked and profoundly disappointed by these developments."

    UN political chief Jeffrey Feltman told reporters that Ban is "profoundly disappointed" that the assurances from Hamas were not kept.


    From the same article.

    We should defend our way of life to an extent that any attempt on it is crushed, so that any adversary will never make such an attempt in the future.



  • #1894
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I sincerely doubt they'd be criticising them if they didn't think they were on firm ground.

    Also, Hamas spokesman on RTE stressing "they (the soldiers killed to break the ceasefire) shouldn't have been where they were in the first place." no denial that they had broken the ceasefire.

    They have publicly denied it elsewhere, and the IDF have admitted to be engaged in an operation to destroy tunnels at the time.

    So, again we are back to the UN saying we blame Hamas, but can't prove it, which is bizarre.


  • #1895
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I sincerely doubt they'd be criticising them if they didn't think they were on firm ground.

    Also, Hamas spokesman on RTE stressing "they (the soldiers killed to break the ceasefire) shouldn't have been where they were in the first place." no denial that they had broken the ceasefire.
    As part of a ceasefire do you not reckon the IDF should **** off back where they came from, or should they just hang around Gaza in their tanks and order a pizza while waiting for the next school/hospital target to be radioed in?


  • #1896
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    wes wrote: »
    They have publicly denied it elsewhere, and the IDF have admitted to be engaged in an operation to destroy tunnels at the time.

    So, again we are back to the UN saying we blame Hamas, but can't prove it, which is bizarre.
    While at the same time the IDF clearly admit they never had a ceasefire in the first place as they were still in Gaza on military operations.


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  • #1897
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Fiery mutant wrote: »
    Unless he is standing in front of them when it happens, he has no way of verifying anything, they go by the reports available to him.

    "The secretary-general condemns in the strongest terms the reported violation by Hamas of the mutually agreed humanitarian ceasefire which commenced this morning," UN spokesman Stephane Dujarric said. "He is shocked and profoundly disappointed by these developments."

    From the same article.

    You don't have to be there to witness something to verify it. The fact is that in the exact same story the spokes person says this, as I pointed out earlier:
    Underscoring that the UN has no independent means to verify exactly what happened to derail the pause, the spokesperson said that, according to the latest reports, two Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) soldiers were killed and one taken captive after the humanitarian ceasefire came into effect.

    Simply put, I hold the UN to a high standard, that if they are going to blame someone on something, they should have the ability to verify what actually happened before pointing fingers, and the entire condemnation is completely and utterly bizarre, where the spokes person admits that he actually has no proof to back up his condemnation.

    If he was so sure, why mention that he can't verify what actually happened? If he was sure, surely he wouldn't need to say that.


  • #1898
    Fiery mutant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,547 ✭✭✭Fiery mutant


    But when there is an explosion near a school or hospital and civilians are killed, they blame Israel, even though they can't actually prove it. You will believe them then won't you, without any actual proof.

    Bizarre.

    We should defend our way of life to an extent that any attempt on it is crushed, so that any adversary will never make such an attempt in the future.



  • #1899
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    As part of a ceasefire do you not reckon the IDF should **** off back where they came from, or should they just hang around Gaza in their tanks and order a pizza while waiting for the next school/hospital target to be radioed in?

    A ceasefire doesn't mean troops are moved back. It just means a ceasefire.


  • #1900
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    While at the same time the IDF clearly admit they never had a ceasefire in the first place as they were still in Gaza on military operations.

    A ceasefire means the ceasing of fire. Clearly the UN a confident in claiming that Hamas broke the ceasefire.


  • #1901
    Fiery mutant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,547 ✭✭✭Fiery mutant


    wes wrote: »
    You don't have to be there to witness something to verify it. The fact is that in the exact same story the Ban Ki Moon says this, as I pointed out earlier:



    Simply put, I hold the UN to a high standard, that if they are going to blame someone on something, they should have the ability to verify what actually happened before pointing fingers, and the entire condemnation is completely and utterly bizarre, where Ban Ki Moon admits that he actually has no proof to back up his condemnation.

    If he was so sure, why mention that he can't verify what actually happened? If he was sure, surely he wouldn't need to say that.

    He didn't say it, a spokesperson did. Perhaps you should stop holding them to that high standard, if they have a habit of going around making statements without having any proof to back them up.

