Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August

ElChe32 · 01-08-2014 02:09PM

jank wrote: »

Groups that carry out extrajudicial killings, want to launch a religious holy war against the jews, want to wipe Israel off the map, have a history of sucide bombings, are not democratic and so on.

On the face of it a country like Israel may seem a terrorist state however, the key difference is this. The people who sit around the cabinet table in Tel Aviv are elected officials, elected by the citizens of Israel. There is a democratic process in this country whereby if the people of Israel are not happy with their government they can vote them out. There is a ruling of law in the state where even powerful men like ex presidents can be found guilty in courts over fraud and sentenced accordingly.

Terrorist groups like Hamas have no such mandate. They assume power from the point of their gun and rule accordingly. They are the law, they are also the jury. The people they propose to represent hardly ever have a say in policy or actions. If Israel were taking anti-war protesters in Tel Av-iv away behind a building and putting a bullet in their heads then I would agree that they are the same as terrorists. They do not do this. Hamas on the other-hand regularly practice extrajudicial killings and run the place on fear and intimidation.

Why have they not built bomb shelters for their people. Why do not put their limited resources into making their peoples lives better rather then trying to wage a war against Israel with tunnels and rockets that only make the average Palestinian lives worse when Israel rightly launch an offensive to destroy weapons stock piles and tunnels.

The only truth is this. Israel is not going to go away, therefore life for the average person in Gaza can only get better when Hamas goes away or reforms itself completely. If they proritiesd helping the average Palestinian more than trying to kill Jews than things will change for the better.

Like this charming MP? Ayelet Shaked-
"Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there."

http://dissidentvoice.org/2014/07/israeli-mp-mothers-of-all-palestinians-must-be-killed/

Dan_Solo · 01-08-2014 02:13PM

ElChe32 wrote: »

Like this charming MP? Ayelet Shaked-
"Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there."

http://dissidentvoice.org/2014/07/israeli-mp-mothers-of-all-palestinians-must-be-killed/

Couldn't honestly tell if you were talking about Hamas or Israelis there as I accidentally skipped he first sentence. This logic and some of it spouted is just saying there's no such thing as a civilian.

Tuisceanch · 01-08-2014 02:14PM

I don't know why people think that a democratically elected government necessarily instils the belief that their policies are going to be reasonable,humanitarian and in the interest of promoting peace. Hitler was elected democratically by a minority vote and subsequently abolished the parliamentary system and we all know what he subsequently got up to. Tony Blair's government was democratically elected but I'm sure the people of Iraq don't have warm feelings towards him. As for George W.Bush and his anonymous successor..well you know what their foreign and domestic policies are.

pedro1234 · 01-08-2014 02:15PM

RustyNut wrote: »

So you support killing people depending on who they vote for?

They voted with guns to their heads. I provided details on this earlier in the thread. Do keep up.

RustyNut · 01-08-2014 02:20PM

pedro1234 wrote: »

They voted with guns to their heads. I provided details on this earlier in the thread. Do keep up.

Why kill them in their beds then?

ElChe32 · 01-08-2014 02:20PM

pedro1234 wrote: »

They voted with guns to their heads. I provided details on this earlier in the thread. Do keep up.

Guns to their heads? Bollicks, Palestinians were sick to the teeth of Fatah and their corruption and ineffectiveness.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/27/international/middleeast/27mideast.html?_r=0

JamboMac · 01-08-2014 02:22PM

Here is a nice Zionist, by the way don't think they are to fond of us Europeans.

Nice YouTube which was done by CBS don't know whether it's the American channel, never knew of the German church that brings a child's which allegedly they say Jews drank it's blood not sure it's true.

http://israelseen.com/2013/10/30/demonizing-israel-and-the-jews-by-dr-manfred-gerstenfeld/

Spring Onion · 01-08-2014 02:22PM

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Seem? Oh sorry, most rationale thinking human beings have long since moved past 'seem'.

Yes, Israel. Since the birth pangs of the nation, it has been under the grip of successive expansionist Zionist regimes. Regimes that have ethnically cleansed vast swathes of land and expelled their inhabitants. So if you want to talk their wonderful 'democracy', then one has to ask, why don't they let those whom they cleansed back to their Homeland? What's that? Yes that's right, to do so would alter their artificially gerrymandered state and represent the political death of Zionism. Israel, a state that also has an unhealthy obsession with their army. With an army that has an unhealthy & powerful influence on government and the success of an individuals political career. So let's not talk about faux democracy.

Great post.

