'living wage' Ireland

mickydoomsux · 06-07-2014 03:07PM

Lads, any chance I can have a few quid for cans every week so I can feel "socially included"?

ancapailldorcha · 06-07-2014 03:19PM

Clandestine wrote: »

The government already has too big of a hand in business. There should be no minimum wage (more employment+interest rates go down) and the income tax should be scrapped (its theft). I think that'd be a good start.

I don't understand. If you remove the minimum wage, companies will pay employees barely enough to live on. And by live on, I mean rent, utilities and a few loaves a week. Nearly half of Lloyds Bank employees are on £17,000 or £14,000 a year which is less than the stipend a postgraduate student in the life science would recieve. I can't find a link for that but I read it in the Guardian.

As for removing Income Tax, who'll pay for the Gards, HSE, etc?

Iwasfrozen · 06-07-2014 03:21PM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Lads, any chance I can have a few quid for cans every week so I can feel "socially included"?

And a holiday because apparently that's a necessity...

Jesus wept. Next these geniuses will be lobbying for the min wage to be raised to 11.45.

Wanderer2010 · 06-07-2014 04:00PM

Friend Computer wrote: »

Going out/socialising/what have you are absolutely not luxuries; they're conducive to a healthy mental state. Psychological needs are just as important as physical ones.

Exactly! What good is sitting on your battered couch mentally high-fiveing yourself on buying 1kg of Aldi rice for a euro if you have nowhere to go or no money to enjoy yourself? I cant stand these people who say "Ooh you must cut down on pubs, clubs and concerts, they are luxuries". Say that to the people who work very hard all week, watch their money and look forward to some release by meeting up with their mates and having a bit of a laugh and topping up their mental health so they can face another tough week. There are so many tight people in this country it drives me mad. You dont have to be knocking back shots every night of the week or jetting of to USA twice a year but everyone needs some release so money for that is just as important as rent/food money.

Clandestine · 06-07-2014 04:17PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't understand. If you remove the minimum wage, companies will pay employees barely enough to live on. And by live on, I mean rent, utilities and a few loaves a week. Nearly half of Lloyds Bank employees are on £17,000 or £14,000 a year which is less than the stipend a postgraduate student in the life science would recieve. I can't find a link for that but I read it in the Guardian.?

http://bastiat.mises.org/2014/01/hazlitt-explains-minimum-wage-laws/

If there is no minimum wage, the costs of everyday items would drop (a drop in inflation). If companies were to pay their employees a pittance, I don't think many people would apply for the jobs because there would be more competition. Employees would essentially be paid what their labor is actually worth. Minimum wage laws stop people with little/no skills from getting jobs. e.g Switzerland has no minimum wage and has a 2.1% unemployment rate.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

As for removing Income Tax, who'll pay for the Gards, HSE, etc?

There are other options available, e.g:
Make taxes voluntary, people pay for the services they want or private companies would provide services instead.

ancapailldorcha · 06-07-2014 04:55PM

Clandestine wrote: »

http://bastiat.mises.org/2014/01/hazlitt-explains-minimum-wage-laws/

If there is no minimum wage, the costs of everyday items would drop (a drop in inflation). If companies were to pay their employees a pittance, I don't think many people would apply for the jobs because there would be more competition. Employees would essentially be paid what their labor is actually worth. Minimum wage laws stop people with little/no skills from getting jobs. e.g Switzerland has no minimum wage and has a 2.1% unemployment rate.

There are other options available, e.g:
Make taxes voluntary, people pay for the services they want or private companies would provide services instead.

The first point makes no sense. If prices on good drop, how do farmers and manufacturers make a living? People would still have to apply for these jobs as they need an income. We're in a recession meaning that in terms of jobs, supply is far outstripping demand so employers can pick anyone they want, pay a pittance and suffer no consequence.

Making taxes voluntary? Seriously? How many people do you think would choose to pay for the Gards? Virtually every time I've tried to even speak to one of them, I've been treated with contempt. Look at the UK, they've entrusted more public services to the private sector and it's a disaster. There's no incentive for investment as there's virtually no competition and the service is a guaranteed sell. We've one of the worst rail systems in Europe and don't even start me on the energy companies.

looking_around · 06-07-2014 05:01PM

RoboRat wrote: »

Economies have ups and downs, you enjoy the ups and do without during You can go camping for a week and it will cost you next to nothing.

Depends where you live.
It will cost you the petrol, the gear (Tents /sleeping bags), and places that allow camping have a nightly charge.

It does cost, and it can add up.

People have a right to be able to afford hobbies. You sound like one of those people who say "well, cancel your internet, you don't need that to live."..
and no, you don't...but if you don't have it, you'll definitely be socially excluded, look on weirdly...and why shouldn't we expect some things to live.

I want to live, not just exist.

I think a certain amount being put towards hobbies is a good thing, then let people decide how they spend that and for what hobbies. But people (working or on welfare should be able to afford a little.)
How much? I think 30-40euro per week just for hobbies is fair. If someone can't afford this working, shows more an issue with wages(and probably mortgage.) than with it being "too high" for socialising/hobbies.

