PED

Da Shins Kelly · 10-06-2013 1:40pm #1

So, following on from the French Open thread, because I think it's an interesting discussion, are performance enhancing drugs an overlooked problem in tennis? I'm not really interested in pointing the finger at specific individuals or making unfounded speculation, but I think the issue itself is one worth talking about. I'm not too familiar with the regularity of drug testing or even the history of drug usage in tennis compared to other sports, but I'd be interested in hearing more about what others think of it.

Giruilla · 10-06-2013 2:05pm

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

So, following on from the French Open thread, because I think it's an interesting discussion, are performance enhancing drugs an overlooked problem in tennis? I'm not really interested in pointing the finger at specific individuals or making unfounded speculation, but I think the issue itself is one worth talking about. I'm not too familiar with the regularity of drug testing or even the history of drug usage in tennis compared to other sports, but I'd be interested in hearing more about what others think of it.

If anyone with an open mind is genuinely interested I'd recommend a good read of this blog http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.ie/

and watch this podcast http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azzhD2QJ8B0
(It's all good, but gets very interesting around the 34 min mark)

Anyone who doesn't want their idealised image of tennis to be shattered maybe best to avoid.

transylman · 10-06-2013 10:11pm

So much of what we are seeing is tennis right now was just not possible a few years ago. Players hitting their physical peaks in their 30s, hard-hitting 5 set long baseline games with neither player showing signs of fatigue, the same player going on to another 5 set game days later completely fresh.

Then, even with the leniency of the testing regime, you have all this odd behaviour from players. Hiding from testers when they come to your house. Mysterious injuries that flare up seemingly at random, only to quickly disappear with no apparent affect on the players ability.

The sport desparately needs regular random off-season blood and urine testing. If a player misses a test it needs to be made public. If a player fails a first test it needs to be made public. Test results need to be made available to the public. The system needs to be made completely transparent. Its the only way of ending the current farce.

Giruilla · 10-06-2013 10:49pm

For me after listening to Victor Conte talk about the methods and his detailed knowledge of the drugs used, testing methods and how to beat the system.. I'm under no illusions as to what is going on in tennis and so many other major sports. (Not to mention him naming tennis players individually).

Its not at the lance armstrong 5/6 years ago stage for me.. the is he - isn't he any more. My eyes are completely opened as to how it's going on, and more importantly from a philosophical/psychological point of view why it's going on. The stakes have just become too huge.. massive massive money contracts, prizes, sponsors. Its farcical to think it isn't. If you hear one players doing it at zero risk, zero chance of equal benefit to exposing cheaters as to beating them at their own game, why would you not do it. Then you look at the associations in charge shambles of drug testing systems and say to yourself.. why aren't they doing more? Well, because they have virtually zero invested interest in doing so.

By far the biggest three illusions people in love with specific sports have are these:
1) Doping and getting away with it is hard to do. - It isn't.
2) Doping has no benefits in 'skill' sports as technique is what wins you games. - To put it as simply as possible, when do you have better technique.. at the start of a game or at the end? Imagine playing the whole game like you do at the start.
3) The sports icons are heroes and honest people. - The media portrays them as this as it's in their interest to do so, and risky and costly not to. What else do you really know about them?

I've read up a lot about this subject, the history, the patterns. You look at the two winners of French Open this year and honestly can't help but laugh and at the same time be shocked that so many people don't care whats going on. Its a moral subject more than anything and important to society, especially as these people are portrayed as role models day in day out in every country in the world.

pconn062 · 10-06-2013 11:49pm

My initial suspicion in this area was aroused when two Italian female players (who I won't name but I'm sure everyone can guess) suddenly leaped up the rankings, playing the best tennis of their lives in the later years of their careers. This is highly unusual, am I saying this is down to doping? No. But should it be questioned and investigated? Absolutely.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 10-06-2013 11:59pm

pconn062 wrote: »

My initial suspicion in this area was aroused when two Italian female players (who I won't name but I'm sure everyone can guess) suddenly leaped up the rankings, playing the best tennis of their lives in the later years of their careers. This is highly unusual, am I saying this is down to doping? No. But should it be questioned and investigated? Absolutely.

One Italian player who had links to a certain doctor involved in certain other cases....

To be fair though there's a lot of inconsistency in tennis, especially in the women's game. I mean Sharapova and Williams are the only two that have been at the top of the game consistently for the past ten years. It's not that hard to believe that every now and then someone decides to be more dedicated, more professional and sees the results pay off for a while. Is it?

pconn062 · 11-06-2013 12:11am

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

One Italian player who had links to a certain doctor involved in certain other cases....

To be fair though there's a lot of inconsistency in tennis, especially in the women's game. I mean Sharapova and Williams are the only two that have been at the top of the game consistently for the past ten years. It's not that hard to believe that every now and then someone decides to be more dedicated, more professional and sees the results pay off for a while. Is it?

Nope not at all, I totally agree with you on that. Like you said in another post (I think), I think the problem lies further down the rankings. But the issue is when these players climb up the rankings and suddenly start climbing up the rankings and affecting outcomes of tournaments, possibly due to the assistance of PED's. Tennis just doesn't have the necessary checks (at the moment) in place to ease the worries of many supporters and fans of the sport.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 11-06-2013 12:18am

But then what is considered "performance enhancing".

There was a story for a while that Djokovic had one of those giant egg things that he climbed into after a match which aided his recovery. Surely putting him at an advantage over his next opponent who probably doesn't have a giant egg?

Then there's all the gels and powders they're pumping into themselves on court. Why isn't simple re hydration enough to keep them going? You never saw Pete Sampras sucking on a tube of gel mid match, makes sense that they can go for longer now that they have all that stuff.

