Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August

Zebra3 · 01-08-2014 07:37AM

jank wrote: »

Yet Hamas (the organisation which you refuse to say are a terrorist organisation) engage in wide spread holocaust denial and even say so in their charter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas%E2%80%93UNRWA_Holocaust_dispute

Secondly, people are going on endlessly about Israel committing Genocide. That assertion is rubbish and does not stand up to facts with any level headed reasonable person. Over-zealous? Possibly, trigger happy, yes. Genocide akin to the Nazi's...no, just no.

Interestingly if you go the the Holocaust memorial/museum in West Jerusalem you can see all the lies that are being spread about the Nazi Holocaust by Israel.

Maps from 1939 and 1945 don't have Palestine on them instead are marked with Israel.

Palestinians are blamed as Nazi collaborators and there is no mention of how it was actually Zionists who collaborated with Nazi Germany.

http://www.amazon.com/Transfer-Agreement-Dramatic-Story-Of/dp/1572907703

Oh and it also states that "all of Europe turned to evil". A disgusting insult to all those who fought Nazism, but plays well no doubt with deluded Americans. :rolleyes:

SeaBreezes · 01-08-2014 07:47AM

pedro1234 wrote: »

Reports on Twitter that Israel already violated the ceasefire within 8 minutes of it starting.

Ah God no. :-(

jank · 01-08-2014 07:53AM

AngryHippie wrote: »

I disagree on this one.

As the international community cannot get their acts together regarding dissident groups, rogue entities, freedom militias and terrorists in general, the tag terrorist loses its meaning.

If you look at the definitions behind terrorist organization, it can be applied to the state of Israel just as accurately as Hamas, Hebollah, Fatah, the PLO and countless other ragtag groups that have been branded as terrorist organizations.

The work lost its meaning back when Dr. Guevara was executed, and has been moved into the realm of the ridiculous since the GW Bush administration repeated daily until puking point and beyond.

Are Hamas nice guys ? no
Are They the "Bad" guys in this situation ? 50/50 imo.

You can keep bleating and arguing the terrorist point, but it still means nothing, until their is consensus on what a terrorist organization is, what it does, when it becomes one, who decides and what evidence is required. Until then its just a tag like "Bleating Clown"

Groups that carry out extrajudicial killings, want to launch a religious holy war against the jews, want to wipe Israel off the map, have a history of sucide bombings, are not democratic and so on.

On the face of it a country like Israel may seem a terrorist state however, the key difference is this. The people who sit around the cabinet table in Tel Aviv are elected officials, elected by the citizens of Israel. There is a democratic process in this country whereby if the people of Israel are not happy with their government they can vote them out. There is a ruling of law in the state where even powerful men like ex presidents can be found guilty in courts over fraud and sentenced accordingly.

Terrorist groups like Hamas have no such mandate. They assume power from the point of their gun and rule accordingly. They are the law, they are also the jury. The people they propose to represent hardly ever have a say in policy or actions. If Israel were taking anti-war protesters in Tel Av-iv away behind a building and putting a bullet in their heads then I would agree that they are the same as terrorists. They do not do this. Hamas on the other-hand regularly practice extrajudicial killings and run the place on fear and intimidation.

Why have they not built bomb shelters for their people. Why do not put their limited resources into making their peoples lives better rather then trying to wage a war against Israel with tunnels and rockets that only make the average Palestinian lives worse when Israel rightly launch an offensive to destroy weapons stock piles and tunnels.

The only truth is this. Israel is not going to go away, therefore life for the average person in Gaza can only get better when Hamas goes away or reforms itself completely. If they proritiesd helping the average Palestinian more than trying to kill Jews than things will change for the better.

FTA69 · 01-08-2014 07:55AM

Zebra3 wrote: »

Interestingly if you go the the Holocaust memorial/museum in West Jerusalem you can see all the lies that are being spread about the Nazi Holocaust by Israel.

Maps from 1939 and 1945 don't have Palestine on them instead are marked with Israel.

