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The Academies

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  • #962
    jwrocks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 12 ✭jwrocks


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    Wouldnt be so harsh. Decent player who has 2 good years of Irish 20s behind him and is still a very decent option who could def go on to be a provincial regular. Not everyone in academy will go on to be a regular with a province but too early to dismiss any guy playing 20s

    he is barely 6'3, he isnt a great athlete.. he will do fine and we need a backrow in the academy to cover 6 and 8 so that all makes sense but he id be surprised if he was here when he is 26.


  • #963
    jwrocks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 12 ✭jwrocks


    Hagz wrote: »
    That's an impossible rule to stick to. Even if an academy player only reaches the heights of Darragh Fanning it was still worth it to bring them through. Because as was evident last season, Leinster need Darragh Fannings sometimes.

    No one needs Darragh Fannings, he is a poor player whose gametime should have went to Coghlan Murray or Hudson.


  • #964
    FrannoFan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭FrannoFan


    Tox56 wrote: »
    What do they have to lose by bringing in the likes of Brewer and O'Loughlin with Leinster in desperate need of homegrown centres. I'm very happy they took something of a gamble with them, O'Loughlin particularly who hasn't had much of a chance to show what he can do due to injury

    I wasn't particularly impressed by McCarthy but if they don't bring him in there will be 0 scrum halves in the whole academy so there's a spot there that would otherwise just be left empty, and he started regularly for Ireland, it's worth investing some time in him

    Don't mind a gamble on o'loughlin as he was injured but brewer got game time and was found wanting. Tom daly and Tom Farrell there at centre as well as coughlin being regarded as a centre.
    The academy is not based on filling a player roster, if there isn't a 9 good enough they don't give out a spot just because you happen to play that position.
    Underwhelmed by some of the calls.


  • #965
    FrannoFan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭FrannoFan


    Hagz wrote: »
    That's an impossible rule to stick to. Even if an academy player only reaches the heights of Darragh Fanning it was still worth it to bring them through. Because as was evident last season, Leinster need Darragh Fannings sometimes.

    Obviously that's not a rule to stick to but the potential of a very high ceiling has to be there. players fall short of what they could be but when you are looking at a young guy you have to be thinking how good can he be. To use your own example if you see an 18 year old and think he has some size he could be the next daragh fanning or you see a guy and think he is lightening, he could be the next Dennis hickie who should you be aiming to recruit?


  • #966
    jwrocks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 12 ✭jwrocks


    FrannoFan wrote: »
    Girvan Dempsey only really getting his feet under the table as academy boss. Not overly impressed by his judgement calls this year. The rule used to be are you good enough to play for Ireland,if so you get in. Playing 20's regularly was a given. Brewer wasn't a starter, o'loughlin was injured but neither was overly impressive in school. MacArthy was average enough at 9(compared to Luke McGrath he is way off) Timmons is nothing remarkable but could be a decent back row. Fitzpatrick on the wing was unremarkable. Kellegher and Byrne look promising.but only 2 of the lot will make leinster let alone Ireland.
    Dempsey over rated a lot of these whe he was working with them in the schools. Not sure he has the years experience to judge the standard generally required.

    so eh what changes would have made?


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  • #967
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    jwrocks wrote: »
    No one needs Darragh Fannings, he is a poor player whose gametime should have went to Coghlan Murray or Hudson.
    Don't be so harsh on Fanning. He is not a poor player and filled a hole and was fine. Not going to be European cup starter but was fine for games he played.
    FrannoFan wrote: »
    Don't mind a gamble on o'loughlin as he was injured but brewer got game time and was found wanting. Tom daly and Tom Farrell there at centre as well as coughlin being regarded as a centre.
    The academy is not based on filling a player roster, if there isn't a 9 good enough they don't give out a spot just because you happen to play that position.
    Underwhelmed by some of the calls.
    Would give Brewer time. He had been injured and got called up out of nowhere to play 20s national team. He has another year to go at 20s.
    Wouldn't worry so much about the signings


  • #968
    FrannoFan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭FrannoFan


    jwrocks wrote: »
    so eh what changes would have made?

    From this years 20's you have leavy and Adam Byrne there already. Give out half Byrne, ringrose and full back kellegher spots. 5 from a given batch of 20's is about right. Bear in mind this wasn't regarded as a stellar year quality wise prior to an unexpectedly good World Cup.

