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Dettori

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    #32
    FIVE2_THREE
    Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭FIVE2_THREE


    ComplyOrDie wrote: »
    In fairness FIVE2_THREE if that’s how you define a Jockey then you need to open your eyes. Gordon Richards won nearly 5,000 races including 4/5 classics in one year and the Derby eluded him for 20 odd years. We understand he may not be your favourite jockey and he certainly isn’t mine but if you ride 200 G1 winners all around the world (especially for an outfit like the Blues) then you are closer to the top than to the bottom. What exactly has Barcelona/De souse and the others done since they took over? Won a ledger thats about it. I’d have Frankie before I’d have the two above any day of the week even if it were Derby day.

    I see your point BUT Gordon Richards was not ridding for one of the preeminent powerhouses of the sport for most of his career. I use the classics as a measuring point because everything must come together. the right horse, the right conditioning and the jockey must have the right nerve.Gordon Richards was an excellent jockey but he wasn't ridding nowhere near the quality of animal Godolphin had over the 20 years Frankie was employed there. I think Frankie is a quality jockey even at this point but people who praise him cant have it both ways. they can't mention the 200 group ones and the 7 wins at Royal ascot and forget about His underwhelming Derby record in both England and Ireland. Michelangelo may have had the Monalisa and the Sistine Chapel but I'm also sure he had a few that he tossed in the scrap heap also.You have to take the good with the not so good.


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    #33
    FIVE2_THREE
    Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭FIVE2_THREE


    The Hurricane wrote: »
    Cant believe some of the negative comments here about in my opinion the best jockey of all time. If i had a decent racehorse Frankie would ride him everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. Hes not a retained jockey by a big stable anymore hence the lack of quality rides. Hes a controversial character who's had his problems aired out in the media which everyone knows about. Hes one of the main reasons Flat racing is so popular and on the map. I've never seen anyone try so hard on a horse when they are in contention or creative taking a chance going the awkward way to get a gap and know when to go and when to not. When he went through the card in Ascot 3 or 4 of those horses were quality the rest were average his talent and ability as a jockey got them over the line. I don't think anyone else could do it to be honest I agree hes not got a great record in the derby but has he not won nearly every other classic there is in England America France Germany Italy etc ? The best horse he ever rode Lammtarra died the other day won the derby Walter Swinburne had the ride in derby , but he went on to win the King George and the Arch with Frankie on board. Hes ridden so many great horses in the past and of higher breeding quality. I was 19 when I walked into the bookies on a Saturday as a Galway student with 10 pounds. I walked out with just over 5k solely because of Frankie Dettori that's the most I ever won and I don't believe any other jockey will go through the card at a premium meeting like that again. I met him at the curragh racecourse said hello and had a brief chat he was rushing for the weights room and made a few stops getting photos taken with kids and their folks seemed like a genuine guy. I remember him winning after he was nearly killed in a plane crash how emotional he was and how grateful to the person who pulled him out, sometimes comes across a cocky but to do the job he does confidence is key. Best flat jockey in the world all things considered if hes riding a half decent horse.
    With all due respect. His Current employer Al Shaqab may not be Godolphin at this point but they are not a bottom barrel operation either. Frankie is ridding quality horses for them.


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    #34
    hucklebuck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,173 ✭✭✭hucklebuck


    ComplyOrDie wrote: »
    In fairness Hucklebuck what top horses are you talking about? Richard Hughes hardly set the world alight when he was working for the Prince and now that he's in a very consistent yard booting in the winners (A lot of confidence) he's on a list of decent jockeys (don’t mean to take away from RH, just using him as an example), Your ammunition and the trainers backing you have a major impact on how well you do.

    Apart from his pick of Godolphin horses for 16 years, Authorized, Ouija Board, Ravens Pass, Camelot and Treve?

    Are you saying he is still riding to the same level he was 10 years ago? If he is surely he would be picking up good spares since Barzelona and Hannigan started riding for Godolphin.

    Fallon is getting plenty of rides and he must be 7/8 years older, because he is still riding very well.


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    #35
    hucklebuck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,173 ✭✭✭hucklebuck


    Gregk961 wrote: »
    Dettori has definatly given out some poor rides in the last few years though seems to have lost his sparkle

    He is on the slide quite a while now imo.


