Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August

bumper234 · 30-07-2014 08:41PM

JC01 wrote: »

No they will generally identify as anti-Isreali. Ina war between two sides when your against one you are generally for another. And a LOT of these people havnt the first clue about war either. They'll scream from the rooftops about genocidal Zionist murderers with literally not the slightest inkling of what things are like in a war zone. Tragically something like 1200 people have died in the last few weeks. Go look at the numbers in any actual genocide or war and you'll see that amount of people perish in an hour. By the measure of the capabilities the IDF are being very restrained yet are still called monsters. No body can get there heads around the fact that people die in warzones, especially highly populated urban ones, at an alarming rate be them man/woman/soldier/militant/medic/reporter or child

Apologies if I come across as ranting at you I'm particular but some of the utter tripe posted in this thread makes my blood boil.

Rant away i couldn't give 2 ****es, I have been in an actual.war zone during an actual war so your petty little rant about what civilian losses are acceptable is laughable at best. I am anti child murder by Israel, I am also anti child murder by Hamas, Russian backed troops in Ukraine, American drones in Afghanistan, Boko Harem and a myriad of other groups in places too numerous to mention.

Saying that the wanton systematic destruction of civilian areas in Gaza and the deaths of 1200 people (75%) civilians, 200 of those children is just a fact of war is just wrong. Israel CHOOSES to target civilian areas with massive ordinance knowing full.well that innocent civilians are going to die. This is a war crime, you and the other Israeli apologists in here may not like to.hear that but it is a fact, Israel is committing war crimes against innocent civilians.

twowheelsgood · 30-07-2014 08:43PM

Tuisceanch wrote: »

Here is a quote from that article''
“My feelings pale into insignificance compared to the enormity of the tragedy confronting each and every other person in Gaza at this time. It’s important to humanize the statistics and to realize that there is a human being with a heart and soul behind each statistic and that the humanity that lies behind these statistics should never be forgotten.”

But this alas is a consequence of any conflict. Even if the Israelis had right on their side (they don’t) and even if they were genuinely trying to minimise civilian deaths (questionable) there would inevitably be some, and probably quite a lot, of civilian casualties. And the pain for the relatives would be every bit as intense.

wes · 30-07-2014 08:47PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Hamas had a civil war in Gaza with Fatah who fled to the West Bank, leaving terrorists in control of Gaza. In a democracy, one doesn't force your opposition to flee.

Fatah attacked Hamas, in a coup attempt backed by the US:
The Gaza Bombshell

So you should really state what actually happened, as opposed to your nonsense version of events. Still we once again see that the US has 0 respect for democracy.

RobertKK wrote: »

Israel has fair elections.

Tell that to all the Palestinian they rule over, who have no say in how there lives are run......

RobertKK wrote: »

Gaza has elections manipulated by violence towards the main opposition.

Not true at all, there were international observers at the 2006 elections:
Palestinian Elections: Trip Report by Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter

Hamas won the elections fairly.

RobertKK wrote: »

Hamas getting help from North Korea - a nation compared to Nazi Germany by the UN.

So, they are buying weapons, from whoever will sell them. I fail to see your point exactly. That is if the story is even true.

Israel buys weapons from the US (more accurately, give billions of US tax payer money to buy them).

RobertKK wrote: »

Hamas would rather spend millions on tunnels into Israel.

Most tunnels are actually built into Egypt to bring in goods, that Palestinians can't get due to Israels illegal siege.

RobertKK wrote: »

Israel builds a wall to keep them out, so Hamas builds tunnels into Israel to kidnap and kill Israelis and fire rockets into Israel which cause conflict and death in Gaza.

The kidnap plot is according to Israel, and quite frankly I would like to see proof from an independent 3rd Party source, after all of Netanyahu's lies he has 0 credibility.

Your also wrong about the rockets:

How Politics and Lies Triggered an Unintended War in Gaza

Hamas hadn't fired a single rocket since [2012 Gaza conflict], and had largely suppressed fire by smaller jihadi groups. Rocket firings, averaging 240 per month in 2007, dropped to five per month in 2013.

