Palestinaisn being slaughtered and a prick with a cowboy hat is on frint page

Tony EH wrote: »

You've been responded to.

NOT level entire streets of families and murder everything they can.

I haven't seen entire streets levelled in any of the videos.
If the Israelis really wanted to murder everything they can, there wouldn't be any Palestinians today, and no conflict. It wouldn't take the IDF long to bomb Gaza into non existence if they wanted to.

So far, it looks like the IDF & the UN are the only ones who care for Palestinian lives in Gaza.

wes wrote: »

Perhaps don't break the ceasefire in the first place, by attacking Hamas, for something they didn't do in the first place. Perhaps, end there siege, which is an illegal act of collective punishment on a civilian population. End settlement expansion and violence from the IDF against Palestinians civilians in the West Bank, and make an effort to stop settlers attacking Palestinians (to be fair the IDF wouldn't be able to stop this a 100%).

Hamas, should most certainly end there rocket attacks, and also try and stop other from doing so (same for Hamas, here they can't 100% stop other groups from doing this).

The entire notion that there is some kind of 1 sided violence against Israel is nonsense, and the best defense for Israel, is to end its aggression against the Palestinians.

And yet, somehow it doesn't seem logical to you that the Palestinians should stop firing rockets into Israel first?
The Israelis said specifically that if Hamas stops firing rockets the assault will end. How about trying non violence for a change? Just this one time?

Akrasia wrote: »

We are supposed to live in an enlightened age with international law and prohibitions on war crimes. The days when the powerful can just ride roughshod over the weak are supposed to be over.

Israel are occupying Palestine in the West Bank, and they are blockading Palestine in Gaza. When your state are engaging in mass collective punishment of 4.4 million people you have no moral high ground and no right to expect that there will not be reprisals.

There needs to be a process of dis-engagement, but Israel, the only side with any power, are doing nothing but provoking reactions from the Palestinians, constantly allowing illegal settlements to further encroach Palestinian land. Preventing Palestinians from accessing basic goods and services through their blockades.

The statements and actions from the ruling political classes in Israel clearly betray that their long term ambition is not to live in peace with Palestine, but to take control of all of the lands and either force the palestinians to accept israeli rule, or to expell them from the land. (in the good old days of the bible, the Israeli 'chosen people' would have just killed all the men and enslaved all the women and children in order to secure their 'promised lands')

Supposed to my friend, unfortunately we are not even close to getting to this enlightened age – just look around you at what’s going on all over the world.

Why would Israel lift the blockade as long as Hamas is still trying to arm itself with more weapons and fires rockets into Israel?

What is Israel allowed to do in your opinion?
They can’t fight the terrorists because innocents die.
They can’t fight the arms shipments because then there is a blockade and innocents suffer.

So, what do you expect them to do? Roll over and die?

opinionated3 wrote: »

For any of that to happen would you not agree that Hamas would have to change their ideology of destroying the Israeli nation?

They dropped it from there election manifesto, and Israel, the US and Fatah colluded to topple them. They should however, take that further and drop it completely, and the same would also go with the Likud dropping the whole Greater Israel business as well.

However, I think it far more important tp stop the violence on both side is needed regardless of the current ideological statements by either side.

opinionated3 wrote: »

I agree with a lot of what you said just there. I just think that in this conflict the extremist element on both sides is dominant. No moderate voices seem to be heard

At this point that is very much the case.

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

I am not aware of Memri faking translations, can you prove that?

Provided the link in the post you quote.........

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

I
As far as the investigation by the Independent - considering their entire investigation is based on what the Palestinians have to say, and considering the fact that they can't really go anywhere in Gaza without a close Hamas escort - let's just say I don't really think much of such an investigation.

The independent spoke with people in private, and there was 0 mention of a Hamas escort.....

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

I
As for the other clip - slips of the tongue don't just happen (basic psychology). In many cases they represent what the speaker actually thinks.

Yes, well that a completely different argument, but the current proof would suggest Hamas is not using Human Shields.

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

And yet, somehow it doesn't seem logical to you that the Palestinians should stop firing rockets into Israel first?

Calling for a stop to violence on one side is hypocrisy of the highest order. Its absurd to expect either side to stop violence, and allow the other to continue there violence with impunity.

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

The Israelis said specifically that if Hamas stops firing rockets the assault will end. How about trying non violence for a change? Just this one time?

You mean like in the West Bank? All that has gotten them is more settlements.