    -the loose head prop Dooley as well was worth a go


  • #969
    jwrocks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 12 ✭jwrocks


    simply put they do need players for the A team..
    McCarthy, Byrne, Brewer, Ringrose are all playing 20s again next year.
    Adam Byrne had a horror show at the JWC as an under-19 but got an academy place.
    All the players put in the academy are worthy of investment, all of them wont end up being internationals but they have all shown potential.


  • #970
    jwrocks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 12 ✭jwrocks


    FrannoFan wrote: »
    From this years 20's you have leavy and Adam Byrne there already. Give out half Byrne, ringrose and full back kellegher spots. 5 from a given batch of 20's is about right. Bear in mind this wasn't regarded as a stellar year quality wise prior to an unexpectedly good World Cup.

    you forgot about Dooley.
    so you would have added three players to this years academy? Simply unrealistic.

    1993 there was the Byrne twins, Thornbury, JVDF, Crosbie, Daly, Farrell, McGrath.
    1994 there is Leavy, Dooley, Molony, Byrne, O'Loughlin, Kelleher, Fitzpatrick, Timmins.
    1995 there is McCarthy, Brewer, Byrne, Ringrose, Dardis

    8 players born in 1993, 8 players born in 1994 and 5 players so far from 1995.


  • #971
    jwrocks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 12 ✭jwrocks


    Also its a lie that you had to prove yourself at Ireland u20 to make the academy.

    Tadhg Beirne - joined after playing u20s
    Cathal Marsh - joined after playing u20s
    Steve Crosbie - joined after playing u20s
    Thomas Daly - joined after playing u20s
    Ian Fitzpatrick - joined after playing u20s
    Cian Kelleher - joined after playing u20s
    Peadar Timmins - joined after playing u20s
    Thomas Farrell - joined after playing u20s
    Rory O'Loughlin - joined after impressing for 19s but missing most of this season with shoulder injury. Played for Leinster A in 2012.

    Josh Van Der Flier - joined a year after leaving school as an under-19.
    Adam Byrne - joined a year after leaving school as an under-19.
    Peter Dooley - joined a year after leaving school as an under-19.
    Harrison Brewer - joined a year after leaving school as an under-19.
    Ross Byrne - joined a year after leaving school as an under-19.
    Nick McCarthy - joined a year after leaving school as an under-19.
    Garry Ringrose - joined a year after leaving school as an under-19.

    Bryan Byrne - joined straight from school
    Ed Byrne - joined straight from school
    Jordan Coghlan - joined straight from school
    Daniel Leavy - joined straight from school
    Gavin Thornbury - joined straight from school
    Billy Dardis - joined straight from school
    Ross Molony - joined straight from school


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  • #972
    Quint2010
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    Very surprised Brewer got a spot over Peter Robb.


  • #973
    Jimmy Savory Refrigeration
    Posts: 0 ✭ Jimmy Savory Refrigeration


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    Very surprised Brewer got a spot over Peter Robb.

    Peter Robb joined the Connacht academy afaik.


  • #974
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    Very surprised Brewer got a spot over Peter Robb.
    Are you? Brewer while IMO pushed into 20s national side a bit too early has another year of age grade rugby and Leinster must think he can do better over time. Robb will get plenty of game time with Connacht
    Khalid Poor Jeep wrote: »
    Peter Robb joined the Connacht academy afaik.
    He has. Is listed above


  • #975
    FrannoFan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭FrannoFan


    jwrocks wrote: »
    Also its a lie that you had to prove yourself at Ireland u20 to make the academy.

    Tadhg Beirne - joined after playing u20s
    Cathal Marsh - joined after playing u20s
    Steve Crosbie - joined after playing u20s
    Thomas Daly - joined after playing u20s
    Ian Fitzpatrick - joined after playing u20s
    Cian Kelleher - joined after playing u20s
    Peadar Timmins - joined after playing u20s
    Thomas Farrell - joined after playing u20s
    Rory O'Loughlin - joined after impressing for 19s but missing most of this season with shoulder injury. Played for Leinster A in 2012.

