€2.75 million on unneeded signposts

kneemos · 28-07-2014 09:10PM

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

Drove a section of the WAW in Donegal and thought the sign-posting, and the whole initiative in general, was absolutely fantastic.

It's not a matter of putting a destination into a sat-nav; it's a matter of directing tourists through decent roads with lovely scenery, attractions and (most important) rural businesses!

A sat-nav will bring you the quickest way to a particular destination; the WAW is carefully curated path. Having used a sat nav in rural Ireland, I would rather have tourists led around by the nose by Failte Ireland, than stuck up a dirt track in the middle of nowhere with not as much as a coffee shop for miles around.

Sounds like the equivalent of the Luas line for businesses.

timetogo · 28-07-2014 09:31PM

runawaybishop wrote: »

If they said "wild atlantic way" that would be great, because right now they don't.

http://img.rasset.ie/0009492c-642.jpg

^^ see that blue wavey thing, thats what the money was spent on. Sure everyone will know what that is, right?

If they know enough to know about the Wild Atlantic Way then they will know about the signs. If the don't then they'll be driving around the west wondering what that mean.
Any time I've ever driven abroad I've spent at least two minutes researching my trip.

The first link you get when you Google the wild Atlantic way shows the logo.
Let's hope the tourists aren't total 100% morons.

If they're not then they'll be fine.

runawaybishop · 29-07-2014 12:10AM

timetogo wrote: »

If they know enough to know about the Wild Atlantic Way then they will know about the signs. If the don't then they'll be driving around the west wondering what that mean.
Any time I've ever driven abroad I've spent at least two minutes researching my trip.

The first link you get when you Google the wild Atlantic way shows the logo.
Let's hope the tourists aren't total 100% morons.

If they're not then they'll be fine.

Bollocks, good luck googling "wavy line wavy line". How hard would it have been to provide signage that everyone can understand.

Putting up obtuse signs to show directions to something that you'd need to have known about in the first place is ****ign idiotic.

No Pants · 29-07-2014 12:23AM

So...just to bring the thread back on track; is €2.75m on these signs worth it or not? Please explain.

El Weirdo · 29-07-2014 12:32AM

runawaybishop wrote: »

Bollocks, good luck googling "wavy line wavy line". How hard would it have been to provide signage that everyone can understand.

Putting up obtuse signs to show directions to something that you'd need to have known about in the first place is ****ign idiotic.

A good few of them have "Wild Atlantic Way" actually spelled out on them. The ones that just have the symbol (which is a "W", an "A" and another "W", in case you missed it) are just to keep people following the route, on the right track.

If anything or anyone is being obtuse, it's clearly you.

ETA: Google "wavy line road sign" and the first result is a boards thread about them.

The Backwards Man · 29-07-2014 12:35AM

Anyone following them knows what they are.

Tis great.

ballsymchugh · 29-07-2014 12:42AM

efb wrote: »

The original signs were awful and not very usable tbf

that whole situation was mini brennan throwing his toys from the pram because he wasn't around for the signs being launched. there was very little difference between the old and new ones, apart from when the new ones went up, mini brennan got his photo op.

CrazyRabbit · 29-07-2014 10:49AM

OK. So the signs are great and were really needed. I can accept that. I've no problem with making it easier for tourists.

But...is €690 for each sign too high a cost? I would love to see the breakdown of this cost. Metal sign, post, concrete base, digging of hole, sign printing, transport & installation costs. I just don't see how it can add up to so much unless there is a massive profit being made by someone.

Anyone here got actual experience with any of these costs?

Dravokivich · 29-07-2014 11:02AM

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

OK. So the signs are great and were really needed. I can accept that. I've no problem with making it easier for tourists.

But...is €690 for each sign too high a cost? I would love to see the breakdown of this cost. Metal sign, post, concrete base, digging of hole, sign printing, transport & installation costs. I just don't see how it can add up to so much unless there is a massive profit being made by someone.

Anyone here got actual experience with any of these costs?

It wasn't 690 for each sign. That's just an average isn't it, for the whole project involved?

It tells us nothing about the costs for various parts of what was done.

kippy · 29-07-2014 11:02AM

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

OK. So the signs are great and were really needed. I can accept that. I've no problem with making it easier for tourists.

But...is €690 for each sign too high a cost? I would love to see the breakdown of this cost. Metal sign, post, concrete base, digging of hole, sign printing, transport & installation costs. I just don't see how it can add up to so much unless there is a massive profit being made by someone.