So Hamas didn't fire any rockets and were actively stopping other from doing so.

RobertKK wrote: »

Israel could simply have flattened all of Gaza and occupied it rather than spending billions on a wall.

No they couldn't, even the US couldn't support such blatant mass murder. Israel is highly dependent on the US, and needs them on side.

RobertKK wrote: »

Hamas say they want to destroy Israel.

And Israel is destroying any chance of a Palestinian state. So there not exactly any better.

RobertKK wrote: »

The blockade on Gaza will continue as long as Hamas are in power, would you trust their North Korean friends?
http://www.examiner.com/article/hamas-reportedly-talking-arms-deal-with-north-korea

Israel get its weapons from the US, a country that invaded another country, because God told there President to do so..... See 2 can play at this game.

It hypocrisy to criticize just one side for purchasing weapons imho.

Chance The Rapper · 30-07-2014 08:53PM

I can't understand the American support. How can they (congress) honestly stand up, look people in the eye and say that it's not mass murder. How can Obama claim to be anti-war when he's supporting Israel?

My name is URL · 30-07-2014 09:00PM

Bolivia has declared Israel a 'terrorist state' and has banned Israelis from entering the country without a visa.

http://news.yahoo.com/bolivia-declares-israel-terrorist-state-184920411.html

Son Of A Vidic · 30-07-2014 09:00PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

Video of a U.N speaker breaking down after witnessing what happened at the school in Gaza earlier on.

That is UNRWA spokesman Chris Gunness. A man who has seen a lot in his time. So when you see a man like him driven to grief & despair live on air. It pretty much sums up the brutality and horror, the IDF savages are inflicting on the Palestinian people.

Manic Moran · 30-07-2014 09:01PM

Joshua J wrote: »

A member of the US war machine denigrating a countries call for peace. How surprising. Maybe Brazil shoulda jumped in and shot the place up. At least those at home would call them heroes.

No, but maybe they should have at least offered to jump in. There is precedent: Brazil is actually the flotilla leader for the maritime UNIFIL operation stopping arms trafficking to Hesbullah, the other nations working under command of the Brazillian admiral on his flagship.

One of the big sticking points that the Gazans have is the blockade which Israel is running. One of the big sticking points Israel has is the importation of arms and ammunition into Gaza. Since the arms blockade duties off Lebanon were handed off to the UN's Maritime Task Force in 2006, over 56,000 vessels have been investigated, and some 4,500 diverted to the Lebanese authorities. Israel is happy, Lebanon is happy, and there haven't been too many wars on Israel's northern border in the last decade since then.

Brazil has thus shown, in the past, willingness and capability to step in to take an active role in trying to bring peace to the area. Good for them, it was an example of a commitment and positive act which has actually achieved something for the people it was trying to help.

Compare that level of commitment with what the Western world has done for a couple score miles further South. Now, maybe the Brazilians are justified in saying "We're already doing our bit with UNIFIL, someone else can do the lifting in Gaza", but the point is that nobody seems interested in doing so. What is necessary is the willingness to divert resources to take practical measures to solve the problem, not simply say 'bad Israel' which, I think we can all agree, has achieved very little.

So, what would you rather that the various foreign nations do? What do you think the Palestinians would rather the various foreign nations do? Sit back and wag their fingers at Israel, or perform an active role which will reduce the perceived need in Israel to carry out these operations in the first place? Has anyone, that you know of, said "Look, this is silly. If people don't trust the Israelis to be fair in its military isolation of Gaza, and if the Israelis don't trust the Gazans do to it themselves, why don't we do it?".

Manic Moran · 30-07-2014 09:04PM

Chance The Rapper wrote: »

Wow.

He is being absolutely correct. There are plenty of examples throughout the last century of what can happen to a town and its citizens when war comes to it. An average of 500 dead civilians a week would barely be a blip on the radar in some conflicts.

My name is URL · 30-07-2014 09:06PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

He is being absolutely correct. There are plenty of examples throughout the last century of what can happen to a town and its citizens when war comes to it.