    Josh Van Der Flier - joined a year after leaving school as an under-19.
    Adam Byrne - joined a year after leaving school as an under-19.
    Peter Dooley - joined a year after leaving school as an under-19.
    Harrison Brewer - joined a year after leaving school as an under-19.
    Ross Byrne - joined a year after leaving school as an under-19.
    Nick McCarthy - joined a year after leaving school as an under-19.
    Garry Ringrose - joined a year after leaving school as an under-19.

    Bryan Byrne - joined straight from school
    Ed Byrne - joined straight from school
    Jordan Coghlan - joined straight from school
    Daniel Leavy - joined straight from school
    Gavin Thornbury - joined straight from school
    Billy Dardis - joined straight from school
    Ross Molony - joined straight from school

    Didn't say you had to play 20's to get in just said it was a given that you would be of that calibre. All of the above played 20's the list you have who joined at 19's all played 20's prior to getting in.
    The straight out of school group were all high quality schools players where there was in many cases pressure from others to sign them or miss them.(coughlans cricket credentials were wheeled out etc.)
    Sure you could add Luke fitz and Conway who skipped the whole thing straight out of school.


  • #976
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    FrannoFan wrote: »
    Didn't say you had to play 20's to get in just said it was a given that you would be of that calibre. All of the above played 20's the list you have who joined at 19's all played 20's prior to getting in.
    The straight out of school group were all high quality schools players where there was in many cases pressure from others to sign them or miss them.(coughlans cricket credentials were wheeled out etc.)
    Sure you could add Luke fitz and Conway who skipped the whole thing straight out of school.
    I don't think its a given that you have to play 20s. It will totally vary year on year and depend on Leinster's need to sign a player for a position etc.


  • #977
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    FrannoFan wrote: »
    To use your own example if you see an 18 year old and think he has some size he could be the next daragh fanning or you see a guy and think he is lightening, he could be the next Dennis hickie who should you be aiming to recruit?

    That implies that you think there are better players looked over in favour of the new recruits.
    jwrocks wrote: »
    No one needs Darragh Fannings, he is a poor player whose gametime should have went to Coghlan Murray or Hudson.

    The point is that as the season goes on you need to call on the depth of your squad, so even if an academy product doesn't turn out to be great, they are still needed.


  • #978
    Not Playing Tiddlywinks Vinny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 509 ✭✭✭Not Playing Tiddlywinks Vinny


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    I don't think its a given that you have to play 20s. It will totally vary year on year and depend on Leinster's need to sign a player for a position etc.

    If lads are good enough for the academy system they should be at a standard to be involved in a 20s international set up. If not they (in my opinion) should be left in sub-academy or just playing AIL to prove their worth. I'd be disappointed to have an academy selection with lads not involved in the 20s set up (at their age grade)! That should be the marker (Injury the only exception)!

    Probably have a few disagreeing but is just my thoughts on the subject of Academy standards


  • #979
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    It's possible that if Henshaw, Olding and Farrell had been fit and available then neither Tom Daly or Tom Farrell would have been involved in the u20 set-up.


  • #980
    twmiles
    Site Banned Posts: 6 ✭twmiles


    Not Playing Tiddlywinks Vinny wrote: »
    If lads are good enough for the academy system they should be at a standard to be involved in a 20s international set up. If not they (in my opinion) should be left in sub-academy or just playing AIL to prove their worth. I'd be disappointed to have an academy selection with lads not involved in the 20s set up (at their age grade)! That should be the marker (Injury the only exception)!

    Probably have a few disagreeing but is just my thoughts on the subject of Academy standards

    this years class:
    Harrison Brewer(Under-19) - 5 under-20 caps
    Ross Byrne(Under-19) - 10 under-20 caps
    Nick McCarthy(Under-19) - 10 under-20 caps
    Garry Ringrose(Under-19) - 7 under-20 caps
    Ian Fitzpatrick(Under-20) - 3 under-20 caps
    Cian Kelleher(Under-20) - 8 under-20 caps
    Rory O'Loughlin(Under-20) - 0 under-20 caps
    Peadar Timmins(Under-20) - 17 under-20 caps

    O'Loughlin was very unlucky due to his shoulder problem meaning he was out for most of the season. He did play for Leinster A in 2012 and was a star performer for the 19s in 2013. He is very similar to Colm O'Shea who entered the academy despite not playing 20s for Ireland due to injury.
    Apart from him only Brewer and Fitzpatrick were not regular starters for the 20s this year, Brewer is still eligible for 20s next year and has generally been highly regarded by leinster and ireland under age coaches. Fitzpatrick is a solid if unspectacular player pretty similar to Andrew Boyle.