Also, even if the rockets stop, the siege on Gaza will remain. Sorry, but again its hypocritical to expect one side to end there violence, and for the other to be allowed to continue.

wes wrote: »

Provided the link in the post you quote.........



The independent spoke with people in private, and there was 0 mention of a Hamas escort.....

Wes, you need to do better than that.
If Memri was faking translations, it would have made so much noise that you wouldn't have had a problem giving me a gazillion links.

As for the independent - I stand by what I said. The chance of them being able to conduct an independent proper investigation under the conditions in Gaza is 0.

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

Wes, you need to do better than that.
If Memri was faking translations, it would have made so much noise that you wouldn't have had a problem giving me a gazillion links.

I see no reason to provide multiple links stating the same thing over and over again. I provided the proof already.

You first link is untrustworthy due to the source, and your 2nd relies on a "freudian slip" as proof. You will have to do better.

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

As for the independent - I stand by what I said. The chance of them being able to conduct an independent proper investigation under the conditions in Gaza is 0.

You can stand by what you said, but the lack of an proof on your part, mean that they can safely be ignored.

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

What's the problem with the west bank? I haven't heard of any new land grabs in years, or any new settlements for that matter.
As far as I know it is relatively quiet there, and people there probably have better lives than in most Arab countries around them.

Settlements are being constructed on a weekly basis. People there are unhappy.

Your post is typical of someone completely unfamiliar with the area and its people.

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

What's the problem with the west bank? I haven't heard of any new land grabs in years, or any new settlements for that matter.

Its a well established fact, that settlement expansion in the West Bank, is ongoing. The fact that you seem to be unaware of this, is quite frankly surprising to say the least. Even the Israel government doesn't deny that they are expanding settlements.

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

As far as I know it is relatively quiet there, and people there probably have better lives than in most Arab countries around them.

This is a joke, right? The occupation and settlement expansion, are still happening. Palestinians have no freedom of movement there etc. The IDF and settlers regularly attack Palestinians, before the murder of the 3 settler teenagers, the IDF murdered 2 Palestinians teenagers in the West Bank.

Seriously, you must be taking the piss, all of this is well established. Reported by multiple media organizations the world over.

Here is one example in regard to water rights by the World Bank of all people:
World Bank Publishes Assessment of Restrictions on Palestinian Water Sector Development

Restrictions on land:
Palestinians Access to Area C Key to Economic Recovery and Sustainable Growth

Now thats the world bank, if I started looking at Human Rights orgs, there would be a lot more.

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

As for the siege on Gaza - Israel left Gaza a few years back. All they got in return were increased rocket attacks, which basically justify the continuation of the blockade.

They left Gaza, and then grabbed a bunch of land in the West Bank instead. Plotted with Fatah and the US to over thrown Hamas, after they won the election. Your leaving out some pertinent facts there.

Secondly, so your saying it ok to put a civilian populace under siege, but then condemn Hamas indiscriminate rocket fire on Israeli civilians. Hypocrisy of the highest order, right there. It wrong to target civilians be it Israel or Hamas, and quite frankly your support for Israel doing that, quite frankly leaves you in no position to condemn Hamas, as you have no issues, when Israel does it.

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

When you go for peace, there are many steps that need to be taken on the long road to the coveted goal.
Israel made its first step, and it was a huge one - it left Gaza and 8000 Israelis had to leave their homes.
The next step by Hamas - they increased the rocket fire into Israel's territory.

Now, now, leaving out well established facts. Israel increased settlement expansion in the West Bank, right after. So they gave nothing back. The settlers were in Gaza illegally, and were squatters, and had no business being there in the first place. They, then plotted to have Hamas overthrown with Fatah, and the US, after they won the election.

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

The proof of burden is on Hamas - if they want peace, they need to start acting like it.

Settlement expansion shows that similar proof is needed from Israel.

Yes, Hamas should end rocket fire. Then, Israel should end there siege, end settlement expansion and attacks on Palestinians etc.

wes wrote: »

Its a well established fact, that settlement expansion in the West Bank, is ongoing. The fact that you seem to be unaware of this, is quite frankly surprising to say the least. Even the Israel government doesn't deny that they are expanding settlements.



This is a joke, right? The occupation and settlement expansion, are still happening. Palestinians have no freedom of movement there etc. The IDF and settlers regularly attack Palestinians, before the murder of the 3 settler teenagers, the IDF murdered 2 Palestinians teenagers in the West Bank.

Seriously, you must be taking the piss, all of this is well established. Reported by multiple media organizations the world over.

