Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Notes in OP,22/7

adox · 03-07-2014 03:08PM

bangkok wrote: »

park was an experienced international who never let the team down, Rafael was already in the team, maybe pogba should have played maybe fergie didn't think he was up to it just yet, how many times has fergie let players leave and he proved to be right, just happens that pogba has excelled and probably would have played a lot more if he stayed, united did offer him a contract

Yes but the point is he played a full back and a wide man in the centre of the pitch when he ran out of options, rather than play Pogba a natural central midfielder who had been excelling in the reserves and had been in the first team squad for most of the season. Pogba should have already been knocking on the first team door when everyone was fit. Not playing him that night Im sure changed the course of Pogbas career and sure you couldnt really blame him at all.

I love Fergie but this was one of his bigger mistakes in management, along with letting Stam go and perhaps even Van Nistelrooy.

Leftist · 03-07-2014 03:09PM

zerks wrote: »

Sanchez may still be available,AS saying that Barca have offered €87 million for Suarez,Liverpool don't want Sanchez,just cash.

The cynic in me reckons Suarez will join Barca,appeal his ban and have it reduced to international games (Suarez underhanded? Surely not??:rolleyes: )

Anyhow,Sanchez or Di Maria lads?

sanchez.

I don't like di maria, he's just a better version of nani.

IrishIrish · 03-07-2014 03:10PM

zerks wrote: »

Sanchez may still be available,AS saying that Barca have offered €87 million for Suarez,Liverpool don't want Sanchez,just cash.

The cynic in me reckons Suarez will join Barca,appeal his ban and have it reduced to international games (Suarez underhanded? Surely not??:rolleyes: )

Anyhow,Sanchez or Di Maria lads?

Di Maria for me. Not much in it ages wise or ability wise but Di Maria offers a lot more defensively and can play in more of a midfield role where as Sanchez is a pure attacker. Di Maria also a lot more physical which might make it easier for him in premier league. Would have loved him before he went to Madrid.

Adamcp898 · 03-07-2014 03:13PM

zerks wrote: »

Sanchez may still be available,AS saying that Barca have offered €87 million for Suarez,Liverpool don't want Sanchez,just cash.

The cynic in me reckons Suarez will join Barca,appeal his ban and have it reduced to international games (Suarez underhanded? Surely not??:rolleyes: )

Anyhow,Sanchez or Di Maria lads?

I reckon it'll be reduced so that he returns to club football the week after the September international break. And that break coupled with the later starting Spanish season will mean he'll only miss ~3 competitive games for Barca.

If it's choice between the two, I'd lean to Di Maria personally but there wouldn't be much in it. Both great players but I'd prefer a quality CM over both any day of the week.

glued · 03-07-2014 03:15PM

Di Maria is a good player as a winger but he's proven that he's a top class player in a midfield three. With the way Liverpool tore up the league last year with the quickness a speed of their play having Di Maria in a midfield three is very possible.

He was by far their best player in the CL final so I can't imagine them letting him go.

TheDoc · 03-07-2014 03:22PM

Pro. F wrote: »

I'm not denying that transfer prices will continue to rise. I'm denying that it's anywhere near the point where you and so many people seem to think it is. And I'm not talking about mid-tier talent either, I'm talking about highly sought after talent.

Rakitic has just been sold for £17m; Andre Schurrle was sold for £19m in 2013; Shaqiri was sold for £11m in 2012; Xhaka for £8m in 2012; Ter Stegen for £10m this summer; Reus for £15m in 2012; Pjanic for £10m in 2011; Vidal for £11m in 2011; Mertesacker for £11m in 2011; Neuer for £24m in 2011; Loic Remy for £10m in 2012; de Gea for £18m in 2011; Arteta for £11m in 2011; Joao Moutinho for £22m in 2013; and it goes on and on.

If you read beyond the crazy transfers and look at the rest of the market you will see a very different picture of what represents value.

This is a really good post. When the edge cases come about, where a player that a club value and don't want to lose, end up selling for an outragous amount, it can skew perceptions on market prices.

But as pointed out, outside of the top tier of "insane" transfers, good value can be had for excellent players.

I do however think and believe that clubs use other transfers as a nearly baseline of expectation, rightly or wrongly. I think Ronaldo set the new precident for "world class" talent moving, and obviously chairman around the globe would assume that value is relevant to their star players.

Bale to Madrid further compounded that. You only need to listen to managers and chairman and how they stupidly evaluate their players. I believe last season Rodgers mentioned that if Bale went for €100m, Suarez wouldn't go for anything less. Conventialtly forgetting the massive liability his character is and should rightly impact on his evaluation, not to mention his lack of CL level football whilst playing with Liverpool.

