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Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Comments

  • #632
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    JC01 wrote: »
    Unacceptable how though?
    They are already a pariah state as far as most are concerned so why not just go the whole hog and finish off a thorn in there side for good instead of dragging it on endlessly?

    Your talking complete nonsense. Israel is not a pariah state among the International community. They have total US support, and preferential trade agreements with the EU.
    JC01 wrote: »
    Wouldnt the impunity (which i agree exists) just continue? America is hardly gonna invade them over it, maybe some soft sanctions for a few years until everyone forgets it?

    You don't get how important US support for Israel is. If they lose the US veto at the UNSC, they would be smacked upside there head with crippling sanctions.
    JC01 wrote: »
    Obviously This is all hypothetical but other than killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people what other "real" disadvantage is there from an Isreali perspective?

    *before I get annihilated for this, obviously if anything like this wer to happen I'd be the first signature on the petition for war crimes prosecutions.

    Complete loss of all there allies, all of there neighbors armed with nuclear weapons, because if they kill all the Palestinians in Gaza, what to stop them doing it to them. No US veto at the UNSC, so crippling sanctions, and you know actually becoming a pariah state.


  • #633
    P_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    Then why ask this?

    I was wondering about the tactical aspect of things, perhaps a thread in the Military forum might be the better place for it but I'm not sure if the mods there would appreciate it


  • #634
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    wes wrote: »
    Not enough dead Palestinians is your defense.......



    Now, now its a bit more than that.

    We know what the doctrine is called:
    Dahiya doctrine

    There are also numerous examples of it being implemented, here are a couple:




    You will need to do a lot better, then offer up the excuse that Israel hasn't murdered all the Palestinians in Gaza. FFS, even the IDF aren't that stupid, they would lose support over night, and would be hit by crippling sanctions, that would make the ones on Iran, look like a stern talking to.

    I stopped taking him serious after he said

    Quote: JC01No they will generally identify as anti-Isreali. Ina war between two sides when your against one you are generally for another. And a LOT of these people havnt the first clue about war either. They'll scream from the rooftops about genocidal Zionist murderers with literally not the slightest inkling of what things are like in a war zone.
    JC01 wrote: »
    No iv never served in any kinda combat thank god. Iv done enough study of history to see all this crap about genocide, murder etc is complete hysteria.


  • #635
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,674 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    P_1 wrote: »
    perhaps a thread in the Military forum might be the better place for it but I'm not sure if the mods there would appreciate it

    Well MM is the mod


  • #636
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    opinionated3 wrote: »
    Anti American bull****. Can you not come up with something better than that tripe?

    Well they are the ones who today agreed to resupply Israel with ammo so they can continue to murder innocent kids.


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  • #637
    AngryHippie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭AngryHippie


    JC01 wrote: »
    To put it very very very bluntly; because they havnt levelled the place.

    It seems pointless to elaborate because so far I havnt seen a single pro-Palestinian poster who is even remotely willing to debate. You have decided the IDF are not being restrained and no amount of numbers, statistics etc will change your mind

    So leveling the place would be a justifiable action ?

    I'll be the first to admit that it hasn't been out and out slaughter in the open as we have seen in many other international conflicts, but as I see it, it has been something equally sinister.
    Hospitals and schools have been hit. UN facilities have been hit. These are places attempting to shelter civilians that have been driven out of their communities.

    Try and put some things in perspective.

    Hamas had a 58% vote.
    ergo 42% of Palestinians in Gaza want nothing to do with them.
    and are completely innocent in this.

    Israel won't allow Palestinians to get recognition for their territory, nor will they allow them to gain access to the resources and structure to police it and secure it. Therefore anything with more killing power than a rock will end up on the black market, and thereby in the hands of those who want it most.....Militant groups.

    Much of this situation is sprouting from Israels flagrant denial of the Palestinian peoples right to self determination, and administration. Then when the anger levels are high enough, and the militants have managed to smuggle enough munitions into the area, the rockets come over the fence, and the Israelis respond with artillery and air support.

    Israel have never given peace a chance, they have covertly and overtly resisted Palestinians basic human rights at every turn since 1947 and continue to do so. Palestinians have responded with violence as is typical of desperate people in a hopeless situation. If you apply some razor-like logic, and a basic assumption that the Israelis are not stupid, you can only reach the conclusion that this is their desired outcome, or preferred situation, to terrorize the population of Gaza, rather than make any compromise or concession to reach an agreement.

