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Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Comments

  • #1532
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Tuisceanch wrote: »
    Yes but that is just anecdotal evidence.You have to admit that and as a budding journalist surely you couldn't base a factual piece on that?

    Base a piece on what he saw with his own eyes and what he was told? What else is he supposed to do?


  • #1533
    pedro1234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 190 ✭✭pedro1234


    wretcheddomain wrote: »
    Why should we believe you?

    Did I ask you to? I was asked where my opinion came from and I responded.


  • #1534
    pedro1234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 190 ✭✭pedro1234


    user2011 wrote: »
    So it was votes for cash? and not guns.... that was nice of them

    No. Hamas do you a favour and then you owe them. Your repayment can be anything. From physically helping them with their duties to voting for them - whatever.


  • #1535
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    Base a piece on what he saw with his own eyes and what he was told? What else is he supposed to do?

    Try to independently verify the facts not just accept what's presented to you...


  • #1536
    Phonehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭Phonehead


    pedro1234 wrote: »
    No. Hamas do you a favour and then you owe them. Your repayment can be anything. From physically helping them with their duties to voting for them - whatever.

    Seems like they are well suited to Western Dmocracy then!


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  • #1537
    pedro1234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 190 ✭✭pedro1234


    RustyNut wrote: »
    Try to independently verify the facts not just accept what's presented to you...

    Well the Hamas "favour" is well known. Even Christopher Hitchens spoke a length about it.


  • #1538
    user2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,071 ✭✭✭user2011


    pedro1234 wrote: »
    No. Hamas do you a favour and then you owe them. Your repayment can be anything. From physically helping them with their duties to voting for them - whatever.

    now you respond.. :pac:

    What would Hamas's favour be to them?


  • #1539
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    pedro1234 wrote: »
    Hamas called around to everyone who owed them in the weeks coming up to the elections. They were reminded of their debt, and told to vote in favour of Hamas. They were armed when they made these calls.

    This is what I mean when I say "Palestinians voted with guns to their heads".

    I saw them calling to a few places when I was there and I asked my guide what the craic was.

    Now maybe he was full of crap, but why should I not believe him?

    Did you report what you witnessed to the election observers, so that it could be investigated?

    They all found the elections to be free and fair, and I do find it hard to take your word over all the other observers who were there, and didn't report any such events, and I also find it hard to believe if what your saying was true, and no witnesses came forward to report this behavior to the election observers.


  • #1540
    pedro1234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 190 ✭✭pedro1234


    user2011 wrote: »
    now you respond.. :pac:

    What would Hamas's favour be to them?

    Taking their kids to hospital and paying for the treatment.

    They help out locally like this in order to gain support, but you ultimately owe them.

    It's very mobish.


  • #1541
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    Base a piece on what he saw with his own eyes and what he was told? What else is he supposed to do?


    It's an opinion piece and since the counter argument is that internationally recognized monitors deemed the election fair then he needs to to argue his point using similar sources.


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  • #1542
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    pedro1234 wrote: »
    Taking their kids to hospital and paying for the treatment.

    They help out locally like this in order to gain support, but you ultimately owe them.

    It's very mobish.

    So Hamas provide social services to the people of Gaza and you see that as bribery for a vote.


  • #1543
    Chance The Rapper
    Closed Accounts Posts: 494 ✭✭Chance The Rapper


    pedro1234 wrote: »
    Taking their kids to hospital and paying for the treatment.

    They help out locally like this in order to gain support, but you ultimately owe them.

    It's very mobish.

    Sounds like the irish politicians with an added bonus of having treatment paid for


  • #1544
    Phonehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭Phonehead


    pedro1234 wrote: »
    Taking their kids to hospital and paying for the treatment.

    They help out locally like this in order to gain support, but you ultimately owe them.

    It's very mobish.

    So kind of like filling potholes, putting a friendly word in when grants are being handed out, getting people bumped up social housing lists, getting people medical cards, getting people off minor offences....


  • #1545
    pedro1234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 190 ✭✭pedro1234


    wes wrote: »
    Did you report what you witnessed to the election observers, so that it could be investigated?