Have Israel declared war yet?

wes · 30-07-2014 09:07PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

So, what would you rather that the various foreign nations do? What do you think the Palestinians would rather the various foreign nations do? Sit back and wag their fingers at Israel, or perform an active role which will reduce the perceived need in Israel to carry out these operations in the first place?

I think they would prefer that Israel was similarly disarmed, so they can't attack Palestinian civilians, and use there weapons to expand outside there borders.

Oh and speaking of expanding outside there border, sanctions for that as well. Interestingly, there are no rockets from the West Bank, and yet settlements just keep on going...........

Also, sanctions for there Nuclear Weapons program.

Basically, if both sides were treated equally by the international community is what they would want.

bumper234 · 30-07-2014 09:10PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

He is being absolutely correct. There are plenty of examples throughout the last century of what can happen to a town and its citizens when war comes to it. An average of 500 dead civilians a week would barely be a blip on the radar in some conflicts.

If ever a username needed a vowel change.

Capt'n Midnight · 30-07-2014 09:11PM

Resonator75 wrote: »

Unbelievable, 100 Palestinians dead today so far.

This has echo's of Stalingrad. Israel lost its collective mind.

No echo's of Stalingrad. It might be closer to Leningrad but again nothing remotely close.

Everything that's happened in Gaza over the last few weeks would be happening hourly on a bad day during those sieges.

What we say here doesn't matter a damn in Syria , Iraq, Afghanistan , Pakistan , DRC , Somali, Nigeria , Sudan , or to the drug lords in Mexico and elsewhere

The big difference is the Israel isn't a dictatorship and may be swayed by public opinion.

Look at our history and things like Internment in the North and how the moderate parties like the SDLP were marginalised in favour of Sinn Fein ( same on the Unionist side too).

Hamas had 51% of the vote, in April they formed an government of national unity with Fatahand missile attacks were at an all time low. More recently were running out of money so their influence would be on the wane.

It was beginning to look like Northern Ireland again with sworn enemies accepting that they'd have to work together to keep out the moderates like Alliance and SDLP.

You don't need a degree in geopolitics and history to figure out that Israel launching military attacks would pull the rug out from under that process giving more support to Hamas as they have stood up to Israel more than Fatah have recently.

The Th!ng · 30-07-2014 09:14PM

Many years ago I read a book called The Tunnels Of Cu Chi which documented the Viet Cong's use of tunnels in fighting the Americans. Hamas must have gotten their hands on a few copies of the book, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%E1%BB%A7_Chi_tunnels

dd972 · 30-07-2014 09:14PM

It's like a 6ft 5'', 20 stone male kicking the f**k out of a two year old girl and the Mod at the beginning of the thread tells us not to be outraged.

Joshua J · 30-07-2014 09:17PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

No, but maybe they should have at least offered to jump in. There is precedent: Brazil is actually the flotilla leader for the maritime UNIFIL operation stopping arms trafficking to Hesbullah, the other nations working under command of the Brazillian admiral on his flagship.

One of the big sticking points that the Gazans have is the blockade which Israel is running. One of the big sticking points Israel has is the importation of arms and ammunition into Gaza. Since the arms blockade duties off Lebanon were handed off to the UN's Maritime Task Force in 2006, over 56,000 vessels have been investigated, and some 4,500 diverted to the Lebanese authorities. Israel is happy, Lebanon is happy, and there haven't been too many wars on Israel's northern border in the last decade since then.

Brazil has thus shown, in the past, willingness and capability to step in to take an active role in trying to bring peace to the area. Good for them, it was an example of a commitment and positive act which has actually achieved something for the people it was trying to help.

Compare that level of commitment with what the Western world has done for a couple score miles further South. Now, maybe the Brazilians are justified in saying "We're already doing our bit with UNIFIL, someone else can do the lifting in Gaza", but the point is that nobody seems interested in doing so. What is necessary is the willingness to divert resources to take practical measures to solve the problem, not simply say 'bad Israel' which, I think we can all agree, has achieved very little.

So, what would you rather that the various foreign nations do? What do you think the Palestinians would rather the various foreign nations do? Sit back and wag their fingers at Israel, or perform an active role which will reduce the perceived need in Israel to carry out these operations in the first place? Has anyone, that you know of, said "Look, this is silly. If people don't trust the Israelis to be fair in its military isolation of Gaza, and if the Israelis don't trust the Gazans do to it themselves, why don't we do it?".