    It is very difficult to take the Israelis side in this whole situation, considering the death toll of innocent civilians, They aren't entirely to blame, but they are most definitely in control of the situation.


  • #638
    PizzamanIRL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,147 ✭✭✭PizzamanIRL


    What's the gist of the reason they're fighting and what will make it stop?


  • #639
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    JC01 wrote: »
    To put it very very very bluntly; because they havnt levelled the place.


    Getting back to reality. Bibi and this war dogs know exactly how far they can push it. Not so much with the world, but with the Americans. As hypocritical as the Americans can be, through their pursuit of 'Freedom' in one country and their support for oppression in another. They remain obsessed with trying to retain the illusion of the Good Guy. So if Bibi ramps it up and starts using a lot of that american kit with complete abandon. Then believe me, 'Good Guy' Uncle Sam will very quickly reign them in.

    So to think that Israel actually has a realistic option of going all out. Well that is is pretty naive and shows a lack of understanding of preceding campaigns. They have always pushed the envelope of their lunacy, just a little bit further each time. But hypothetical speaking, lets pretend that tomorrow the IDF wanted to launch an all out campaign to annihilate the Palestinians. Believe me, it would not happen and more importantly, it would not be allowed to happen.

    Because in this social media age, not only would you hear the universal sound of arses jumping off the fence. But Good Guy Uncle Sam would very quickly put a stop to it. So no, we don't have to be thankful for the IDF showing restraint. They are as always, pushing it as far as they can get away with.


  • #640
    Joshua J
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭Joshua J


    opinionated3 wrote: »
    Anti American bull****. Can you not come up with something better than that tripe?

    What?. Better anti-american bull****?. Probably. Why?

    It's my opinion. What's your opinion they're killing themselves disproportionaly compared to the civilian population?.


  • #641
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,295 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Joshua J wrote: »
    I think the reason US soldiers/vets are killing themselves in record numbers is when the brainwashing wears off they realise it wasn't their CO who pulled the trigger it was themselves. And they had a choice.

    Well, fortunately, you're not in charge of the US Army's mental health system.

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/06/health/soldier-suicides-cause-study/
    What's causing soldiers to kill themselves at a record rate -- there were 325 confirmed or potential suicides last year among active and non-active military personnel -- are the same mental health problems that can be found in the general population, according to the study authors: depression, manic depression and alcohol abuse.

    These are all problems that are fundamentally treatable at some level. But the military will have to change the way it handles soldiers with mental illness if we expect to see the number of suicides decline

    Of course, you can continue with what appears to be your own prejudices if you prefer.


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  • #642
    JC01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭JC01


    bumper234 wrote: »
    I stopped taking him serious after he said

    I really wish I had a clue how to multiqoute on this...

    Anywho to the last poster than quoted me all totally valid points of course and fair enough I got a tad carried away with an EXAMPLE, obviously there not gonna destroy Gaza my point was more that the death could be 10x and the situation would be the same. I put it down to a LEVEL of restraint that it's not. At the end of the day the IDF is there to cause damage and nothing else.

    @bumper I'm sorry I havnt served in a war, wasn't aware that was a prerequisite to having a decently well researched opinion. My earlier point about people without a clue was in relation to the countless people I know who suddenly have a huge interest in foreign affairs so long as they relate to isreal. Where was all the outcry about Syria, DRC, Iraq, Sudan etc. having an opinion on this conflict almost seems fashionable at the moment would you not agree?

    Out of total curiosity what warzone were you in?


  • #643
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Joshua J wrote: »
    What?. Better anti-american bull****?. Probably. Why?

    It's my opinion. What's your opinion they're killing themselves disproportionaly compared to the civilian population?.

    To be fair, its probably due to the lack of treatment there receiving. The fact that so many US soldiers end up being homeless, have mental health issues etc is pretty shameful on the part of the US government.

    Perhaps instead of resupplying weapons to Israel to murder civilians, the US could better spend that money on there own soldiers health issues......


  • #644
    wretcheddomain
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭wretcheddomain


    JC01 wrote: »

    Anywho to the last poster than quoted me all totally valid points of course and fair enough I got a tad carried away with an EXAMPLE, obviously there not gonna destroy Gaza my point was more that the death could be 10x and the situation would be the same. I put it down to a LEVEL of restraint that it's not. At the end of the day the IDF is there to cause damage and nothing else.

    That's not restraint.