RustyNut · 01-08-2014 02:22PM

pedro1234 wrote: »

They voted with guns to their heads. I provided details on this earlier in the thread. Do keep up.

How many of the dead Palestinian babys voted?

pedro1234 · 01-08-2014 02:25PM

ElChe32 wrote: »

Guns to their heads? Bollicks, Palestinians were sick to the teeth of Fatah and their corruption and ineffectiveness.

So quick to dismiss, you must be in your 20s.

Some of them were, yeah.

Did you talk to even one Palestinian who voted?

Hamas are like the mob, they'll take your kid to hospital and pay his medical bills and in return you owe them a favour, and they'll physically ensure you vote for them. Not everyone owed Hamas a favour, so not everyone had a gun to their head.

Phonehead · 01-08-2014 02:30PM

pedro1234 wrote: »

So quit to dismiss, you must be in your 20s.

Some of them were, yeah.

Did you talk to even one Palestinian who voted?

Hamas are like the mob, they'll take your kid to hospital and pay his medical bills and in return you owe them a favour, and they'll physically ensure you vote for them. Not everyone owed Hamas a favour, so not everyone had a gun to their head.

Ya, probably much the same as people who voted Sinn Fein in 1918. People voted for them because they wanted to

ElChe32 · 01-08-2014 02:30PM

pedro1234 wrote: »

So quit to dismiss, you must be in your 20s.

Some of them were, yeah.

Did you talk to even one Palestinian who voted?

Hamas are like the mob, they'll take your kid to hospital and pay his medical bills and in return you owe them a favour, and they'll physically ensure you vote for them. Not everyone owed Hamas a favour, so not everyone had a gun to their head.

And you know this for a fact. They intimidated every one ye? Not the fact that the 2nd intifada had just come to an end with nothing once again gained for the everyday Palestinian while the heads of Fatah drove round in their fancy cars, built their fancy houses? As I said the PLO/Fatah were ineffective so they voted for the hardliners.

FTA69 · 01-08-2014 02:31PM

pedro1234 wrote: »

So quit to dismiss, you must be in your 20s.

Some of them were, yeah.

Did you talk to even one Palestinian who voted?

Hamas are like the mob, they'll take your kid to hospital and pay his medical bills and in return you owe them a favour, and they'll physically ensure you vote for them. Not everyone owed Hamas a favour, so not everyone had a gun to their head.

I spoke to loads of Palestinians. Most of the people I spoke to were not supporters of Hamas but nobody once said they weren't elected in a fair manner. Similarly, even the Fatah members I met had no problem in pointing out that corruption within Fatah turned many Palestinians toward Hamas, especially in Gaza where the Fatah leader, Mohammed Dahlan, creamed off literally millions of dollars for himself and his cronies.

There were no irregularities in the 2006 election. (Bar of course the Israelis harassing Hamas members and trying to prevent East Jerusalemites from voting.)

For someone patronising people on the basis of age you seem to be fairly uninformed on the situation yourself.

ElChe32 · 01-08-2014 02:31PM

Isn't it great that Pedro1234 has posted all 13 posts solely in this thread...

pedro1234 · 01-08-2014 02:32PM

ElChe32 wrote: »

And you know this for a fact. They intimidated every one ye? Not the fact that the 2nd intifada had just come to an end with nothing once again gained for the everyday Palestinian while the heads of Fatah drove round in their fancy cars, built their fancy houses? As I said the PLO/Fatah were ineffective so they voted for the hardliners.

What part of "some of them" don't you understand?

01-08-2014 02:35PM

I have been following @belalmd12 on twitter. He is doctor at shifa hospital and has just tweeted that they have been ordered to evacuate.

I haven't mastered linking and displaying tweet from my phone to here. If someone could do the honours I'd be much obliged.

user2011 · 01-08-2014 02:35PM

pedro1234 wrote: »

So quit to dismiss, you must be in your 20s.

Some of them were, yeah.

Did you talk to even one Palestinian who voted?

Hamas are like the mob, they'll take your kid to hospital and pay his medical bills and in return you owe them a favour, and they'll physically ensure you vote for them. Not everyone owed Hamas a favour, so not everyone had a gun to their head.