Ugh, your post reeks of doublethink. Peace through war.

Hows about, and this is a wacky idea, we try and find a peace where we don't kill people. Not very heroic but can we try. Just going in and fighting the Israelis = more dead people. So countries coming out and denouncing the Israelis is exactly what needs to happen to, you know, not kill more people.

Gringo180 · 30-07-2014 09:21PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

An average of 500 dead civilians a week would barely be a blip on the radar in some conflicts.

Would you feel the same if it was your town being decimated and some of those 500 civilians happened to be your wife, kids, brothers, sisters, parents? What is wrong with people like you get a ****ing grip!!!!

namloc1980 · 30-07-2014 09:23PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

He is being absolutely correct. There are plenty of examples throughout the last century of what can happen to a town and its citizens when war comes to it. An average of 500 dead civilians a week would barely be a blip on the radar in some conflicts.

Ah shur that's alright so. 500 murdered civilians a week is only a "blip". Pray tell us which conflicts are you referring to where the deaths of 500 innocents per week is little more than, as you put it, a "blip"?

Frank Lee Midere · 30-07-2014 09:24PM

Chance The Rapper wrote: »

I can't understand the American support. How can they (congress) honestly stand up, look people in the eye and say that it's not mass murder. How can Obama claim to be anti-war when he's supporting Israel?

Best congress money can buy.

Manic Moran · 30-07-2014 09:27PM

Joshua J wrote: »

Ugh, your post reeks of doublethink. Peace through war.

Hows about, and this is a wacky idea, we try and find a peace where we don't kill people. Not very heroic but can we try. Just going in and fighting the Israelis = more dead people. So countries coming out and denouncing the Israelis is exactly what needs to happen to, you know, not kill more people.

Who said anything about fighting the Israelis?

Go back and actually read my post.

bumper234 · 30-07-2014 09:33PM

Interesting interview here

Rabbi Henry Siegman, Leading Voice of U.S. Jewry, on Gaza: "A Slaughter of Innocents"

When one thinks that this is what is necessary for Israel to survive, that the Zionist dream is based on the slaughter of—repeated slaughter of innocents on a scale that we’re watching these days on television,

He even touches on the subject of ethnic cleansing that Israel took part in when setting up.the state

That he executed civilians. And the rationale given for this when Shavit, some years ago, had an interview with Benny Morris and said to him, "My God, you are saying that there was deliberate ethnic cleansing here?" And Morris said, "Yes, there was." And he says, "And you justify it?" And he said, "Yes, because otherwise there would not have been a state."

Joshua J · 30-07-2014 09:35PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

Who said anything about fighting the Israelis?

Go back and actually read my post.

No, but maybe they should have at least offered to jump in.

Unless you mean as a go between, which makes no sense in the context that i used "jump in". But I'm getting the impression you're just backpeddling now. As if Israel would listen to them anyway.

Dan_Solo · 30-07-2014 09:42PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Hamas getting help from North Korea - a nation compared to Nazi Germany by the UN.

Was that Secretary General Godwin by any chance?

Manic Moran · 30-07-2014 09:43PM

namloc1980 wrote: »

Ah shur that's alright so. 500 murdered civilians a week is only a "blip". Pray tell us which conflicts are you referring to where the deaths of 500 innocents per week is little more than, as you put it, a "blip"?

The obvious one is WW2, where forces far smaller than the Israelis are capable of fielding caused far more casualties in far less time. I pointed out the German assault on Minsk as a perfect example of this.

If you do the maths for the Korean War, 2.7million civilians are estimated to have been killed over 3 years. That's about 18,000/week, -average-. You can imagine what the major city fights would have been like, such as the capture/recapture of Seoul.

The 1994 Chechen War lasted 20 months. A reasonable estimate is 80,000 civilians killed. 4,000 a week, again, average.

Look at Syria today. Since the middle of 2012, only one week has had less than 500 estimated casualties. You can see the size of the blip which this has caused on the news or on Boards. Not much of one.