    That would be like arguing that Hitler showed restraint by not killing more people. In other words, you have to deal with the catastrophe as it's happening and not what it could be. Leave conditional statements out of the discussion and instead deal with the existing reality. Everybody can always do something worse but this has got to be the most warped definition of restraint that I've ever heard of. Moreover, the situation would most definitely not be the same if the damage was 20x worse.


  • #645
    Contributor 2013
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 162 ✭✭Contributor 2013


    I saw someone describe this conflict quite perfectly the other day.

    "If one side laid down their arms and dismantled their defenses there would be peace. (Gaza/Hamas)

    If the other side laid down their arms and dismantled their defenses they would be destroyed (civilians included). (Israel)"

    Now we are going to get the comments regarding collateral damage/loss of civilian life due to Israel's bombings etc.

    First point to make: in a country less than the size of England's Isle Of White; With a population of 1.8million are you honestly telling me, "the people" these civilians who are unfortunately collateral damage don't know who the Hamas operatives are?

    What's more, what is this 1.8million strong population doing about stopping rocket attacks being launched from their apartment blocks, their streets, their gardens towards Israel, bearing in mind if Israel didn't have the famous "iron dome" the vast majority of those rocket attacks would result in Israeli civilians being maimed and killed.

    Second point to make: Yes I can somewhat agree with the fact that Israel took land that was disputed by many claims saying who it belongs to. So the correct course of action from a "humanitarian" point of view, (as so many ave now taken because of civilian loss of life, during this latest conflict) where is the sense in launching all those rockets, which I think, if we are being honest with each other and ourselves we can agree have no realistic guidance system.

    Seriously guys, look what Russia did with Crimea. Where is the outrage from people about that? What because it's not "holy" land it should be treated with ls contempt than what Israel did in that region? Maybe it;s because civilian casualties are mounting up (in Crimea) people are less concerned? They are mounting up elsewhere in Ukraine, some form Ukrainian army shells, and others form Russians artillery shelling.

    I think it;s very easy for people to watch videos of dead children etc and suddenyl stand up for one side in any conflict, however just remember to be realistic about conflicts and war;

    The first casualty is always truth.


  • #646
    greenflash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 499 ✭✭greenflash


    Resonator75 wrote: »
    Unbelievable, 100 Palestinians dead today so far.

    This has echo's of Stalingrad. Israel lost its collective mind.

    Up to 1.5 million military dead in six months of fighting at Stalingrad. A civilian population reduced from 850,000 to 1500 in under two years. Get a grip.

    If Israel was looking to recreate those figures, they could do so in a much shorter timeframe due to the technology at their disposal.

    The death toll in Palestine, while appalling, doesn't get anywhere near that of the other conflict current in the region.


  • #647
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,295 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    P_1 wrote: »
    I was wondering about the tactical aspect of things, perhaps a thread in the Military forum might be the better place for it but I'm not sure if the mods there would appreciate it

    I'm a mod there.

    Depends on the question. The problem is that this sort of topic tends to very quickly devolve into the sort of discussion we're having here (Israel evil, usually). As a general rule, we try to stay out of the politics and work simply on the basis that "Once the political decision has been made, how is it conducted". If you wanted to put a specific question like 'what are the rules on assaulting towns' or 'What are other examples of towns being assaulted with what sort of result?' you'll be OK.


  • #648
    Joshua J
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭Joshua J


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Well, fortunately, you're not in charge of the US Army's mental health system.

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/06/health/soldier-suicides-cause-study/



    Of course, you can continue with what appears to be your own prejudices if you prefer.
    The record number of military suicides seen in recent years may not be directly due to extended deployments or combat experience, according to a new study. This data analysis, funded by the Department of Defense, suggests that the real reason behind the growing number of military suicides is underlying mental health issues in this population.

    Bolded the important bits. Convenient for the DOD that killing has little to no effect on soldiers. It's the training I guess. But civilian life, that'll kill ya.

    Smells like hero worship propaganda to me.


  • #649
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    I saw someone describe this conflict quite perfectly the other day.

    "If one side laid down their arms and dismantled their defenses there would be peace. (Gaza/Hamas)

    If the other side laid down their arms and dismantled their defenses they would be destroyed (civilians included). (Israel)"
    Well, the Palestinians in the West Bank laid down their arms. They are now a wholly annexed part of Israel.
    The Pax Israelium is what it is.


  • #650
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    I saw someone describe this conflict quite perfectly the other day.

    Ah this old chestnut......
    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    "If one side laid down their arms and dismantled their defenses there would be peace. (Gaza/Hamas)

    Already happened with Fatah in the West Bank, and in return they received more settlements in return, along with regular bull**** murder and humiliation that an occupation entails.