Here is one example in regard to water rights by the World Bank of all people:
World Bank Publishes Assessment of Restrictions on Palestinian Water Sector Development

Restrictions on land:
Palestinians Access to Area C Key to Economic Recovery and Sustainable Growth

Now thats the world bank, if I started looking at Human Rights orgs, there would be a lot more.




They left Gaza, and then grabbed a bunch of land in the West Bank instead. Plotted with Fatah and the US to over thrown Hamas, after they won the election. Your leaving out some pertinent facts there.

Secondly, so your saying it ok to put a civilian populace under siege, but then condemn Hamas indiscriminate rocket fire on Israeli civilians. Hypocrisy of the highest order, right there. It wrong to target civilians be it Israel or Hamas, and quite frankly your support for Israel doing that, quite frankly leaves you in no position to condemn Hamas, as you have no issues, when Israel does it.



Now, now, leaving out well established facts. Israel increased settlement expansion in the West Bank, right after. So they gave nothing back. The settlers were in Gaza illegally, and were squatters, and had no business being there in the first place. They, then plotted to have Hamas overthrown with Fatah, and the US, after they won the election.



Settlement expansion shows that similar proof is needed from Israel.

Yes, Hamas should end rocket fire. Then, Israel should end there siege, end settlement expansion and attacks on Palestinians etc.

All I see here is a conspiracy theory, and no link that proves anything.
I wasn't arguing about the fact that the Palestinians have ****ty infrastructure and ****ty lives, I'm just arguing that it is their fault for investing everything they have in fighting Israel instead of bettering their citizen's lives.

wes wrote: »

They left Gaza, and then grabbed a bunch of land in the West Bank instead. Plotted with Fatah and the US to over thrown Hamas, after they won the election. Your leaving out some pertinent facts there.

Just out of curiosity - can you show me what land the Israelis grabbed in the west bank to compensate for the land they gave up in Gaza?
(I do expect it to be lets say, at least 10% of the area of Gaza that was handed over to the Palestinians)

1. Not sure about administrative zones, and I don’t really think it matters. The majority of Palestinians in the west bank are under the Palestinian authority’s control, and the roads that the Palestinians are not allowed on are there because Israeli traffic was constantly attacked on the roads.

You don't think it matters that the vast majority of the West Bank is under military occupation and that Palestinian control extends only to large population centres, or in effect the place has been entirely cantonised?

2. If you spend money on rockets and war, how will you have money to build infrastructure? The west bank is only now starting to recover from the effects of all the years of fighting Israel. It will take time, but eventually if they stay on a peaceful track their life quality will be much improved.
In addition, go and check the average quality of life in the rest of the Arab world. I think you would be surprised by what you find.

Wrong, wrong and wrong again. The water supply and aquifers in the West Bank are under the exclusive control of Israel. Supply is sporadic because of direct Israeli policy, not Palestinian lack of investment.

Settlements expand because it’s a natural process for any town/village/city – over time the population grows (mainly births) and more houses are needed. That’s the only settlement growth out there at the moment.
There are no new settlements (unless they are illegal, and Israeli fanatics love those), no land grabs or anything similar.

Are you off your nut? Settlements expand due to the IDF seizing a part of land due to "security concerns", settlements then expand on the back of them. This is an ongoing process. The continued territory seizure and process of house building is a state sponsored activity backed by Netanyahu himself. Settlements in East Jerusalem are springing up on an increasing basis.

http://forward.com/articles/186796/israel-approves-construction-of--new-settlemen/

Furthermore, all settlements are illegal under international law.

4. The barrier stopped suicide bombers and that’s the only justification it needs. When peace comes, the barrier will no longer be needed. Until then – it is better that Israeli lives are kept safe by the barrier, than by the muzzles of guns and raids into the west bank.

Total and utter nonsense as usual. Every single day, large numbers (thousands) of young men smuggle themselves through the barrier to work as day labourers in Israel. They dig tunnels, cut fences, hide in the boot of cars or else get smuggled in by Palestinians with Israeli citizenship. If the barrier doesn't keep out 18 year old hod carriers it sure as f*ck won't keep out a determined militant organisation. The barrier illegally annexed 10% of the territory.

5. The IDF doesn’t conduct raids because it is bored. They conduct raids to stop terrorism.

The IDF conducts raids because that's part and parcel of presiding over an illegal military occupation.

To be honest mate it's clear you've never been to the West Bank and you';ve very little understanding of what goes on there.