You can frequently hear chairman spout absolute rubbish about the value of their top players.

Outside of the high profile moves, which can get excessive, I think I agree with Pro.f, that it can skew our perception, and that there is great value in the market.

The ironic thing, is that the English media, pundits and just about everyone, complain about the foreign influx and how it damages the league. Yet Pardew was pretty spot on last week outlining what exactly do people expect, when he enquired about a young English player sitting on the bench for a top 6 club, being evaluated like £18m

I think the only "mental" price rises that are genuine, are those for English players, as their pricing rarely reflects merit or experience, and is normally paying fat money on a "prospect", that rarely comes full circle.

Which is co oncidently a point of major concern for me and Shaw.

Pro. F · 03-07-2014 03:25PM

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

Of course there is value out there, especially in the likes of Rakitic (different circumstances though, because Sevilla are in massive debt and their chairman basically said everyone is for sale). But even in the space of those years you mention 2011 and this year, the money for top place in the league jumped from 60m to 100m. Teams know that they there is extra income in the league and force the buying club to use it. I was just saying that given the rise in income - it's going to be proportionate to transfers and wages.

There's no doubt that there are bargains out there but a lot of those deals mentioned can also be looked at in hindsight too. 11m for Arteta as a 29 year old midfielder was about right. Neuer and De Gea were considered a lot at the time for goalkeepers (what a daft idea that is). Ter Stegen was out of contract next summer and he rejected all new offers.

You could go through the whole list and find the reasons that each player was sold at the price he was. There will always be a reason and there will always be plenty of players who are available for good prices because of those types of reasons.

The increased revenues in the PL will make buying PL players more expensive, but there is still a virtually endless stream of talent for sale in other leagues. So it doesn't matter if one club wants to hold out for silly money for the player they're selling. Just move on to the next one.

At the end of this summer, just like every summer, there will have been another raft of good value signings moving to, within and between the Bundesliga, Seria A, EPL and the Primera.

sReq | uTeK · 03-07-2014 03:26PM

bangkok wrote: »

park was an experienced international who never let the team down, Rafael was already in the team, maybe pogba should have played maybe fergie didn't think he was up to it just yet, how many times has fergie let players leave and he proved to be right, just happens that pogba has excelled and probably would have played a lot more if he stayed, united did offer him a contract

Did your source in turin prep you on the above ?

Mikeyt086 · 03-07-2014 03:28PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

As I keep saying; if players believe UNited out of the CL is only a blip - an idea which can be convinced by the caliber of player being brought in - then being out of the CL for ONE season may not be a reason for a player to not sign for United.

Look at who City signed prior to getting into the CL - Ballotelli, Robinho, Yaya Toure amongst others. Monaco signed Rodriguez and Falcao having only just got promoted.

Players can be lured with the promise of the 'project', to be a part of the United side that gets them back into the CL, and on to win it (maybe...arf).

To say United have no chance of signing any top level player because they are out of the CL is simply wrong, imo. I'm not saying signing such a player will be easy, but it certainly is not impossible.

A rousing speech, but could you please tell me where I said that?

I said Di Maria, specifically, won't go from being one of Real's best players in Champions League win, to not playing in the competition.

The likes of Vidal, Hummels, and even Kroos are all realistic for us to pursue and tempt with the project, but there are definitely players who are now out of our reach. Alexis Sanchez is one, I firmly believe Angel Di Maria is another.

redbaron_99 wrote: »

Herrera gave up the chance of playing CL to join us. :cool:

Manchester United wear red home shirts. Another correct statement that has nothing to do with what I said.

There is a big difference between leaving a team where you just managed to qualify for the Champions League, and being a pivotal role in the side that just won the competition.

I am saying, and I re-iterate, I don't think a player would go from being a big reason for a Champions League win to not playing in it. I DID NOT SAY that we can't sign players who play in the Champions League.

TheDoc · 03-07-2014 03:30PM

adox wrote: »

Yes but the point is he played a full back and a wide man in the centre of the pitch when he ran out of options, rather than play Pogba a natural central midfielder who had been excelling in the reserves and had been in the first team squad for most of the season. Pogba should have already been knocking on the first team door when everyone was fit. Not playing him that night Im sure changed the course of Pogbas career and sure you couldnt really blame him at all.

I love Fergie but this was one of his bigger mistakes in management, along with letting Stam go and perhaps even Van Nistelrooy.