    Nothing outrageous I think, Peter Robb is the only player who makes no sense.. but he has been in the sub-academy for 2 years and Leinster have had a lot of time to evaluate him.


  • #981
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Not Playing Tiddlywinks Vinny wrote: »
    If lads are good enough for the academy system they should be at a standard to be involved in a 20s international set up. If not they (in my opinion) should be left in sub-academy or just playing AIL to prove their worth. I'd be disappointed to have an academy selection with lads not involved in the 20s set up (at their age grade)! That should be the marker (Injury the only exception)!

    Probably have a few disagreeing but is just my thoughts on the subject of Academy standards
    Not always and will vary on case to case basis. James Cronin didn't play much under 20 international rugby and has looked very good at pro level for Munster this season. I don't think if not at that level you should be left at sub academy level. Yes playing 20s international level should be a marker but not the marker


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  • #982
    Stan27
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Stan27


    Was J. Loughman picked up???


  • #983
    ArmchairQB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 958 ✭✭✭ArmchairQB


    Have to agree a bit with Franno Fan in that it seems we took in a few players this season just to fill positions rather than being outstanding candidates. Timmins, McCarthy, Brewer & O'Loughlin are well down on standard on previous years in their positions and I wouldn't hold out much hope of them being around in 3 years.

    Why do Leinster have to take a punt on these payers? Why rush in? We should wait until there are players of really good potential available and if that means taking 2 x 9's or 2 x 13's in the same year so be it. Let hem battle it out. I will be interested how this years year 2 lads get on this season.


  • #984
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Stan27 wrote: »
    Was J. Loughman picked up???
    No. Rare to see props added directly out of school and playing u19 scrum laws. Will play 20s and see how he grasps with full scrimmaging and may get added next season
    ArmchairQB wrote: »
    Have to agree a bit with Franno Fan in that it seems we took in a few players this season just to fill positions rather than being outstanding candidates. Timmins, McCarthy, Brewer & O'Loughlin are well down on standard on previous years in their positions and I wouldn't hold out much hope of them being around in 3 years.

    Why do Leinster have to take a punt on these payers? Why rush in? We should wait until there are players of really good potential available and if that means taking 2 x 9's or 2 x 13's in the same year so be it. Let hem battle it out. I will be interested how this years year 2 lads get on this season.
    I think that's harsh enough. They were taken in as they were the outstanding candidates for this year. Maybe the few added are not as good as some who entered academy in previous years but they have the
    potential and its ridiculous to say not much hope of them being around in 3 years.
    Leinster aren't rushing in. They are taken a punt as these guys have potential and are the best around


  • #985
    ArmchairQB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 958 ✭✭✭ArmchairQB


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    No. Rare to see props added directly out of school and playing u19 scrum laws. Will play 20s and see how he grasps with full scrimmaging and may get added next season
    I think that's harsh enough. They were taken in as they were the outstanding candidates for this year. Maybe the few added are not as good as some who entered academy in previous years but they have the
    potential and its ridiculous to say not much hope of them being around in 3 years.
    Leinster aren't rushing in. They are taken a punt as these guys have potential and are the best around

    I Disagree and stand by what I said above.


  • #986
    bilston
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,009 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    ArmchairQB wrote: »
    Have to agree a bit with Franno Fan in that it seems we took in a few players this season just to fill positions rather than being outstanding candidates. Timmins, McCarthy, Brewer & O'Loughlin are well down on standard on previous years in their positions and I wouldn't hold out much hope of them being around in 3 years.

    Why do Leinster have to take a punt on these payers? Why rush in? We should wait until there are players of really good potential available and if that means taking 2 x 9's or 2 x 13's in the same year so be it. Let hem battle it out. I will be interested how this years year 2 lads get on this season.

    The thing to remember is that players develop at different rates. An example up at Ulster is Stewart McCloskey. The Lost Sheep may know for sure but I don't think he played any age grade rugby for Ireland, certainly not 19s, now he has Ulster caps and Emerging Ireland caps under his belt.