Palestinians are blamed as Nazi collaborators and there is no mention of how it was actually Zionists who collaborated with Nazi Germany.

http://www.amazon.com/Transfer-Agreement-Dramatic-Story-Of/dp/1572907703

Oh and it also states that "all of Europe turned to evil". A disgusting insult to all those who fought Nazism, but plays well no doubt with deluded Americans. :rolleyes:

I've been to Yad Veshem and I didn't see any of that.

FTA69 · 01-08-2014 07:57AM

jank wrote: »

Groups that carry out extrajudicial killings, want to launch a religious holy war against the jews, want to wipe Israel off the map, have a history of sucide bombings, are not democratic and so on.

On the face of it a country like Israel may seem a terrorist state however, the key difference is this. The people who sit around the cabinet table in Tel Aviv are elected officials, elected by the citizens of Israel. There is a democratic process in this country whereby if the people of Israel are not happy with their government they can vote them out. There is a ruling of law in the state where even powerful men like ex presidents can be found guilty in courts over fraud and sentenced accordingly.

Terrorist groups like Hamas have no such mandate. They assume power from the point of their gun and rule accordingly. They are the law, they are also the jury. The people they propose to represent hardly ever have a say in policy or actions. If Israel were taking anti-war protesters in Tel Av-iv away behind a building and putting a bullet in their heads then I would agree that they are the same as terrorists. They do not do this. Hamas on the other-hand regularly practice extrajudicial killings and run the place on fear and intimidation.

Why have they not built bomb shelters for their people. Why do not put their limited resources into making their peoples lives better rather then trying to wage a war against Israel with tunnels and rockets that only make the average Palestinian lives worse when Israel rightly launch an offensive to destroy weapons stock piles and tunnels.

The only truth is this. Israel is not going to go away, therefore life for the average person in Gaza can only get better when Hamas goes away or reforms itself completely. If they proritiesd helping the average Palestinian more than trying to kill Jews than things will change for the better.

You realise Hamas were democratically elected yeah? And the reason they haven't built anything is because a massive Israeli embargo prevents them from accessing materials, even cement is a prohibited item. The vast majority of building materials are smuggled in via tunnel from Egypt and considering the place was utterly wrecked during Cast Lead, the Gazans did a remarkable job in what get could rebuild considering thei siege they were under. Unfortunately they now must start again from scratch for the umpteenth time.

Chance The Rapper · 01-08-2014 08:01AM

jank wrote: »

Groups that carry out extrajudicial killings, want to launch a religious holy war against the jews, want to wipe Israel off the map, have a history of sucide bombings, are not democratic and so on.

On the face of it a country like Israel may seem a terrorist state however, the key difference is this. The people who sit around the cabinet table in Tel Aviv are elected officials, elected by the citizens of Israel. There is a democratic process in this country whereby if the people of Israel are not happy with their government they can vote them out. There is a ruling of law in the state where even powerful men like ex presidents can be found guilty in courts over fraud and sentenced accordingly.

Terrorist groups like Hamas have no such mandate. They assume power from the point of their gun and rule accordingly. They are the law, they are also the jury. The people they propose to represent hardly ever have a say in policy or actions. If Israel were taking anti-war protesters in Tel Av-iv away behind a building and putting a bullet in their heads then I would agree that they are the same as terrorists. They do not do this. Hamas on the other-hand regularly practice extrajudicial killings and run the place on fear and intimidation.

Why have they not built bomb shelters for their people. Why do not put their limited resources into making their peoples lives better rather then trying to wage a war against Israel with tunnels and rockets that only make the average Palestinian lives worse when Israel rightly launch an offensive to destroy weapons stock piles and tunnels.

The only truth is this. Israel is not going to go away, therefore life for the average person in Gaza can only get better when Hamas goes away or reforms itself completely. If they proritiesd helping the average Palestinian more than trying to kill Jews than things will change for the better.