    They all found the elections to be free and fair, and I do find it hard to take your word over all the other observers who were there, and didn't report any such events, and I also find it hard to believe if what your saying was true, and no witnesses came forward to report this behavior to the election observers.

    Well think about it, how many observers of IRA activities came forward? Not a lot right? Hamas are not exactly a reasonable outfit. They've killed people who went against them. If you were living in Gaza would you really try to make a stand against them? Who would you turn to, who would you report this to? Who would keep you safe after the fact?

    A lot of the Palestinian people are held at ransom by these savages.


  • #1546
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    pedro1234 wrote: »
    Taking their kids to hospital and paying for the treatment.

    They help out locally like this in order to gain support, but you ultimately owe them.

    It's very mobish.

    But that's the nature of politics.Bertie was notorious for similar behaviour.


  • #1547
    pedro1234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 190 ✭✭pedro1234


    Chance The Rapper wrote: »
    Sounds like the irish politicians with an added bonus of having treatment paid for

    There's not many Irish politicians who would kidnap and kill you for not repaying a debt to them.


  • #1548
    mickstupp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,764 ✭✭✭mickstupp


    I've been away for a hundred and twenty pages or so. Has anyone come up with an acceptable way to justify child murder yet?

    Or are they still busily trying to shift the focus away from the morally reprehensible actions of the Israelis? *takes a quick look* Yep, never mind.


  • #1549
    mooseknunkle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,427 ✭✭✭mooseknunkle


    pedro1234 wrote: »
    Hamas called around to everyone who owed them in the weeks coming up to the elections. They were reminded of their debt, and told to vote in favour of Hamas. They were armed when they made these calls.

    This is what I mean when I say "Palestinians voted with guns to their heads".

    I saw them calling to a few places when I was there and I asked my guide what the craic was.

    Now maybe he was full of crap, but why should I not believe him?

    So your just walking around Gaza and there is people putting guns to other people heads..then you turn to your guide "whats the craic over there with them lads,eh?" :rolleyes:


  • #1550
    user2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,071 ✭✭✭user2011


    pedro1234 wrote: »
    Taking their kids to hospital and paying for the treatment.

    They help out locally like this in order to gain support, but you ultimately owe them.

    It's very mobish.

    If someone took my child to get treatment and payed for it I'd owe them whole lot more then vote you wouldn't be needing a gun to my head to be telling me to do it.

    It sounds like any other politician doing their work looking to curry favour with the voters.


  • #1551
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    pedro1234 wrote: »
    Well think about it, how many observers of IRA activities came forward? Not a lot right? Hamas are not exactly a reasonable outfit. They've killed people who went against them. If you were living in Gaza would you really try to make a stand against them? Who would you turn to, who would you report this to? Who would keep you safe after the fact?

    A lot of the Palestinian people are held at ransom by these savages.

    Well done you managed to drag the thread ot there for a little while, but how is any of this relevant to bombing Palestinian baby's as they sleep in UN schools?


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  • #1552
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    pedro1234 wrote: »
    Well think about it, how many observers of IRA activities came forward? Not a lot right? Hamas are not exactly a reasonable outfit. They've killed people who went against them. If you were living in Gaza would you really try to make a stand against them? Who would you turn to, who would you report this to? Who would keep you safe after the fact?

    A lot of the Palestinian people are held at ransom by these savages.

    But surely given the traumatised nature of the society you can not expect many moderate voices to be heard. What % of moderate voices of Israeli society are making themselves heard.


  • #1553
    Putin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 686 ✭✭✭Putin


    pedro1234 wrote: »
    There's not many Irish politicians who would kidnap and kill you for not repaying a debt to them.

    A busy little bee aren't, quite day in the Israeli embassy? Thankfully there aren't any Irish politicians, like the Israelis who stand up in the Knesset and celebrate the deaths of Palestinian women & children. And even welcomed it, the war mongering, uncivilised bastárds that they are.