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    #36
    hucklebuck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,173 ✭✭✭hucklebuck


    Ian Whelan wrote: »
    Tony McCoy has a similar record in the Grand National but there's no doubting his ability. 7 winners in 1 day at Royal Ascot is simply amazing. Dettori is an excellent jockey and seems like a genuinely nice guy. Willie Carson won 4 English Derbys and most would agree that Dettori is the better rider. Joseph O'Brien has won 2 English Derbys for heaven's sake so it's really not a good way to measure ability.

    You cant seriously be comparing a 4m4f race with 30 of the biggest fences around with 40 runners, where a lot of horses dont get the trip, fall, are interfered with

    A 1m4f flat race that horses are bred for with probably no more than 15 runners and if the jockey has a good horse in the right place he has a very good chance of winning.

    Cant believe you rubbished Joey either, he has done remarkably well for a young guy who is that tall.


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    #37
    nuckeythompson
    Registered Users Posts: 939 ✭✭✭nuckeythompson


    FIVE2_THREE wrote: »
    No, I judge Jockeys By Classic wins. because you only get one crack at it. there is a reason why Lester Piggot's 9 Derbies are always mentioned.

    thats poppycock. how can you judge the likes of frankie on lack of derby wins when he not been given the horses. As Piggot said 90% horse 10% jockey.


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    #38
    hucklebuck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,173 ✭✭✭hucklebuck


    The Hurricane wrote: »
    Cant believe some of the negative comments here about in my opinion the best jockey of all time. If i had a decent racehorse Frankie would ride him everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. Hes not a retained jockey by a big stable anymore hence the lack of quality rides. Hes a controversial character who's had his problems aired out in the media which everyone knows about. Hes one of the main reasons Flat racing is so popular and on the map. I've never seen anyone try so hard on a horse when they are in contention or creative taking a chance going the awkward way to get a gap and know when to go and when to not. When he went through the card in Ascot 3 or 4 of those horses were quality the rest were average his talent and ability as a jockey got them over the line. I don't think anyone else could do it to be honest I agree hes not got a great record in the derby but has he not won nearly every other classic there is in England America France Germany Italy etc ? The best horse he ever rode Lammtarra died the other day won the derby Walter Swinburne had the ride in derby , but he went on to win the King George and the Arch with Frankie on board. Hes ridden so many great horses in the past and of higher breeding quality. I was 19 when I walked into the bookies on a Saturday as a Galway student with 10 pounds. I walked out with just over 5k solely because of Frankie Dettori that's the most I ever won and I don't believe any other jockey will go through the card at a premium meeting like that again. I met him at the curragh racecourse said hello and had a brief chat he was rushing for the weights room and made a few stops getting photos taken with kids and their folks seemed like a genuine guy. I remember him winning after he was nearly killed in a plane crash how emotional he was and how grateful to the person who pulled him out, sometimes comes across a cocky but to do the job he does confidence is key. Best flat jockey in the world all things considered if hes riding a half decent horse.

    Not a chance he is the best jockey ever, he had a chance to be but he has been on a slippery slope for quite a while now.

    Mc Coy can carry a crap horse to victory, Frankie has been struggling for quite a while to win on decent horses.

    People go on about him losing the Godolphin job like it happened 10 years ago but its only 2 years, he had them for 18 years and rode all over the world picking up some very good rides from other trainers in the process.

    Plenty of jockies have problems that get aired yet can still win and get good rides and be performing as well as ever in their 40s

    I thinking you are letting the 5k and the fact you have met him cloud your judgement.


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    #39
    ziggy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭ziggy


    This post has been deleted.


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    #40
    Peintre Celebre
    Registered Users Posts: 2,484 ✭✭✭Peintre Celebre


    Hurricane you're letting that money you won from him blur your vision. To try and make a case for him being better than Kinane or Murtagh is futile, and that's just naming two


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    #41
    andyman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,642 ✭✭✭andyman


    While I'm enjoying this debate, let's try calm down a little. A couple of posts have been deleted already and there's a couple more that are borderline.

    By all means continue this debate, but let's not try get off track by petty little pot shots.

    There's no doubt in my mind that Frankie was always well regarded as a jockey, however I just didn't see the same appeal. I would agree that if I had a choice between all the jockeys out there to ride my horse in any Group 1 that I'd pick someone like Ryan Moore ahead of him. If we're going back in time I'd pick Kinane or Murtagh as well.