- The whole occupation is based on religious reasons - Zionists thinking they have the right to the land

-Hamas were democratically elected

- At this point Hamas are the only defence the Palestinians have. They're *not* " trying to kill Jews" , they're trying to kill members of the occupying army, and defend their people. Ask the people in the west bank what goods laying down their arms did.

If Hamas surrendered tomorrow, the Palestinians would be wiped out within days, under the pretence of " destroying tunnels and weaponry" under the remaining shelters that the people are confined to.

Akrasia · 01-08-2014 08:04AM

Nodin wrote: »

Because the job of Irish president prevents him speaking on such issues. He's not allowed.

I'd love to see the right wingers try to impeach him for speaking out in favour of human rights

Zebra3 · 01-08-2014 08:08AM

jank wrote: »

Groups that carry out extrajudicial killings, want to launch a religious holy war against the jews, want to wipe Israel off the map, have a history of sucide bombings, are not democratic and so on.

On the face of it a country like Israel may seem a terrorist state however, the key difference is this. The people who sit around the cabinet table in Tel Aviv are elected officials, elected by the citizens of Israel. There is a democratic process in this country whereby if the people of Israel are not happy with their government they can vote them out. There is a ruling of law in the state where even powerful men like ex presidents can be found guilty in courts over fraud and sentenced accordingly.

Terrorist groups like Hamas have no such mandate. They assume power from the point of their gun and rule accordingly. They are the law, they are also the jury. The people they propose to represent hardly ever have a say in policy or actions. If Israel were taking anti-war protesters in Tel Av-iv away behind a building and putting a bullet in their heads then I would agree that they are the same as terrorists. They do not do this. Hamas on the other-hand regularly practice extrajudicial killings and run the place on fear and intimidation.

Why have they not built bomb shelters for their people. Why do not put their limited resources into making their peoples lives better rather then trying to wage a war against Israel with tunnels and rockets that only make the average Palestinian lives worse when Israel rightly launch an offensive to destroy weapons stock piles and tunnels.

The only truth is this. Israel is not going to go away, therefore life for the average person in Gaza can only get better when Hamas goes away or reforms itself completely. If they proritiesd helping the average Palestinian more than trying to kill Jews than things will change for the better.

Extrajudicial killings are carried out by Israel all the time.

Europeans jews invading Palestine declared holy war against the native Palestinian population and have pretty much succeeded in wiping Palestine off the map.

Car bombings were first used in Palestine by jewish terrorists.

What's your opinion of Israel's war of terror against Palestinians in the West Bank? Colonisation, mass kidnappings, home demolitions. The acts of a democracy?

jank · 01-08-2014 08:09AM

AngryHippie wrote: »

Just because the UN haven't shouted j'accuse, doesn't mean it aint happening.

The thing is nobody is shouting it apart from some angry pent up keyboard warriors on the internet or on Websites sympathetic to Islamic-fascism. The UN are not shouting it, the Red Cross are not shouting it, Amnesty International are not shouting it, the Western Media are not shouting it, ....therefore it becomes logical that it ain't happening. There is NO proof, zero whatsoever that Israel are conducting a of genocide against those in the Gaza strip. It makes no sense, logically, rationally or in anyway without any facts to put forward. The deaths of 1,400 people in an armed conflict out of 1,800,000 does not constitute genocide.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/384006/genocide-libel-dennis-prager

When Israel gave Gaza over to the Palestinians, it did not embargo essentials such as cement. But none of the millions of tons of cement allowed, or later smuggled, into Gaza were used to build schools or hospitals. They were used to build tunnels to smuggle terrorists into Israel and to hide rockets.

The charter of Hamas calls for the annihilation of Israel.

Israel is the only country in the world targeted for annihilation.