  • #1554
    pedro1234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 190 ✭✭pedro1234


    mooseknunkle wrote: »
    So your just walking around Gaza and there is people putting guns to other people heads..then you turn to your guide "whats the craic over there with them lads,eh?" :rolleyes:

    You clearly have issues with reading comprehension. I asked if my guide if he knew who the armed men were and why they were calling around to some places.

    Is that an unreasonable thing to ask?


  • #1555
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    pedro1234 wrote: »
    Well think about it, how many observers of IRA activities came forward? Not a lot right? Hamas are not exactly a reasonable outfit. They've killed people who went against them.

    Some did come forward in regard to the IRA, didn't they? Also, the situation isn't exactly comparable, as there was a viable alternative in the form of the admittedly corrupt Fatah.

    Also. according to the international observers the elections were fair. So again, I find it very hard to believe, that at least a few people did not come forward. Surely, some Fatah supporters or someone else would have come forward.

    I am sure such witnesses would have been given protection by the International community, as no one is really much of a fan of Hamas.
    pedro1234 wrote: »
    If you were living in Gaza would you really try to make a stand against them?

    They won the election in the West Bank and not just Gaza. Surely someone somewhere would have come forward, or have been witnessed by the International observers.
    pedro1234 wrote: »
    Who would you turn to, who would you report this to? Who would keep you safe after the fact?

    A lot of the Palestinian people are held at ransom by these savages.

    Fatah, or the International observers could have provided protection. Sure, witnessed could have been given refuge in the EU or the US. So, again I come to the lack of witnesses who reported this and again why didn't you report this to the election commission, so that they could investigate?

    Sorry, but you have yet to provide any reason for me to believe your claims over that of the myriad of International observers, and I find it strange that you didn't report this behavior to them......


  • #1556
    pedro1234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 190 ✭✭pedro1234


    RustyNut wrote: »
    Well done you managed to drag the thread ot there for a little while, but how is any of this relevant to bombing Palestinian baby's as they sleep in UN schools?

    My aim wasn't to drag the thread anywhere. You're berating me for answering questions. Had I chose to ignore the questions asked and told you to get on with the subject at hand I would have been lambasted, would I not?


  • #1557
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    I think the problem is that the phrase "Palestinians voted with guns to their heads" doesn't reflect the fine details of the situation you witnessed - armed Hamas people calling to houses, and the tour guides comments - which are compatible with what observers would call "a free and fair election".

    I'd be more worried about their treatment of their political opponents and dissenters, but that's a story for another day.


  • #1558
    Phonehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭Phonehead


    pedro1234 wrote: »
    There's not many Irish politicians who would kidnap and kill you for not repaying a debt to them.

    They only won 44% of the vote, can you provide any articles or reports where those who voted against suffered reprisals


  • #1559
    pedro1234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 190 ✭✭pedro1234


    PM me and we'll continue the discussion there. I don't want to be accused of bringing the thread "off topic" any further.


  • #1560
    mooseknunkle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,427 ✭✭✭mooseknunkle


    pedro1234 wrote: »
    You clearly have issues with reading comprehension. I asked if my guide if he knew who the armed men were and why they were calling around to some places.

    Is that an unreasonable thing to ask?

    Was your guide not concerned with their own safety by telling you what they were doing?


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  • #1561
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    mickstupp wrote: »
    I've been away for a hundred and twenty pages or so. Has anyone come up with an acceptable way to justify child murder yet?

    Or are they still busily trying to shift the focus away from the morally reprehensible actions of the Israelis? *takes a quick look* Yep, never mind.

    I'm still waiting to see someone explain their moral dilema when it comes to choosing whether the child is Syrian, Israeli or a starving, malnutritioned child from a third world developing country before being morally outraged.

    As appauling as Israel's onslaught on the innocent of Gaza is it seems a big old bandwagon tends to ride through these threads, where are the jumpers when it comes to Syria and developing countries?.

    Another question which baffles me is why there hasn't been a call for a peace keeping/enforcing force has not been invited to place boots on the ground in Gaza (my suspicion is an Israeli protest against it).


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