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    #42
    FIVE2_THREE
    Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭FIVE2_THREE


    nuckeythompson wrote: »
    thats poppycock. how can you judge the likes of frankie on lack of derby wins when he not been given the horses. As Piggot said 90% horse 10% jockey.

    He was given top shelf stock from Godolphin for 20 years. Coolmore takes a beating on here for their success but EVERY HORSE they have ever been successful with was purchased at auction. meaning any and everybody had a chance to buy him or her. Godolphin's finances tower those of Coolmores and in some cases they even bred their horses. so why does Godolphin and everybody associated with them get a pass for failing ? and Coolmore gets a beating for succeeding ? this is a result orientated business is it not ?


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    #43
    nuckeythompson
    Registered Users Posts: 939 ✭✭✭nuckeythompson


    FIVE2_THREE wrote: »
    He was given top shelf stock from Godolphin for 20 years. Coolmore takes a beating on here for their success but EVERY HORSE they have ever been successful with was purchased at auction. meaning any and everybody had a chance to buy him or her. Godolphin's finances tower those of Coolmores and in some cases they even bred their horses. so why does Godolphin and everybody associated with them get a pass for failing ? and Coolmore gets a beating for succeeding ? this is a result orientated business is it not ?

    The discussion is not about coolmore or godolphin or breeding, its about Dettori. Dettori was not given many great chances to win a derby due to the hand he was dealt. When he did win Godolphin let him take the ride on Authorized as they could not give him a derby winning horse.
    take a look at his acheivements here
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankie_Dettori#Major_wins


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    #44
    FIVE2_THREE
    Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭FIVE2_THREE


    nuckeythompson wrote: »
    The discussion is not about coolmore or godolphin or breeding, its about Dettori. Dettori was not given many great chances to win a derby due to the hand he was dealt. When he did win Godolphin let him take the ride on Authorized as they could not give him a derby winning horse.
    take a look at his acheivements here
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankie_Dettori#Major_wins

    I'm well aware of what the topic is about I DID START IT. so you are you saying all of those horses Frankie rode for Godolphin in ether the Epsom or Irish Derbies never had a chance of winning ? being a bit of a revisionist are you not ?


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    #45
    nuckeythompson
    Registered Users Posts: 939 ✭✭✭nuckeythompson


    Im not going back on anything. He didnt have horses as good as the the ones who won the derbys. He also has an Irish Derby to his name from 94. He has a stunning record most jockeys can only dream of. I think its fair to say Godolphin has a poor record in the derby


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    #46
    FIVE2_THREE
    Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭FIVE2_THREE


    nuckeythompson wrote: »
    Im not going back on anything. He didnt have horses as good as the the ones who won the derbys. He also has an Irish Derby to his name from 94. He has a stunning record most jockeys can only dream of. I think its fair to say Godolphin has a poor record in the derby

    Define what you mean by "He didn't have horses good enough" He was on some of the finest stock in the world for 20 years. I've compiled a list of all of his Epsom Derby mounts. Hindsight is 20/20. it's easy to look back after the race and say a certain horse wasn't good enough but as the head rider for Godolphin he chose the best horse in his opinion.

    Mounts Wins 2nds 3rds
    19 1 1 4

    2014-NO MOUNT
    2013-NO MOUNT
    2012- NO MOUNT
    2011-11th On Ocean War
    2010-3rd On Rewilding
    2009-9th On Kite Wood
    2008-7th On Rio de la Plata
    2007-Won on Authorized
    2006-9th on Linda's Lad**
    2005-3rd On Dubawi
    2004-7th on Snow Ridge (Rule of Law 2nd)
    2003-8th on Graikos
    2002-7th on Naheef (Moon Ballad 3rd)
    2001-3rd on Tobougg
    2000-NO MOUNT
    1999-9th on Dubai Millenieum
    1998-9th on Cape Verdi(City Honors 2nd)
    1997-9th On Bold Demand
    1996-3rd on Shantou
    1995-2nd Tamure
    1994-10th on Linney Head
    1993-8th On Wolf Prince**
    1992-16th on Pollen Count

    All horses were Godolphin owned unless indicated


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    #47
    paddyisreal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭paddyisreal


    Peintre Celebre wrote: »
    Hurricane you're letting that money you won from him blur your vision. To try and make a case for him being better than Kinane or Murtagh is futile, and that's just naming two

    great jockeys but dettori in a different league. How many group ones has moore murtagh or kinane rode. I bet it aint anywhere near 200. Also he isn't finished , he might end up with another thirty yet. I would judge ryan moore when his career is over.