I think there is a fair bit of hindsight involved here. Pogba has developed into a really good CM, but that wasn't abundantly evident in his time with us.

PLenty of players tear up the reserve divisions and then fail in firs tteam appearances. Pogba frequently looked a bit raw and to be frank, clueless, from the few appearances that he made.

He also had a serious attitude problem, made some outlandish demands in relation to a contract, and was getting a little bit ahead of himself.

While I accept he is top quality now, look at Zaha, or even what happend at the time with Ravel Morrison. got billy big bollocks making outragous contract demands and voicing how he wanted to be playing, without showing anything to really validate that claim.

And since Morrison was shipped out, I think we can remain confident it was a good move and correct decision. No one can predict the future, and I don't think Ferguson thought Pogba wasn't going to be good, but he wasn't going to be held ransom by a kid. He's always had the mantra that no one was bigger then the club/him, and he stuck with it.

I defended Fergies decision at the time and I'd happily defend it now. If Pogba didn't value being at one of the biggest clubs in the world, and wasn't patient enough to bide his time then that's his fault. We were challenging for the title with City, and rather then bleed a youngster purely fresh to the league, game, and title hunt, he got a legend back and was quickly vindicated with his performances.

adox · 03-07-2014 03:40PM

TheDoc wrote: »

I think there is a fair bit of hindsight involved here.

There isnt. Its what I thought at the time.

TheDoc · 03-07-2014 03:43PM

adox wrote: »

There isnt. Its what I thought at the time.

Was a more general point, I think obviously it hurts most of us seeing Pogba perform at the level he is, and how we just let him go.

But I think the reasons for which were valid at the time.

bangkok · 03-07-2014 03:45PM

TheDoc wrote: »

Was a more general point, I think obviously it hurts most of us seeing Pogba perform at the level he is, and how we just let him go.

But I think the reasons for which were valid at the time.

we didn't let him go, we offered him a contract and he refused, he was a free agent, nothing utd could have done

dulux99 · 03-07-2014 03:49PM

bangkok wrote: »

we didn't let him go, we offered him a contract and he refused, he was a free agent, nothing utd could have done

If the player is to be believed, then management showing a bit more faith in him would have done alot to keep him. The incident with Rafael/Park central midfield against Blackburn seemed to piss him off quite a bit. But then again, professional footballers constantly talk brown

TheDoc · 03-07-2014 03:50PM

bangkok wrote: »

we didn't let him go, we offered him a contract and he refused, he was a free agent, nothing utd could have done

That's skewing the facts, he made somewhat outragous demands, we weren't meeting them and offered him what we thought reasonable and he said **** that and trotted off elsewhere.

If we wanted to keep him we could have easily done so.

Spazdarn · 03-07-2014 04:00PM

TheDoc wrote: »

That's skewing the facts, he made somewhat outragous demands, we weren't meeting them and offered him what we thought reasonable and he said **** that and trotted off elsewhere.

If we wanted to keep him we could have easily done so.

When Rafael got played in midfield ahead of him, there was no chance he was staying.

He asked for big money above his station at the time, but he was being underused.

lordgoat · 03-07-2014 04:25PM

TheDoc wrote: »

That's skewing the facts, he made somewhat outragous demands, we weren't meeting them and offered him what we thought reasonable and he said **** that and trotted off elsewhere.

If we wanted to keep him we could have easily done so.

ToiletFusion wrote: »

When Rafael got played in midfield ahead of him, there was no chance he was staying.

He asked for big money above his station at the time, but he was being underused.

He signed a contract on a lower salary with Juve than what united offered him.

His salary was upped after 12 months if he met certain mile stones.

So to say he left for more money is incorrect. I'm not sure how people don't get this it's been said on this thread multiple times and back up with sources so.

Sure I'd love to say he was a jumped up little **** that demanded more money and left when he didn't get it. He wanted game time, Fergie told him he wasn't getting it until he signed. He said he wasn't signing til he got assurances of game time. Got dicked around and left.

IrishIrish · 03-07-2014 04:30PM

lordgoat wrote: »

He signed a contract on a lower salary with Juve than what united offered him.

His salary was upped after 12 months if he met certain mile stones.

So to say he left for more money is incorrect. I'm not sure how people don't get this it's been said on this thread multiple times and back up with sources so.

Sure I'd love to say he was a jumped up little **** that demanded more money and left when he didn't get it. He wanted game time, Fergie told him he wasn't getting it until he signed. He said he wasn't signing til he got assurances of game time. Got dicked around and left.