Iwasfrozen · 06-07-2014 05:12PM

looking_around wrote: »

I want to live, not just exist.

Then be glad you have a job.

Sam Kade · 06-07-2014 05:14PM

Friend Computer wrote: »

Going out/socialising/what have you are absolutely not luxuries; they're conducive to a healthy mental state. Psychological needs are just as important as physical ones.

Here both involve going to the pub and downing drink, not great for mental health.

ancapailldorcha · 06-07-2014 05:15PM

Sam Kade wrote: »

Here both involve going to the pub and downing drink, not great for mental health.

There are ways to socialise without alcohol. In addition, it is possible to go to the pub and indulge without excess. I do it regularly.

Sam Kade · 06-07-2014 05:22PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

There are ways to socialise without alcohol. In addition, it is possible to go to the pub and indulge without excess. I do it regularly.

I never said there weren't in fact you could socialise without spending a cent but the pub and drink are the mindset of the majority.

looking_around · 06-07-2014 05:27PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Then be glad you have a job.

I currently don't. I'm also currently not receiving welfare.

Anyway.

The problem is many people with jobs don't have enough for hobbies.
I think it's excellent to be deciding what IS a standard of living, how much should people have. It will help with balancing other supports etc.

People should have X amount for hobbies.
X amount for food.
X amount for rent/home.
X amount for clothes.
X amount for traveling expenses.
X amount for health.

What these amounts are/should be I don't know, but defining what peoples needs are and how much they should for those needs. Is a good thing.

and yes, some money towards hobbies is a need, You don't want people so poor that they have nothing to do, or very little... which is terrible for mental health, means they're less likely to be able to get back in to work and will need more long term help from the government.

ancapailldorcha · 06-07-2014 05:29PM

Sam Kade wrote: »

I never said there weren't in fact you could socialise without spending a cent but the pub and drink are the mindset of the majority.

You said "downing drink" so that's which constitutes an assumption in my opinion.

Iwasfrozen · 06-07-2014 05:38PM

looking_around wrote: »

I currently don't. I'm also currently not receiving welfare.

Anyway.

The problem is many people with jobs don't have enough for hobbies.
I think it's excellent to be deciding what IS a standard of living, how much should people have. It will help with balancing other supports etc.

People should have X amount for hobbies.
X amount for food.
X amount for rent/home.
X amount for clothes.
X amount for traveling expenses.
X amount for health.

What these amounts are/should be I don't know, but defining what peoples needs are and how much they should for those needs. Is a good thing.

and yes, some money towards hobbies is a need, You don't want people so poor that they have nothing to do, or very little... which is terrible for mental health, means they're less likely to be able to get back in to work and will need more long term help from the government.

No the idea of social welfare is to provide a person with the bare minimum to survive. The budget doesn't stretch to booze money.

looking_around · 06-07-2014 05:47PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No the idea of social welfare is to provide a person with the bare minimum to survive. The budget doesn't stretch to booze money.

No it's not.

It's there to support a person in times of need.

We have long moved away from bare minimum to survive. Putting people on the bare to survive, has longterm negative consequences, it affects mental and physical health.

but there's no point arguing if you can't see that people need hobbies. Even cheap hobbies like knitting aren't free.

But lets not label it booze money, what about money for a weekly class? like yoga/other fitness.. This would have long term benefits by keeping people physically healthy.
Maybe 40€/week is too much.. 10 I think would be too little, maybe 20€/week as min on hobbies..would that be more fair?

ancapailldorcha · 06-07-2014 05:54PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No the idea of social welfare is to provide a person with the bare minimum to survive. The budget doesn't stretch to booze money.

Why do people seem to think that people, employed or not spend every spare cent/penny on booze? It's just ignorant.

Social welfare exists as support for people who need it. It does unfortunately, get abused as the tabloids love reminding constantly. If we limit it to nothing more than rent and food stamps then it'll just cause bigger problems. Look at Detroit, Chicago or Baltimore in the US if you don't believe me. People can be so short sighted and selfish when it comes to things like this which is sad when you consider that short term investment can lead to long term rewards. For example, investing in free IT courses for the unemployed can give them skills to work in one industry which is still highly profitable so that they can start paying tax.

Iwasfrozen · 06-07-2014 06:05PM

looking_around wrote: »

No it's not.

It's there to support a person in times of need.

We have long moved away from bare minimum to survive. Putting people on the bare to survive, has longterm negative consequences, it affects mental and physical health.

but there's no point arguing if you can't see that people need hobbies. Even cheap hobbies like knitting aren't free.

But lets not label it booze money, what about money for a weekly class? like yoga/other fitness.. This would have long term benefits by keeping people physically healthy.
Maybe 40€/week is too much.. 10 I think would be too little, maybe 20€/week as min on hobbies..would that be more fair?