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    #48
    paddyisreal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭paddyisreal


    FIVE2_THREE wrote: »
    Define what you mean by "He didn't have horses good enough" He was on some of the finest stock in the world for 20 years. I've compiled a list of all of his Epsom Derby mounts. Hindsight is 20/20. it's easy to look back after the race and say a certain horse wasn't good enough but as the head rider for Godolphin he chose the best horse in his opinion.

    Mounts Wins 2nds 3rds
    19 1 1 4

    2014-NO MOUNT
    2013-NO MOUNT
    2012- NO MOUNT
    2011-11th On Ocean War
    2010-3rd On Rewilding
    2009-9th On Kite Wood
    2008-7th On Rio de la Plata
    2007-Won on Authorized
    2006-9th on Linda's Lad**
    2005-3rd On Dubawi
    2004-7th on Snow Ridge (Rule of Law 2nd)
    2003-8th on Graikos
    2002-7th on Naheef (Moon Ballad 3rd)
    2001-3rd on Tobougg
    2000-NO MOUNT
    1999-9th on Dubai Millenieum
    1998-9th on Cape Verdi(City Honors 2nd)
    1997-9th On Bold Demand
    1996-3rd on Shantou
    1995-2nd Tamure
    1994-10th on Linney Head
    1993-8th On Wolf Prince**
    1992-16th on Pollen Count

    All horses were Godolphin owned unless indicated


    as before. The derby is not the be all and end all. He has won every top race in the world in different continents numerous times. Top class and highlighting the english and irish derby is just being pedantic


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    #49
    FIVE2_THREE
    Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭FIVE2_THREE


    paddyisreal wrote: »
    as before. The derby is not the be all and end all. He has won every top race in the world in different continents numerous times. Top class and highlighting the english and irish derby is just being pedantic

    LESTER WOULD DISAGREE


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    #50
    Peintre Celebre
    Registered Users Posts: 2,484 ✭✭✭Peintre Celebre


    paddyisreal wrote: »
    great jockeys but dettori in a different league. How many group ones has moore murtagh or kinane rode. I bet it aint anywhere near 200. Also he isn't finished , he might end up with another thirty yet. I would judge ryan moore when his career is over.

    Ah come on. Do you watch racing or just read stats. Mick Kinane is so superior to Dettori it's incomparable


    And I'm not sure of how many they've won definitely not 200 but neither of them had the backing of Godolphin for the guts of 20 years. Dettori will ride about 3 more gr.1's I'd imagine that number of 30 couldn't be more wrong. Also basing it on number of gr.1s won isn't necessarily the right indicator. It's like saying Darren Fletcher is better than Steven Gerrard because he's won premier league medals


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    #51
    paddyisreal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭paddyisreal


    Peintre Celebre wrote: »
    Ah come on. Do you watch racing or just read stats. Mick Kinane is so superior to Dettori it's incomparable


    And I'm not sure of how many they've won definitely not 200 but neither of them had the backing of Godolphin for the guts of 20 years. Dettori will ride about 3 more gr.1's I'd imagine that number of 30 couldn't be more wrong. Also basing it on number of gr.1s won isn't necessarily the right indicator. It's like saying Darren Fletcher is better than Steven Gerrard because he's won premier league medals


    What is the right indicator then ? He has rode over 500 group race winners and is the best jockey in the last twenty years. That is based on facts and not just an opinion. He also has rode some of the best races I have seen . I would put kinane a clise second.