Though Israel is charged with engaging in genocide against Palestinians, in the last 20 years, the number of Palestinians has doubled; and since Israel’s founding in 1948, the Palestinian population has grown fivefold. It must surely rank as the least effective genocide in world history.

jank · 01-08-2014 08:15AM

FTA69 wrote: »

You realise Hamas were democratically elected yeah? And the reason they haven't built anything is because a massive Israeli embargo prevents them from accessing materials, even cement is a prohibited item. The vast majority of building materials are smuggled in via tunnel from Egypt and considering the place was utterly wrecked during Cast Lead, the Gazans did a remarkable job in what get could rebuild considering thei siege they were under. Unfortunately they now must start again from scratch for the umpteenth time.

They were 'democratically' elected in 2006 where they then proceed to purge Gaza from opposition members including Fatah. Mob rule alive and well.
The embargo only materialized after it was clear that Hamas was using materials such as concrete in their own mini war industry. Do you think using concrete as tunnels going into Egypt is an efficient use of raw materials, better than building schools or hospitals?

jank · 01-08-2014 08:19AM

Chance The Rapper wrote: »

- The whole occupation is based on religious reasons - Zionists thinking they have the right to the land

-Hamas were democratically elected

- At this point Hamas are the only defence the Palestinians have. They're bit " trying to kill Jews" , they're trying to kill members of the occupying army, and defend their people. Ask the people in the west bank what goods laying down their arms did.

If Hamas surrendered tomorrow, the Palestinians would be wiped out within days, under the pretence of " destroying tunnels and weaponry" under the remaining shelters that the people are confined to.

A bit trying to kill Jews? What 'bit'? The part where they want to annihilate Israel of the face of the earth and in the process kill all the Jews in Palestine? That bit? Only that small 'bit'?

If Hamas surrendered tomorrow, then the average person in Gaza would immediately have a better future then being ruled by religious fanatics. There is nothing stopping the IDF right this second from wiping out Gaza and everyone living there, so.does.not.compute.

Akrasia · 01-08-2014 08:21AM

jank wrote: »

The thing is nobody is shouting it apart from some angry pent up keyboard warriors on the internet or on Websites sympathetic to Islamic-fascism. The UN are not shouting it, the Red Cross are not shouting it, Amnesty International are not shouting it, the Western Media are not shouting it, ....therefore it becomes logical that it ain't happening. There is NO proof, zero whatsoever that Israel are conducting a of genocide against those in the Gaza strip. It makes no sense, logically, rationally or in anyway without any facts to put forward. The deaths of 1,400 people in an armed conflict out of 1,800,000 does not constitute genocide.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/384006/genocide-libel-dennis-prager

The last thing I want to see is another fundamentalist islamic state in the Middle east.

The problem is that violence and repression feeds the extremism. The fundamentalists love this violence, they can't get enough of it, because murdering children turns pacifists and moderates into extremists. Keeping people caged up turns productive industrious people into militants and terrorists.

Destroying schools turns educated children into ignorant fundamentalists.

seiphil · 01-08-2014 08:22AM

Israel managed 2 hours before killing more innocent Palestinians. Israeli tank killed 4 in Gaza. The ceasefire has now ended.

Now watch Israel try spin it around and blame the people of Gaza

Dan_Solo · 01-08-2014 08:23AM

jank wrote: »

They were 'democratically' elected

In the same way that the Israeli government was 'democratically' 'elected'. S'orr'y 'my'' in'vert''ed 'c'''omma' ' ' bu''tto''n' i''s' a'' bi'''t 'st'i'ck'''y.

danniemcq · 01-08-2014 08:25AM

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Ah God no. :-(

sky news story on it

http://news.sky.com/story/1311150/israeli-tanks-breach-72-hour-gaza-ceasefire

Four Palestinians are reportedly killed two hours into a truce aimed at giving civilians a "much-needed reprieve" from violence.

With troops remaining in the areas and still actively looking for tunnels this was bound to happen.

dav3 · 01-08-2014 08:26AM

jank wrote: »

...

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/384006/genocide-libel-dennis-prager

Still posting links from non-reputable and non-trusted sources. You still don't get it.

But going by the logic you just posted, Rwanda's population has doubled since the mid 1990s. So therefore no genocide occurred.