Nope. It's there to provide a social security net to make sure a persons basic needs are covered. The dole as it stands is too generous.

ancapailldorcha · 06-07-2014 06:07PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Nope. It's there to provide a social security net to make sure a persons basic needs are covered. The dole as it stands is too generous.

Have you ever lived on it?

fr336 · 06-07-2014 06:09PM

So the country and people's lives should go to ruin as more and more jobs are made redundant due to computers..just so people don't call it all communist? The stupidity of the little people. I wish I was a jerk I could become a billionaire with ease.

Iwasfrozen · 06-07-2014 06:15PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Have you ever lived on it?

Yeah a few months ago actually. 100 euro for doing nothing I felt like a thief.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Why do people seem to think that people, employed or not spend every spare cent/penny on booze? It's just ignorant.

Social welfare exists as support for people who need it. It does unfortunately, get abused as the tabloids love reminding constantly. If we limit it to nothing more than rent and food stamps then it'll just cause bigger problems. Look at Detroit, Chicago or Baltimore in the US if you don't believe me. People can be so short sighted and selfish when it comes to things like this which is sad when you consider that short term investment can lead to long term rewards. For example, investing in free IT courses for the unemployed can give them skills to work in one industry which is still highly profitable so that they can start paying tax.

Oh don't get me wrong I'm very supportive of subsidised courses for the long term unemployed but they shouldn't be given any substantial amount of disposable income.

ancapailldorcha · 06-07-2014 06:16PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yeah a few months ago actually. 100 euro for doing nothing I felt like a theif.

€100 a week? Thought it was more than that.

Iwasfrozen · 06-07-2014 06:19PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

€100 a week? Thought it was more than that.

Not for those of us just out of college who hadn't worked yet. Which is fair enough, if you haven't paid anything into the system you shouldn't expect anything out of it.

Grayson · 06-07-2014 06:26PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Have you ever lived on it?

I did years ago. It was just under £60 at that stage

It's not easy to live on. I can only imagine how hard it is for parents. For a single person there's a lot of penny counting. You look at the price of everything. Every time you go shopping you're very aware of the fact that you have a budget. Every item you put in is mentally counted and you walk around with a constant running total. When you manage to budget enough that you can slip in a packet of biscuits or some other "Luxury" you feel great.

I spent money on booze. Not much though, only a couple of quid every so often. Maybe a pint and then back to a friend’s house for some very cheap cans (anyone remember dorfmister?

).
The reason was that when you're unemployed you do go insane with boredom. People might not like hearing it but social exclusion is incredibly hard. Luckily I'm earning more now but I haven't always been so lucky. I was working and I would be affected by it. You can't afford to go out at all. Even if someone asks if you want to go to the cinema you have to lie and make something up. If you tell the truth they'll just offer to buy you a ticket and that's worse. You end up sitting at home depressed and after months of it you just feel worse and worse. Poverty, wether caused by low wages or being on social welfare, generates loneliness which generates depression.

If someone on the dole buys a few cheap cans or a cheap bottle of wine and has a few drinks with some friends, I'm ok with that. The people who judge them have no idea how hard it is and all they are doing is looking down their noses at someone they want to feel better than.

Tony EH · 06-07-2014 06:54PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Not for those of us just out of college who hadn't worked yet. Which is fair enough, if you haven't paid anything into the system you shouldn't expect anything out of it.

Don't worry.

You'll pay.

Iwasfrozen · 06-07-2014 07:17PM

Tony EH wrote: »

Don't worry.

You'll pay.

No doubt.

Shakespeare's Sister · 06-07-2014 07:25PM

mariaalice wrote: »

Health insurance its debateable I am having very expensive treatment at the moment and while I would have got it from the public health system, because I have health insurance I am getting it closer to home and at time of my choosing, appointment with the consultant not with the register again at a time of my choosing. So its debatable if health insurance is a luxury.

Extremely debateable.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yeah a few months ago actually. 100 euro for doing nothing I felt like a thief.

Sure ya did. Why sign on so?

Clandestine · 06-07-2014 07:26PM

re welfare:
So people should get money for simply existing? There is no such thing as a right to housing/money for hobbies/etc. All of these things come at the expense of someone else.

Iwasfrozen · 06-07-2014 07:28PM

Magaggie wrote: »

Sure ya did. Why sign on so?

I was finished college.

Awkward Badger · 06-07-2014 07:32PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I was finished college.

If you felt like a thief collecting the money and you think its too much then you can't have actually needed it too badly. Were you living at home at the time ?

Iwasfrozen · 06-07-2014 07:41PM

Awkward Badger wrote: »

If you felt like a thief collecting the money and you think its too much then you can't have actually needed it too badly. Were you living at home at the time ?

I was't at the start but moved back when my lease ran out a few months after I finished.

Of course I didn't need 100 euro a week. I don't see why anyone my age would. My weekly grocery bill during college was 25. Transport for the week was 15 and bills were around 30 euro a month. I just ended up saving a lot of it which came in handy to pay for exams later on.

'living wage' Ireland

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