Anyone here got actual experience with any of these costs?

I would suggest that the work was won under a tendering process as is pretty much standard nowadays for such large spends. As such one would have to believe that it was the cheapest price tendered.

If you look at the cost of signage in other countries such as here:
http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/parkingtransportandstreets/roadshighwaysstreetcare/costwiltshighwaysworks.htm

Then one would have to ask, as you have, what the cost actually covers.
Was it the survey and planning phase as well as manufacturing and installation etc.......
I cant find a tender document but havent tried to hard,
they are all here:
https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders
If you search for "signs" and include expired tenders you might find it.

Dont be at yourself · 29-07-2014 04:09PM

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

OK. So the signs are great and were really needed. I can accept that. I've no problem with making it easier for tourists.

But...is €690 for each sign too high a cost? I would love to see the breakdown of this cost. Metal sign, post, concrete base, digging of hole, sign printing, transport & installation costs. I just don't see how it can add up to so much unless there is a massive profit being made by someone.

Anyone here got actual experience with any of these costs?

Does it include the design and planning of the route itself as well, or 'just' the creation and installation of the signs?

K-9 · 29-07-2014 04:42PM

No Pants wrote: »

I didn't realise it was that simple. So, to recap, you simply buy some sheet metal and it decides for itself what to write on itself, makes itself, transports itself to the correct location, digs itself a wee hole, installs a pole, adds some concrete and then pops itself on top.

Where can I get some of this magical metal?

The now disbanded Town Council spent a fortune on signs, a couple of grand each IIRC. Yep, they look nice and all that but I can definitely think of better ways to spend millions throughout the country.

kneemos · 29-07-2014 05:39PM

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

OK. So the signs are great and were really needed. I can accept that. I've no problem with making it easier for tourists.

But...is €690 for each sign too high a cost? I would love to see the breakdown of this cost. Metal sign, post, concrete base, digging of hole, sign printing, transport & installation costs. I just don't see how it can add up to so much unless there is a massive profit being made by someone.

Anyone here got actual experience with any of these costs?

Two lads and a van alone would be around three hundred a day.

big dar · 29-07-2014 09:39PM

The reflective sheeting for these signs is very expensive as is the painted sheet aluminium

CrazyRabbit · 30-07-2014 02:14AM

kneemos wrote: »

Two lads and a van alone would be around three hundred a day.

Not per sign...or at least I hope not

Sir Arthur Daley · 30-07-2014 02:15AM

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Not per sign...or at least I hope not

The price of concrete is shocking.

Pelvis Parsley · 30-07-2014 02:19AM

In the good old days of FF, it would have been€27.5m

kneemos · 30-07-2014 09:06AM

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Not per sign...or at least I hope not

Depends how long it takes to put up the sign.

kneemos · 30-07-2014 09:07AM

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Not per sign...or at least I hope not

Depends how long it takes to put up the sign.

Capt'n Midnight · 30-07-2014 11:33PM

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Yay! Signs for tourists in a language that >99.5% of them don't understand.
Totally worth it.

Because tourists won't figure out they should follow the BROWN signs ?

It just adds to the charm.

oppenheimer1 · 30-07-2014 11:52PM

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

OK. So the signs are great and were really needed. I can accept that. I've no problem with making it easier for tourists.

But...is €690 for each sign too high a cost? I would love to see the breakdown of this cost. Metal sign, post, concrete base, digging of hole, sign printing, transport & installation costs. I just don't see how it can add up to so much unless there is a massive profit being made by someone.

Anyone here got actual experience with any of these costs?

The sign itself is probably about €300, if not more, depending on size. it also takes at least two visits to erect a sign, one to set the posts and another to put up the actual sign. It would take a team of two men at least two if not three hours to erect a single sign post, and another hour to attach a sign.

Theres also design costs and consultancy fees for picking the route, designing the signs, and determining the locations. Breaking the project down into a simple cost per sign is highly simplistic and not a fair representation of the amount of work that would go into it

runawaybishop · 31-07-2014 10:20AM

timetogo wrote: »

If they know enough to know about the Wild Atlantic Way then they will know about the signs. If the don't then they'll be driving around the west wondering what that mean.
Any time I've ever driven abroad I've spent at least two minutes researching my trip.

The first link you get when you Google the wild Atlantic way shows the logo.
Let's hope the tourists aren't total 100% morons.