    So this is obviously nonsense.
    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    If the other side laid down their arms and dismantled their defenses they would be destroyed (civilians included). (Israel)"

    Over a 1000 Palestinians dead, most of them civilians. Your little what if, is useless in the face of what is actually happening as we type.

    It should be noted that the Arab peace plan, still on the table since 2002.
    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    Now we are going to get the comments regarding collateral damage/loss of civilian life due to Israel's bombings etc.

    Yeah, nice way to destroy your own credibility by using the loathsome term "collateral damage".
    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    First point to make: in a country less than the size of England's Isle Of White; With a population of 1.8million are you honestly telling me, "the people" these civilians who are unfortunately collateral damage don't know who the Hamas operatives are?

    So..... Your blaming the victims? Interesting tactic to take hear, trying to justify murdering civilians by blaming them....
    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    What's more, what is this 1.8million strong population doing about stopping rocket attacks being launched from their apartment blocks, their streets, their gardens towards Israel, bearing in mind if Israel didn't have the famous "iron dome" the vast majority of those rocket attacks would result in Israeli civilians being maimed and killed.

    Actually, the rockets are useless, and even before the Iron Dome, the resulted in few deaths. Regardless, they are a war crime.

    Also, Hamas actively stopped rocket attacks, until Israel broke the truce when it falsely blamed them for the murder of the 3 teenage settlers.

    Still, interesting that your blaming civilians........ again......

    BTW, your logic can also apply to the millions of Israelis, for instance why haven't they stopped there settlement expansion for example. The reasoning is just a loathsome, but it always funny that people who invoke such reasoning, for some reason think it only applies one way......
    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    Second point to make: Yes I can somewhat agree with the fact that Israel took land that was disputed by many claims saying who it belongs to. So the correct course of action from a "humanitarian" point of view, (as so many ave now taken because of civilian loss of life, during this latest conflict) where is the sense in launching all those rockets, which I think, if we are being honest with each other and ourselves we can agree have no realistic guidance system.

    There is no sense in it, and its has been condemned by pretty much everyone.....
    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    Seriously guys, look what Russia did with Crimea. Where is the outrage from people about that?

    Have you had your head in the sand? Pretty much everyone condemned Russia for the land grab. It did expose some startling hypocrisy by the US, condemning Russia, while giving Israel a free pass.
    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    What because it's not "holy" land it should be treated with ls contempt than what Israel did in that region? Maybe it;s because civilian casualties are mounting up (in Crimea) people are less concerned? They are mounting up elsewhere in Ukraine, some form Ukrainian army shells, and others form Russians artillery shelling.

    So simply whataboutery, as per usual. If you really cared about the Crimea, you would post on the already existing threads on the topic. There is one on After Hours, the most recent on was about the plane that the Russian backed rebels most likely shot down thinking it was Ukrainian military plane.
    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    I think it;s very easy for people to watch videos of dead children etc and suddenyl stand up for one side in any conflict, however just remember to be realistic about conflicts and war;

    The first casualty is always truth.

    Oh please, the old its war excuse. No one buys that nonsense anymore.


  • #651
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    The first casualty is always truth.

    No the first casualties are human beings and then the truth is distorted by the perpetrators to make it sound acceptable to people who are ignorant and callow enough to believe in fairy tales.


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  • #652
    Contributor 2013
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 162 ✭✭Contributor 2013


    Living in the past?

    Let's talk about now, shall we?

    Past is all well and good, how about today?


  • #653
    smurgen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    I saw someone describe this conflict quite perfectly the other day.

    "If one side laid down their arms and dismantled their defenses there would be peace. (Gaza/Hamas)

    If the other side laid down their arms and dismantled their defenses they would be destroyed (civilians included). (Israel)"

    Now we are going to get the comments regarding collateral damage/loss of civilian life due to Israel's bombings etc.

    First point to make: in a country less than the size of England's Isle Of White; With a population of 1.8million are you honestly telling me, "the people" these civilians who are unfortunately collateral damage don't know who the Hamas operatives are?

    What's more, what is this 1.8million strong population doing about stopping rocket attacks being launched from their apartment blocks, their streets, their gardens towards Israel, bearing in mind if Israel didn't have the famous "iron dome" the vast majority of those rocket attacks would result in Israeli civilians being maimed and killed.