I'm not saying Pogba left for money but your post is a little naive and doesn't really show anything. He would have got a large signing on fee for joining Juve so if he wanted to 'leave for money' he would have done exactly what he did. Ran his contract down, turn down an improved offer at united and sign for Juve on a lower wage with future pay rises as well as a very nice signing on bonus since no transfer fee was involved.

Quandary · 03-07-2014 04:31PM

Rio Ferdinand giving his opinion on Pogba. It seems practically everyone at the club knew how good he was which again only makes for painful reading

. He also gives his thoughts on Evra.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/28122235

lordgoat · 03-07-2014 04:42PM

IrishIrish wrote: »

I'm not saying Pogba left for money but your post is a little naive and doesn't really show anything. He would have got a large signing on fee for joining Juve so if he wanted to 'leave for money' he would have done exactly what he did. Ran his contract down, turn down an improved offer at united and sign for Juve on a lower wage with future pay rises as well as a very nice signing on bonus since no transfer fee was involved.

He would have gotten a bonus at united as well as his contract was up.

Part of the problem with this was his agent would get a bigger cut at Juve so pushed for a move. Pogba by all accounts was well looked after with the deal offered. No naivety on my part in the slightest.

Spazdarn · 03-07-2014 04:50PM

lordgoat wrote: »

He would have gotten a bonus at united as well as his contract was up.

Part of the problem with this was his agent would get a bigger cut at Juve so pushed for a move. Pogba by all accounts was well looked after with the deal offered. No naivety on my part in the slightest.

Well he might have thought if I'm going to stay on at United on the bench for the next year or two I might as well get paid.

redbaron_99 · 03-07-2014 05:24PM

Yes!!! The Pogba debate again... Maybe after this we can discuss nani! Then we can chat about Saipan.

lordgoat · 03-07-2014 05:26PM

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Well he might have thought if I'm going to stay on at United on the bench for the next year or two I might as well get paid.

He didn't. Sitting on the bench wasn't an option for him so he moved.

DARK-KNIGHT · 03-07-2014 05:27PM

JESUS EDDIE SIGN SOMEONE TO STOP ALL THIS POGBA ****ETALK

03-07-2014 05:31PM

Quandary wrote: »

Rio Ferdinand giving his opinion on Pogba. It seems practically everyone at the club new how good he was which again only makes for painful reading . He also gives his thoughts on Evra.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/28122235

Rio seems to confirm that it was that game where Fergie played anyone but Pogba in midfield as the breaking point. Hindsight is great, but damn if Pogba was showing the quality on the training pitch as is reported, he should have gotten far more minutes on-field that season than he was afforded. The same season as we apparently had no choice but to bring Paul Scholes out of retirement. No wonder Pogba felt he had no choice but to move on.

Mikeyt086 · 03-07-2014 05:37PM

I'd love to eat my words on Di Maria by the way, if he is willing to go a year without Champions League football I would have him hear in an instant, I just don't think he would be.

Rayne Wooney · 03-07-2014 06:32PM

Di Maria would be a great buy, he's top class on the wing but I know a few people who say his best position is in a 3 man midfield. He would fit in perfectly with Van Gaal's style being versatile

I have a feeling we won't bring in any attacking players until Van Gaal gets in and works with the team to see what he needs

sigmundv · 03-07-2014 06:53PM

I have no idea what kind of contract United offered Pogba, but I choose to believe that it was a sensible one in line with what other unproven youngsters are offered. Juventus offered a better contract and he joined them. There is no way Fergie could or should have guaranteed him a place in the team and I think United were right not to move heaven and earth to get him to stay.

Anyway, no point in continuing to cry over spoiled milk. At Juventus he has developed well and they have got a cracking player on their hands. Good for them. There is no guarantee that he would have developed in the same way in the Premier League. Let's move onwards and upwards instead of harking back.

Lukker- · 03-07-2014 07:02PM

sigmundv wrote: »

I have no idea what kind of contract United offered Pogba, but I choose to believe that it was a sensible one in line with what other unproven youngsters are offered. Juventus offered a better contract and he joined them. There is no way Fergie could or should have guaranteed him a place in the team and I think United were right not to move heaven and earth to get him to stay.

Anyway, no point in continuing to cry over spoiled milk. At Juventus he has developed well and they have got a cracking player on their hands. Good for them. There is no guarantee that he would have developed in the same way in the Premier League. Let's move onwards and upwards instead of harking back.

What the hell was Fergie thinking though?

The Moldy Gowl · 03-07-2014 07:03PM

Lukker- wrote: »

What the hell was Fergie thinking though?

Taking Walcott off so early

Letting Pogba off so soon

Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Notes in OP,22/7

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