If they're not then they'll be fine.

That's the thing, they won't know about the wild atlantic way because many of the signs have no text on them. Its hard to google something you do not know exists and its even harder to google an image.

El Weirdo wrote: »

A good few of them have "Wild Atlantic Way" actually spelled out on them. The ones that just have the symbol (which is a "W", an "A" and another "W", in case you missed it) are just to keep people following the route, on the right track.

If anything or anyone is being obtuse, it's clearly you.

ETA: Google "wavy line road sign" and the first result is a boards thread about them.

And a good few do not have it spelled out - I live on the coast and have yet to see one with text on it. I am aware what the symbol represents and that works when it is a well known brand - this is not a well known brand.

Do you know how goggle lists its search results by any chance? The searches are built on the relevance to the user. You've been in this thread talking so it'll get ranked higher - this thread wouldn't be on the first page for most users and would be back around page 4 or 5 - i.e where no one looks.

ETA doesnt mean what you think it means

Irish Steve · 31-07-2014 10:53AM

Depending on the road that the sign was being installed on, there is now a forest of regulations about safety signs, advance warnings, training courses for the operatives and a clatter of other regulations involved in temporarily parking a vehicle by the side of the road to put up a sign, so you'll probably find that a crew of at least 5 people was needed to put in each sign, one to "manage" the others, 2 to act as banksmen, and 2 to actually install the sign, assuming no machines were needed to dig a hole for a post. Add in the operating cost of a vehicle that's legal to transport 5, along with the items needed (signs, cones, etc), and you're into a world of pain costs wise.

And yes, this is only being said slightly tongue in cheek..............................................It's AH after all's said and done.

K-9 · 31-07-2014 11:20AM

Irish Steve wrote: »

Depending on the road that the sign was being installed on, there is now a forest of regulations about safety signs, advance warnings, training courses for the operatives and a clatter of other regulations involved in temporarily parking a vehicle by the side of the road to put up a sign, so you'll probably find that a crew of at least 5 people was needed to put in each sign, one to "manage" the others, 2 to act as banksmen, and 2 to actually install the sign, assuming no machines were needed to dig a hole for a post. Add in the operating cost of a vehicle that's legal to transport 5, along with the items needed (signs, cones, etc), and you're into a world of pain costs wise.

And yes, this is only being said slightly tongue in cheek..............................................It's AH after all's said and done.

That's true, even cutting grass on the verge of the road seems a military exercise these days. Health & Safety gone mad as Clarkson would say! Seriously, I can see the reasons for all that stuff but it does seem overkill!

timetogo · 31-07-2014 01:45PM

runawaybishop wrote: »

That's the thing, they won't know about the wild atlantic way because many of the signs have no text on them. Its hard to google something you do not know exists and its even harder to google an image.

I was assuming that a tourist driving on the wild Atlantic way would have researched it before coming to Ireland.

But you're right, if you're on the road and haven't done any research then you can't Google the symbol. I'd imagine you could ask somebody on the road or in your hotel like a normal human.

I had never seen the signs before I drove around the west earlier on this year. I don't remember thinking about it too much as there were many signs with the writing on them.

Why do people need to be baby fed. I suppose some do. They're the ones that complain the most I suppose.

El Weirdo · 31-07-2014 02:20PM

runawaybishop wrote: »

ETA doesnt mean what you think it means

Orly?

runawaybishop · 31-07-2014 03:42PM

El Weirdo wrote: »

Orly?

****

oppenheimer1 · 31-07-2014 05:54PM

timetogo wrote: »

I was assuming that a tourist driving on the wild Atlantic way would have researched it before coming to Ireland.

But you're right, if you're on the road and haven't done any research then you can't Google the symbol. I'd imagine you could ask somebody on the road or in your hotel like a normal human.

I had never seen the signs before I drove around the west earlier on this year. I don't remember thinking about it too much as there were many signs with the writing on them.

Why do people need to be baby fed. I suppose some do. They're the ones that complain the most I suppose.

Good signage needs to be easily understood, and generally pictograms are seen as a good idea. This symbol though is a bit too obtuse to be obvious and you can't Google a picture.

There was a need to balance a number of competing problems though. The signs needed to fit the regulations ie be brown, but the way point signs needed to be significantly different to the signs directing people to the route. And on top of that the signs need to be easily understood by people whose first language is not English.

€2.75 million on unneeded signposts

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