    Second point to make: Yes I can somewhat agree with the fact that Israel took land that was disputed by many claims saying who it belongs to. So the correct course of action from a "humanitarian" point of view, (as so many ave now taken because of civilian loss of life, during this latest conflict) where is the sense in launching all those rockets, which I think, if we are being honest with each other and ourselves we can agree have no realistic guidance system.

    Seriously guys, look what Russia did with Crimea. Where is the outrage from people about that? What because it's not "holy" land it should be treated with ls contempt than what Israel did in that region? Maybe it;s because civilian casualties are mounting up (in Crimea) people are less concerned? They are mounting up elsewhere in Ukraine, some form Ukrainian army shells, and others form Russians artillery shelling.

    I think it;s very easy for people to watch videos of dead children etc and suddenyl stand up for one side in any conflict, however just remember to be realistic about conflicts and war;

    The first casualty is always truth.

    What % of civilians have Israel killed compared to the % the Palestinians have killed? Hamas are being extremely restraint and could easily call for suicide bombing campaigns to be launched against Israeli civilians but they choose not to.it seems to me that only one side is interested in peace.the Israeli are refusing to allow Palestinians to have a functional country by means of the blockade.
    People want to live not to just survive although the Israelis are denying them the chance to do either at the moment


  • #654
    NotASheeple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 424 ✭✭NotASheeple


    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    Living in the past?

    Let's talk about now, shall we?

    Past is all well and good, how about today?

    Dafuq?


  • #655
    Dublin Red Devil
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,267 ✭✭✭Dublin Red Devil


    The world needs to put an end to Zionism before its too late.


  • #656
    Contributor 2013
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 162 ✭✭Contributor 2013


    So according to every reply to my above comments, Israel are solely to blame for people launching rockets from behind human shields and the (yes im going to say it again) Collateral damage that comes form Israel returning fire on those positions?


  • #657
    Contributor 2013
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 162 ✭✭Contributor 2013


    NotASheeple wrote: »
    Dafuq?

    If today Hamas laid down their arms what would be the result?

    Peace, no?


  • #658
    Think_then_talk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 245 ✭✭Think_then_talk


    Joshua J wrote: »
    What?. Better anti-american bull****?. Probably. Why?

    It's my opinion. What's your opinion they're killing themselves disproportionaly compared to the civilian population?.

    PTSD, Is a factor in troops killing them-self's & others,, It is a tragedy.

    However the Israeli Ethnic cleansing of the Palestine People, While the world looks on is a far greater tragedy.

    While all this killing was going on two special flights arrived at Israel’s Ben-Gurion Airport filled with 430 French Jewish immigrants leaving Paris and its suburbs.

    The flights, organized by the Jewish Agency for Israel and the Ministry of Aliyah and Immigrant Absorption, had mostly families, including 195 children and 18 babies. Must be a great place to live.


  • #659
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    So according to every reply to my above comments, Israel are solely to blame for people launching rockets from behind human shields and the (yes im going to say it again) Collateral damage that comes form Israel returning fire on those positions?

    You don't need to use an euphemism for people when you can just make the same point but say for example "and consequently the people used for that purpose where the unintended victims". Using euphemisms suggests you are uncomfortable with the idea that we are talking about human beings who are now no more. Why is that?


  • #660
    Contributor 2013
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 162 ✭✭Contributor 2013


    Tuisceanch wrote: »
    You don't need to use an euphemism for people when you can just make the same point but say for example "and consequently the people used for that purpose where the unintended victims". Using euphemisms suggests you are uncomfortable with the idea that we are talking about human beings who are now no more. Why is that?

    I think you're getting off topic now. :O)


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  • #661
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    So according to every reply to my above comments, Israel are solely to blame for people launching rockets from behind human shields

    No evidence of Human Shields being used:

    Israel-Gaza conflict: The myth of Hamas’s human shields

    So seeing as no Human Shields are being used, as the Israeli government claims, then the only conclusion that one can come to is that they are lieing, and deliberately targeting civilians as per the Dahiya Doctrine.

    The current conflict was one of choice by Netanyahu, when he chose to falsely blame Hamas for the murder of 3 settler teenagers, and then arrested there men, and attacked them.

    The funny thing is that we know that even the Israeli police didn't believe Hamas was behind it:

    Hamas not complicit in teens’ kidnap: Israeli police
    Contributor 2013 wrote: »
    and the (yes im going to say it again) Collateral damage that comes form Israel returning fire on those positions?

    Again, with that ridiculous term, that exists solely to justify the murder of civilians.


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