And that's before you move into wars where war crimes were standard, such as Bosnia, Rwanda, etc.

Manic Moran · 30-07-2014 09:46PM

Joshua J wrote: »

Unless you mean as a go between, which makes no sense in the context that i used "jump in". But I'm getting the impression you're just backpeddling now. As if Israel would listen to them anyway.

For the love of Jesus, go read more than the first line of my post.

I have absolutely no time for symbolic gestures. They cost nothing, and achieve nothing. There is past evidence that actions will attain a level of stability involving Israel, what's wrong with taking that past evidence and applying it to future actions? If Israel won't listen to them anyway, how has UNIFIL been apparently accepted by Israel, and somewhat successful at keeping the peace?

Tuisceanch · 30-07-2014 09:46PM

Well since I'm watching 'Occupation 101' which doesn't paint a flattering image of the Israeli state and which is not too unfamiliar to me I wonder if anyone has an example of a documentary which tries to make a case for the Israeli's and preferably not too ludicrous as to merit deleting but something which might explain how a reasonably intelligent Israeli supporter might feel justified in their world view.

bumper234 · 30-07-2014 09:47PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

The obvious one is WW2, where forces far smaller than the Israelis are capable of fielding caused far more casualties in far less time. I pointed out the German assault on Minsk as a perfect example of this.

If you do the maths for the Korean War, 2.7million civilians are estimated to have been killed over 3 years. That's about 18,000/week, -average-. You can imagine what the major city fights would have been like, such as the capture/recapture of Seoul.

The 1994 Chechen War lasted 20 months. A reasonable estimate is 80,000 civilians killed. 4,000 a week, again, average.

Look at Syria today. Since the middle of 2012, only one week has had less than 500 estimated casualties. You can see the size of the blip which this has caused on the news or on Boards. Not much of one.

And that's before you move into wars where war crimes were standard, such as Bosnia, Rwanda, etc.

So because the numbers are not that high we should.all turn off the news and go back to watching reruns of friends?

funny-celebrity-pictures-nothing-to-see-here-move-along.jpg

funny-celebrity-pictures-nothing-to-see-here-move-along.jpg

Dan_Solo · 30-07-2014 09:47PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

He is being absolutely correct. There are plenty of examples throughout the last century of what can happen to a town and its citizens when war comes to it. An average of 500 dead civilians a week would barely be a blip on the radar in some conflicts.

You mean Whataboutery Wars I and II?

Dan_Solo · 30-07-2014 09:50PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

The obvious one is WW2, where forces far smaller than the Israelis are capable of fielding caused far more casualties in far less time. I pointed out the German assault on Minsk as a perfect example of this.

If you do the maths for the Korean War, 2.7million civilians are estimated to have been killed over 3 years. That's about 18,000/week, -average-. You can imagine what the major city fights would have been like, such as the capture/recapture of Seoul.

The 1994 Chechen War lasted 20 months. A reasonable estimate is 80,000 civilians killed. 4,000 a week, again, average.

Look at Syria today. Since the middle of 2012, only one week has had less than 500 estimated casualties. You can see the size of the blip which this has caused on the news or on Boards. Not much of one.

And that's before you move into wars where war crimes were standard, such as Bosnia, Rwanda, etc.

Oh my god. I'm so sickened by all those historical wars that I actually don't mind that Israel is bombing schools and hospitals today, only killing a few hundred people a week.
FFS...

ebbsy · 30-07-2014 09:55PM

The kids keep gettin blown to pieces.

Manic Moran · 30-07-2014 09:58PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Oh my god. I'm so sickened by all those historical wars that I actually don't mind that Israel is bombing schools and hospitals today, only killing a few hundred people a week.
FFS...

Who said that one shouldn't mind?

I'm just pointing out that the fact that people in schools and hospitals are getting killed are by no means evidence of lack of restraint as many people are posting. I get the feeling that if you 'mind' the current figures, you might be at least slightly irked at the figures if the Israelis decided to throw caution and rules to the wind. People have, I think, today lost perspective of what it means to have a war.

Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August