    Unfortunately the same is true in reverse, guys who star at U20s and are nowhere to be seen within a couple of years or at least don't fulfil their potential, he still has a chance obviously but if you had told me four years ago that by 2014 Andrew Conway wouldn't be a regular Ireland international I'd have been very surprised. Hopefully one of those four you mentioned manage to exceed expectations. Obviously someone sees something in them.


  • #987
    Tox56
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    bilston wrote: »
    The thing to remember is that players develop at different rates. An example up at Ulster is Stewart McCloskey. The Lost Sheep may know for sure but I don't think he played any age grade rugby for Ireland, certainly not 19s, now he has Ulster caps and Emerging Ireland caps under his belt.

    Unfortunately the same is true in reverse, guys who star at U20s and are nowhere to be seen within a couple of years or at least don't fulfil their potential, he still has a chance obviously but if you had told me four years ago that by 2014 Andrew Conway wouldn't be a regular Ireland international I'd have been very surprised. Hopefully one of those four you mentioned manage to exceed expectations. Obviously someone sees something in them.

    I think McCloskey was more about circumstance, memory is a bit dodgy but wasn't he in the same age grade as Daly, Scannell, Farrell, Olding and Henshaw? As a centre having that sort of competition is pretty unlucky


  • #988
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    bilston wrote: »
    The thing to remember is that players develop at different rates. An example up at Ulster is Stewart McCloskey. The Lost Sheep may know for sure but I don't think he played any age grade rugby for Ireland, certainly not 19s, now he has Ulster caps and Emerging Ireland caps under his belt.

    Unfortunately the same is true in reverse, guys who star at U20s and are nowhere to be seen within a couple of years or at least don't fulfil their potential, he still has a chance obviously but if you had told me four years ago that by 2014 Andrew Conway wouldn't be a regular Ireland international I'd have been very surprised. Hopefully one of those four you mentioned manage to exceed expectations. Obviously someone sees something in them.
    McCloskey didn't play for Ireland underage as competition in 93s was so tough as Tox56 points out below. Guys starring at 20s and in terms of pro sport nowhere to be seen is an issue with just having 4 pro sides and unlike in Wales, Scotland where you can travel just over the border or fairly close by for pro rugby if you cant make it pro with the provinces you have to travel over seas...
    Tox56 wrote: »
    I think McCloskey was more about circumstance, memory is a bit dodgy but wasn't he in the same age grade as Daly, Scannell, Farrell, Olding and Henshaw? As a centre having that sort of competition is pretty unlucky
    Yeah very unlucky at age grade but got picked up in end and was lucky as plenty who don't have to go abroad to get contracts or looked at for contracts.


  • #989
    MichaelsBoy1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5 ✭MichaelsBoy1


    So Noel Reid, Luke McGrath, Cathal Marsh, Dan Leavy, Ross Molony, Rory O'Loughlin, Cian Kelleher, Nick McCarthy, Ross Byrne all recent St. Micheals graduates to make it to Leinster.

    Who is next Josh Murphy? James Ryan? Max Deegan? Adam Leavy? Charlie Cregan? David Duggan? Matthew Gilsenan?

    Impressive stuff from the Swords.. they are a model for all private schools in how they've turned themselves into such a good developer of players.

    Favourites for the senior cup next year too.


  • #990
    MichaelsBoy1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5 ✭MichaelsBoy1


    Stan27 wrote: »
    Was J. Loughman picked up???

    sub-academy for Leinster.


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  • #991
    FrannoFan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭FrannoFan


    MichaelsBoy1 wrote: »
    So Noel Reid, Luke McGrath, Cathal Marsh, Dan Leavy, Ross Molony, Rory O'Loughlin, Cian Kelleher, Nick McCarthy, Ross Byrne all recent St. Micheals graduates to make it to Leinster.

    Who is next Josh Murphy? James Ryan? Max Deegan? Adam Leavy? Charlie Cregan? David Duggan? Matthew Gilsenan?

    Impressive stuff from the Swords.. they are a model for all private schools in how they've turned themselves into such a good developer of players.

    Favourites for the senior cup next year too.

    For those listed above and playing they are doing a great job. But if you look at the side that finally broke the pattern and won a cup where are they now?are they still playing? A lot of those lads got flogged to death in school and pack it in. Michaels have a poor enough record in players staying in the game. Common in a lot of schools but not all.


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