Genocide is happening in Gaza right now. When/if Israel stop, the population will recover, as you would expect.

shedweller · 01-08-2014 08:36AM

Akrasia wrote: »

Destroying schools turns educated children into ignorant fundamentalists.

Easier to overthrow since all they will want to do is pick up a weapon and fire it at the israelis.
Thus giving the israelis an excuse to finally wipe the Palestinians off the face of the earth.
I despise them.

Dan_Solo · 01-08-2014 08:41AM

jank wrote: »

A bit trying to kill Jews? What 'bit'? The part where they want to annihilate Israel of the face of the earth and in the process kill all the Jews in Palestine? That bit? Only that small 'bit'?

If Hamas surrendered tomorrow, then the average person in Gaza would immediately have a better future then being ruled by religious fanatics. There is nothing stopping the IDF right this second from wiping out Gaza and everyone living there, so.does.not.compute.

A better future like the now wholly stolen West Bank? We have direct evidence of what happens when you don't fight Israeli land grabs, no need for guesswork.

Frank Lee Midere · 01-08-2014 08:42AM

jank wrote: »

The thing is nobody is shouting it apart from some angry pent up keyboard warriors on the internet or on Websites sympathetic to Islamic-fascism. The UN are not shouting it, the Red Cross are not shouting it, Amnesty International are not shouting it, the Western Media are not shouting it, ....therefore it becomes logical that it ain't happening. There is NO proof, zero whatsoever that Israel are conducting a of genocide against those in the Gaza strip. It makes no sense, logically, rationally or in anyway without any facts to put forward. The deaths of 1,400 people in an armed conflict out of 1,800,000 does not constitute genocide.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/384006/genocide-libel-dennis-prager

Are you sure "all" the concrete was used for tunnels. They must have rebuilt the schools, hospitals and charities since the last time israel decided to bomb them to the dark ages.

Capt'n Midnight · 01-08-2014 08:43AM

jank wrote: »

The current death toll in Gaza is about 1,400. Yet, around that many have died this week alone in Syria and have done so every week for the past 2 years. The total death toll there in 160,000. In Iraq too, the weekly death toll rate is similar. Why do we not see the same mobilization of protesters and outcry against these regimes. Why do we get protesters telling the west to stay out of Syria when 160,000 have died yet they then tell the West to get involved to stop the killings when 1,400 people die in Gaza. Why the double standard when it comes to Israel and don't give me crap about sanctions.

Western public opinion won't affect what's happening in Syria, or Iraq or central Africa , or the drug wars in Mexico.

But it just might make a difference to Israel.

And the demographics of Gaza are frightening 1.8m people with no future ,almost no income , almost totally dependent on imports for food, fuel, electricity and just about everything else on the whims of what Israel will allow in.

Banning books is one thing, but banning A4 paper and crayons ?

Has Israel ever tried a "Hearts and Minds" approach ?

shedweller · 01-08-2014 08:48AM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Western public opinion won't affect what's happening in Syria, or Iraq or central Africa , or the drug wars in Mexico.

But it just might make a difference to Israel.

And the demographics of Gaza are frightening 1.8m people with no future ,almost no income , almost totally dependent on imports for food, fuel, electricity and just about everything else on the whims of what Israel will allow in.

Banning books is one thing, but banning A4 paper and crayons ?

Has Israel ever tried a "Hearts and Minds" approach ?

But its not about hearts and minds. Its about taking the whole country and thats what they'll continue doing until they get it.

wes · 01-08-2014 09:22AM

jank wrote: »

They were 'democratically' elected in 2006 where they then proceed to purge Gaza from opposition members including Fatah. Mob rule alive and well.

Nice little lie there:
The Gaza Bombshell

The coup was attempted by Fatah, backed by the US and not Hamas. The information has been known since 2008, and has already been posted in the earlier thread, and in various threads over the years on this topic. Many of which you contributed to btw. So its simply impossible for me to believe you are unaware of the facts at this point, and the only conclusion is that you are deliberately not telling the truth.