Go and read a vanity fair link posted earlier in this thread and come back with that line of guns to head.. US sponsored a Fatah coup after Hamas won elections that were internationally observed and deemed fair.

pedro1234 · 01-08-2014 02:37PM

FTA69 wrote: »

I spoke to loads of Palestinians. Most of the people I spoke to were not supporters of Hamas but nobody once said they weren't elected in a fair manner. Similarly, even the Fatah members I met had no problem in pointing out that corruption within Fatah turned many Palestinians toward Hamas, especially in Gaza where the Fatah leader, Mohammed Dahlan, creamed off literally millions of dollars for himself and his cronies.

There were no irregularities in the 2006 election. (Bar of course the Israelis harassing Hamas members and trying to prevent East Jerusalemites from voting.)

For someone patronising people on the basis of age you seem to be fairly uninformed on the situation yourself.

I'm patronising people based on their ability to be extremely quick to dismiss what I and others witnessed.

If you seriously believe that Hamas did not force people to vote for them, then you're more clueless than you at first appear.

I was in Palestine in the weeks leading up to the elections.

Tell me, what did you see when you were there?

ElChe32 · 01-08-2014 02:38PM

pedro1234 wrote: »

What part of "some of them" don't you understand?

You've gone from

"They voted with guns to their heads. I provided details on this earlier in the thread. Do keep up."

to "some"

which is it?

A Dub in Glasgo · 01-08-2014 02:38PM

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

I have been following @belalmd12 on twitter. He is doctor at shifa hospital and has just tweeted that they have been ordered to evacuate.

I haven't mastered linking and displaying tweet from my phone to here. If someone could do the honours I'd be much obliged.

https://twitter.com/Belalmd12

pedro1234 · 01-08-2014 02:39PM

ElChe32 wrote: »

Isn't it great that Pedro1234 has posted all 13 posts solely in this thread...

If you have issues with any of my posts then refute them and/or report them.

I joined boards to discuss this topic. Is that against the rules buddy?

Phonehead · 01-08-2014 02:40PM

pedro1234 wrote: »

I'm patronising people based on their ability to be extremely quick to dismiss what I and others witnessed.

If you seriously believe that Hamas did not force people to vote for them, then you're more clueless than you at first appear.

I was in Palestine in the weeks leading up to the elections.

Tell me, what did you see when you were there?

Any Proof you were there and proof of your claims?

RustyNut · 01-08-2014 02:40PM

pedro1234 wrote: »

I'm patronising people based on their ability to be extremely quick to dismiss what I and others witnessed.

If you seriously believe that Hamas did not force people to vote for them, then you're more clueless than you at first appear.

I was in Palestine in the weeks leading up to the elections.

Tell me, what did you see when you were there?

Whats your point? Nobodys defending Hamas here, or are you saying that its ok for the zionists to bomb babys as they sleep because of who their parents voted for?

pedro1234 · 01-08-2014 02:41PM

ElChe32 wrote: »

You've gone from

"They voted with guns to their heads. I provided details on this earlier in the thread. Do keep up."

to "some"

which is it?

Haha come on man. Did I say ALL of them? No. It wasn't a 100% majority that voted for Hamas so clearly it was some. I would have thought that was self evident.

A Dub in Glasgo · 01-08-2014 02:41PM

pedro1234 wrote: »

I joined boards to discuss this topic. Is that against the rules buddy?

You get the bat call?

Donkey Oaty · 01-08-2014 02:42PM

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

I have been following @belalmd12 on twitter. He is doctor at shifa hospital and has just tweeted that they have been ordered to evacuate.

I haven't mastered linking and displaying tweet from my phone to here. If someone could do the honours I'd be much obliged.

The twitter feed is here: https://twitter.com/Belalmd12

He's not actually at the hospital at the moment: latest tweet is this:

Trying to call friends at Shifa to verify the situation, so far no success

pedro1234 · 01-08-2014 02:42PM

RustyNut wrote: »

Whats your point? Nobodys defending Hamas here, or are you saying that its ok for the zionists to bomb babys as they sleep because of who their parents voted for?

If you read any of my posts and the article I've had published you would understand that I am vehemently anti Zionist and anti Hamas. I support a secular Palestine, of which close to a tenth of the voting population voted for, but I can tell you from my own experience much more of the population are secular.

ElChe32 · 01-08-2014 02:42PM

pedro1234 wrote: »

If you have issues with any of my posts then refute them and/or report them.

I joined boards to discuss this topic. Is that against the rules buddy?

I'm not your buddy, pal.

pedro1234 · 01-08-2014 02:43PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You get the bat call?

There's a lot of lurkers you know. Read the active users list for proof of this.

Son Of A Vidic · 01-08-2014 02:43PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You get the bat call?

The bat call has been working overdrive lately.

Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August