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    #52
    Peintre Celebre
    Registered Users Posts: 2,484 ✭✭✭Peintre Celebre


    Yet only 3 times champion in Britain. I won't argue any more, it's like comparing Villa and United. Each to their own


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    #53
    FIVE2_THREE
    Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭FIVE2_THREE


    Kanane has 133 career Group one wins. The Bulk of those came over a 6 year span from 98-2003 when he rode 58 group one winners as Head jockey for AOB
    just imagine the total He would have IF He were head rider to Coolmore for 20 years


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    #54
    FIVE2_THREE
    Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭FIVE2_THREE


    ALSO while employed as head rider to Coolmore from 98-2003 Mick won Champion jockey in Ireland 3 times (98,2002,2003)
    oh and by the way He also gripped up 1 Epsom Derby and 2 Irish Derbies.


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    #55
    zpehtsfd
    Registered Users Posts: 627 ✭✭✭zpehtsfd


    FIVE2_THREE wrote: »
    Frankie is headed to the states to ride at Saratoga. was He fired by the Qutari's ? He has looked like a lost sheep since Godolphin showed him the door.

    This first post by you says it all i.e. it was as if you were hoping that Frankie was in fact fired from his current position. Not sure where the animosity comes from but i hope it doesn't stay with you forever. IMO Frankie has been an excellent ambassador for racing and he will be sadly missed, by the majority, when he does leave.

    Also i'd say the best thing that ever happened to Frankie was when he lost the Godolphin job as they've been in complete disarray ever since.


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    #56
    FIVE2_THREE
    Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭FIVE2_THREE


    zpehtsfd wrote: »
    This first post by you says it all i.e. it was as if you were hoping that Frankie was in fact fired from his current position. Not sure where the animosity comes from but i hope it doesn't stay with you forever. IMO Frankie has been an excellent ambassador for racing and he will be sadly missed, by the majority, when he does leave.

    Also i'd say the best thing that ever happened to Frankie was when he lost the Godolphin job as they've been in complete disarray ever since.

    Whether or Not Mr.Dettori was released or is still employed is no matter of mine. and despite how you may feel about my"animosity"toward him I have said at least twice on this very board in this very topic that He is a fine quality rider even at this point where his career has clearly slipped. I just don't buy into the hype about him and the praising of him. As far as you believing the best thing to ever happen to him was Godolphin releasing him.well that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But I'm sure his current financial state says otherwise.


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    #57
    paddyisreal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭paddyisreal


    FIVE2_THREE wrote: »
    Kanane has 133 career Group one wins. The Bulk of those came over a 6 year span from 98-2003 when he rode 58 group one winners as Head jockey for AOB
    just imagine the total He would have IF He were head rider to Coolmore for 20 years

    IF being the word. My aunt balls and all that. Remember the ride he gave rewilding in ascot when he rode a certain ryan moore to sleep or snow fairy in leopardstown or ravens pass in the breders cup classic ... the list goes on. Isnt frankie the ONLY european based jockey to ride the breeders cup classic winner ? What a ****ing jockey


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    #58
    paddyisreal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭paddyisreal


    FIVE2_THREE wrote: »
    Kanane has 133 career Group one wins. The Bulk of those came over a 6 year span from 98-2003 when he rode 58 group one winners as Head jockey for AOB
    just imagine the total He would have IF He were head rider to Coolmore for 20 years

    IF being the word. My aunt balls and all that. Remember the ride he gave rewilding in ascot when he rode a certain ryan moore to sleep or snow fairy in leopardstown or ravens pass in the breders cup classic ... the list goes on. Isnt frankie the ONLY european based jockey to ride the breeders cup classic winner ? What a ****ing jockey


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    #59
    tryfix
    Registered Users Posts: 2,702 ✭✭✭tryfix


    Frankie was a great jockey, he had a great ability to ride from the front and ability to get down really low in the saddle and push the horse out to the line. He was no muck savage bateing horse over the line, but he was a powerful driver of horses and had an excellent clock in his head.

    He can still ride well, but the fire isn't there anymore and he has his demons which distract him for now. I forget when he started to give up on chasing the jockeys title and to concentrate on quality, but the spark died a bit then. I'd still have zero problem with him riding a horse that I fancied.


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    #60
    Peintre Celebre
    Registered Users Posts: 2,484 ✭✭✭Peintre Celebre


    Swain in the Classic, Dar Re Mi in Santa Anita too paddy. Two shockers


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    #61
    tryfix
    Registered Users Posts: 2,702 ✭✭✭tryfix


    Piggot was the best this side of the Atlantic.

    Johnny Murtagh for my money was the canniest and most capable rider in recent years.


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