    We should defend our way of life to an extent that any attempt on it is crushed, so that any adversary will never make such an attempt in the future.



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  • #1902
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    16:40 today

    Oxfam
    tweets: As well as 24 medical facilities, bombs even hitting ambulances all over Gaza. No escape, we need #ceasefirenow


  • #1903
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Fiery mutant wrote: »
    But when there is an explosion near a school or hospital and civilians are killed, they blame Israel, even though they can't actually prove it. You will believe them then won't you, without any actual proof.

    Bizarre.

    Care to provide a link, to where the UN condemns Israel for attacking one of there schools, and then admits in the exact same story, that they can't verify a thing? I am going to go out on a limb, and say that if such a thing existed someone would have pointed it out.

    As for not believing the UN, they are themselves saying they have no way to verify what happened, and not me. I am just pointing that fact out.


  • #1904
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    wes wrote: »
    You don't have to be there to witness something to verify it. The fact is that in the exact same story the spokes person says this, as I pointed out earlier:



    Simply put, I hold the UN to a high standard, that if they are going to blame someone on something, they should have the ability to verify what actually happened before pointing fingers, and the entire condemnation is completely and utterly bizarre, where the spokes person admits that he actually has no proof to back up his condemnation.

    If he was so sure, why mention that he can't verify what actually happened? If he was sure, surely he wouldn't need to say that.

    Ban Ki Moon, the world's premier diplomat, clearly feels he has enough evidence at his disposal to criticise Hama for ending the ceasefire. He would not have done that lightly.


  • #1905
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Fiery mutant wrote: »
    He didn't say it, a spokesperson did. Perhaps you should stop holding them to that high standard, if they have a habit of going around making statements without having any proof to back them up.

    I corrected my post after noticing my mistake......

    Secondly, it was a spokes person for the UN, admitting they have no way to verify what happened. It kind of qualifies the condemnation if they can't verify if what they say happened actually you know happened.


  • #1906
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    A ceasefire means the ceasing of fire. Clearly the UN a confident in claiming that Hamas broke the ceasefire.

    Admitting that they can't verify who broke the ceasefire in the same story, isn't what I would call confident at all.....


  • #1907
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Tuisceanch wrote: »
    16:40 today

    Oxfam
    tweets: As well as 24 medical facilities, bombs even hitting ambulances all over Gaza. No escape, we need #ceasefirenow

    Yep, we need a ceasefire ASAP, one that even Hamas holds fast to this time.


  • #1908
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    19:53:
    The Red Cross has put out a statement saying it is appalled at attacks on Palestine Red Crescent Society hospitals and offices in Gaza. Two Red Crescent workers have been killed and 40 injured since the start of the offensive.


  • #1909
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Ban Ki Moon, the world's premier diplomat, clearly feels he has enough evidence at his disposal to criticise Hama for ending the ceasefire. He would not have done that lightly.

    Then why in the exact same story say that they can't verify what happened? If they were so confident, why would they say that? BTW, saying they can't verify what happened is admitting that they don't actually have enough evidence, surely. If they did have enough evidence, the why say that they can't verify what happened. Again, the whole thing is bizarre imho.


  • #1910
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Ban Ki Moon, the world's premier diplomat, clearly feels he has enough evidence at his disposal to criticise Hama for ending the ceasefire. He would not have done that lightly.

    but yet not enough evidence to haul the israeli government up on war (and i use that term very loosely) crimes? funny how that works.


  • #1911
    Fiery mutant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,547 ✭✭✭Fiery mutant


    So if they can't verify what happened, why criticise Hamas for breaking the ceasefire?

    Anyway, this will go round in circles, just like the conflict, so I'm going to bed.

    We should defend our way of life to an extent that any attempt on it is crushed, so that any adversary will never make such an attempt in the future.



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  • #1912
    Mosby61
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43 ✭Mosby61


    I do sympathise with Israel as I know exactly what position they find themselves in with the world turning against them due to a large amount of propaganda.

    I think a ceasefire is a must and will happen soon.


  • #1913
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Fiery mutant wrote: »
    So if they can't verify what happened, why criticise Hamas for breaking the ceasefire?