FTA69 · 01-08-2014 09:25AM

jank wrote: »

They were 'democratically' elected in 2006 where they then proceed to purge Gaza from opposition members including Fatah. Mob rule alive and well.

I don't know why you're using inverted commas, they were elected fairly in the Palestinian Legislative Election due to people being sick to the back teeth of Fatah's corruption. Similarly your notion that they "purged" Fatah arbitrarily is nonsense. Upon Hamas' election, international aid to Palestine was cut by the 'Quartet' and the US and Israel set about arming Fatah to topple Hamas. Fatah took a number of steps to remove Hamas and they lost the ensuing battle.

The embargo only materialized after it was clear that Hamas was using materials such as concrete in their own mini war industry. Do you think using concrete as tunnels going into Egypt is an efficient use of raw materials, better than building schools or hospitals?

You're spoofing again jank, and it's becoming clearer with every post you don't have much of a grasp of the situation. The barrier around Gaza was built in 1994 and the Israelis have a history of blockade that long precedes Hamas' election. Secondly, your notion that the Palestinians 'only build tunnels and rockets' is a load of sh*te; they are always building in Gaza and Palestine in general - everything from apartment blocks to community spaces etc, it's actually remarkable how much they do manage to build with extremely scarce resources. The notion every scrap of cement gets put into tunnels is a load of scaremongering crap.

Secondly due to the inherent poverty and desperateness of the situation, most schools etc are run by the UN. The same places are now being shelled by the Israelis resulting in the death of dozens of people.

Rightwing · 01-08-2014 09:35AM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Western public opinion won't affect what's happening in Syria, or Iraq or central Africa , or the drug wars in Mexico.

But it just might make a difference to Israel.

And the demographics of Gaza are frightening 1.8m people with no future ,almost no income , almost totally dependent on imports for food, fuel, electricity and just about everything else on the whims of what Israel will allow in.

Banning books is one thing, but banning A4 paper and crayons ?

Has Israel ever tried a "Hearts and Minds" approach ?

That's the obvious solution to anone with a fraction of a brain and a some decency.

However, I feel after this slaughter, it's too late for that.

Antar Bolaeisk · 01-08-2014 09:58AM

shedweller wrote: »

But its not about hearts and minds. Its about taking the whole country and thats what they'll continue doing until they get it.

At which point they'll start looking to see what else they can take back that was promised to them in the Tanakh.

Maybe another stab at the Sinai Peninsula.

wretcheddomain · 01-08-2014 10:01AM

Antar Bolaeisk wrote: »

At which point they'll start looking to see what else they can take back that was promised to them in the Tanakh.

Maybe another stab at the Sinai Peninsula.

Might as well annex southern parts of Iraq as they housed Jews during the exile.

Zebra3 · 01-08-2014 10:16AM

And let us not forget that the Israeli government is "democratically" elected from a large part of over half a million criminals who live in Israeli colonies in direct contravention of international law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement#Demographics

RustyNut · 01-08-2014 10:38AM

jank wrote: »

If Hamas surrendered tomorrow, then the average person in Gaza would immediately have a better future then being ruled by religious fanatics.

If Israel stopped bombing and shelling nearly all the death and destruction would stop.

nelly17 · 01-08-2014 10:43AM

Sorry tried posting an interesting Graphic i came accross but could not so heres the link instead

wretcheddomain · 01-08-2014 10:44AM

jank wrote: »

If Hamas surrendered tomorrow, then the average person in Gaza would immediately have a better future then being ruled by religious fanatics. There is nothing stopping the IDF right this second from wiping out Gaza and everyone living there, so.does.not.compute.

Ruled by religious fanatics?

Why aren't you equally tarring Israel as "religious fanatics" - they don't even use the term "West Bank", they refer to the Land of Israel as "Judea and Samaria"; their pretext for settlements is religiously sanctioned according to them.

And the future of Gazans would not improve if Hamas surrendered tomorrow. This conflict has been going on a long time before Hamas got to power; and it'll continue long after Hamas are gone.

Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August