    That is a valid question, and what I am getting at. Look its perfectly possible that Hamas broke the ceasefire, but I find the entire story from the UN to make no sense. They condemn Hamas, and they say they have no way to verify what happened. So what the hell are they up to exactly?


  • #1914
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    A ceasefire means the ceasing of fire. Clearly the UN a confident in claiming that Hamas broke the ceasefire.
    Sorry, nope. IDF said they would continue military operations "against tunnels" in Gaza. There never was a ceasefire.


  • #1915
    ireland.man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭ireland.man


    Mosby61 wrote: »
    I do sympathise with Israel as I know exactly what position they find themselves in with the world turning against them due to a large amount of propaganda.

    I think a ceasefire is a must and will happen soon.

    Yeah, my heart bleeds for Israel when those horrible monsters use that country's child victims in their anti-Israel propaganda....


  • #1916
    miss tickle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 242 ✭✭miss tickle


    donegal__road wrote: »
    Israel's Iron Dome's interceptors have struck down 87% of the Hamas rockets.

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2014/07/economist-explains-12


    By the way, when I was a student in Derry 20 years ago, the RUC station was right beside the college on the Strand Road.

    Also in Derry, the primary and secondary schools at Rosemount on the edge of the Creggan were next door to each other and right beside them was the RUC station, heavily protected by the british army....human shield anyone?

    In fairness, the effectiveness of the Iron Dome has been debunked, this article for example puts it's effectiveness at 5%, and anyone interested in it's use as an instrument of propaganda as opposed to an actual defense should research it more thoroughly. But as we all know at this stage well funded propaganda is the best form of defense. Whoever thought this up must be laughing their arses off now.
    http://scholarsandrogues.com/2014/07/29/the-contrails-have-it-iron-dome-is-a-dud/


  • #1917
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Fiery mutant wrote: »
    So if they can't verify what happened, why criticise Hamas for breaking the ceasefire?

    Anyway, this will go round in circles, just like the conflict, so I'm going to bed.
    Dunno, if their own civilian shelters are deliberately targeted by the IDF, who have history with murdering UN soldiers, why are there no repercussions?


  • #1918
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    A ceasefire doesn't mean troops are moved back. It just means a ceasefire.

    Not correct, a ceasefire means you do not engage in offensive military operations. A ceasefire also means, that advanced forward/Recon units have to disengaged from their positions to prevent an engagement with enemy forces. So the most glaringly obvious question here is. Why was the IDF engaged in an offensives search and destroy operation in Palestinian territory (Rafah), when they were supposed to be adhering to a 72hr ceasefire?
    The army said they believe the soldier went missing in the Rafah area of Gaza when the Israeli military was attacked during a continued operation to destroy tunnels they suspect are used by militants to gain access into Israel.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israeli-soldier-feared-captured-in-tunnel-attack-by-militants-9642469.html

    So a combat engagement occurred while the IDF where engaged in a search & destroy operation. In other words, an offensive military operation in contravention of the agreed 72hr ceasefire. This operation was conducted in the Rafah area of southern Gaza. In other words, in Palestinian territory. Conducting a search and destroy operation in Palestinian territory during an agreed ceasefire. Is a breach of said ceasefire.
    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Yep, we need a ceasefire ASAP

    We certainly do need a ceasefire and hopefully the next time, the IDF won't have advanced units engaging in search and destroy operations during it.


  • #1919
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Mosby61 wrote: »
    I do sympathise with Israel as I know exactly what position they find themselves in with the world turning against them due to a large amount of propaganda.
    Yes, Israeli propaganda has turned a lot of the world against them alright. Pity for them it's so transparent to everybody outside of the trailer park Faux News watcher.


  • #1920
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    So Hamas now denying they took the soldier:

    Hamas denies taking missing Israeli soldier

    Maybe, Hamas are lieing, but they tend not to lie about capturing Israeli soldiers, they tend to make a bit deal about that kind of thing.

    They are claiming that he died as did there militants.


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  • #1921
    Mosby61
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43 ✭Mosby61


    ireland.man wrote: »
    Yeah, my heart bleeds for Israel when those horrible monsters use that country's child victims in their anti-Israel propaganda....
    Completely ignoring Hamas and the role they play in this? Hiding weapons in schools and hospitals and breaking ceasefires. Not to mention the atrocious Hamas charter.


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