I agree that the drug testing should be more open and transparent, ideally players would be tested after every win, like they did at the Olympics, but I don't think the fact that the sport has changed has to automatically mean everyone is on drugs.

I mean years ago tennis players didn't actually have to be that physically fit. They just hit the ball around in practice, maybe did a bit of cardio now and then. Now they're in the gym every day, they have special diets and whole teams of trainers and physios travelling with them. Which raises another point. A player way down the rankings is probably only earning enough to keep a coach with them, if even, they get one or two good results, or a sponsorship deal, or their federation decides to invest in them and all of a sudden they can maybe have a full time physio too, or a masseuse, or even buy a big giant egg. Obviously that's going to help them maintain their new found good form.

walshb · 11-06-2013 11:25am

Giruilla wrote: »

For me after listening to Victor Conte talk about the methods and his detailed knowledge of the drugs used, testing methods and how to beat the system.. I'm under no illusions as to what is going on in tennis and so many other major sports. (Not to mention him naming tennis players individually).

Its not at the lance armstrong 5/6 years ago stage for me.. the is he - isn't he any more. My eyes are completely opened as to how it's going on, and more importantly from a philosophical/psychological point of view why it's going on. The stakes have just become too huge.. massive massive money contracts, prizes, sponsors. Its farcical to think it isn't. If you hear one players doing it at zero risk, zero chance of equal benefit to exposing cheaters as to beating them at their own game, why would you not do it. Then you look at the associations in charge shambles of drug testing systems and say to yourself.. why aren't they doing more? Well, because they have virtually zero invested interest in doing so.

By far the biggest three illusions people in love with specific sports have are these:
1) Doping and getting away with it is hard to do. - It isn't.
2) Doping has no benefits in 'skill' sports as technique is what wins you games. - To put it as simply as possible, when do you have better technique.. at the start of a game or at the end? Imagine playing the whole game like you do at the start.
3) The sports icons are heroes and honest people. - The media portrays them as this as it's in their interest to do so, and risky and costly not to. What else do you really know about them?

I've read up a lot about this subject, the history, the patterns. You look at the two winners of French Open this year and honestly can't help but laugh and at the same time be shocked that so many people don't care whats going on. Its a moral subject more than anything and important to society, especially as these people are portrayed as role models day in day out in every country in the world.

I agree with a lot of what you say. But also, I do believe that what tennis players are doing today is NOT somehow beyond normal for them. So they play 5 set matches, sometimes on consecutive days. Big deal. Like I said, plenty of rest throughout the matches as well as the day's recovery. I don't believe that they need PEDs to do what they are doing. Not saying they aren't taking them, but making such definite claims regarding Nadal, as you are doing, is wrong.

And, comparing them to eras past is irrelevant. Today and recently theses players have benefitted from progression, diet, technology, professionalism. Almost any human endeavor progresses with time and knowledge and methods. They are training harder, faster, longer. Money and big money is driving this. Yes, drugs is also driving it. But it's not a necessity.

walshb · 11-06-2013 11:32am

Giruilla wrote: »

2) Doping has no benefits in 'skill' sports as technique is what wins you games. - To put it as simply as possible, when do you have better technique.. at the start of a game or at the end? Imagine playing the whole game like you do at the start.
3) The sports icons are heroes and honest people. - The media portrays them as this as it's in their interest to do so, and risky and costly not to. What else do you really know about them?
.

These two points I absolutely agree with. But, do you really think what Nadal is doing (as regards stamina) is superhuman? I don't. I think a really fit and naturally fit and talented athlete can do it without PEDs. If yo think not, then you may as well label any extremely fit person as a PED user.

Giruilla · 11-06-2013 5:04pm

walshb wrote: »

I agree with a lot of what you say. But also, I do believe that what tennis players are doing today is NOT somehow beyond normal for them. So they play 5 set matches, sometimes on consecutive days. Big deal. Like I said, plenty of rest throughout the matches as well as the day's recovery. I don't believe that they need PEDs to do what they arwe doing. Not saying they aren't taking them, but making such definite claims regarding Nadal, as you are doing, is wrong.

And, comparing them to eras past is irrelevant. Today and recently theses players have benefitted from progression, diet, technology, professionalism. Almost any human endeavor progresses with time and knowledge and methods. They are training harder, faster, longer. Money and big money is driving this. Yes, drugs is also driving it. But it's not a necessity.

Theres no doubting that improvements have been made in natural sports science and sports psychology like you say. But they will NEVER compare to the benefits than can be gained from using PED's like EPO and HGH.

I've formed an opinion on Nadal.. theres nothing 'wrong' about it. His prolonged absenses, mysterious injuries, and incredible fitness and stamina immediately after these absences and injuries are factors that make me fall down on one side of suspicion. Also his nationality (sorry) - Spain is pretty much seen as the doping capital of the world these days.

Then theres this years womens champion - age 31. She ran to her panic room and locked herself inside when the drugs testers called around...

Giruilla · 11-06-2013 5:05pm

walshb wrote: »

But, do you really think what Nadal is doing (as regards stamina) is superhuman? I don't. I think a really fit and naturally fit and talented athlete can do it without PEDs.

Thats irrelevant and wholly comes down to beliefs.

walshb · 11-06-2013 8:03pm

Giruilla wrote: »

Also his nationality (sorry) - Spain is pretty much seen as the doping capital of the world these days.
..

Well, Ireland is seen by many as a nation of drunks. Should we all be labeled as drunks? For me the nationality reason you cite is poor form.

I just can't see anything from Nadal that is so special that would have me believe that it "must" be down to PEDs.

garv123 · 11-06-2013 9:37pm

There are much more physically demanding sports out there than tennis. people can train hard and get physically fit enough for tough matches without PED's

The stats below are interesting as to how much time the ball is actually in play in a 3 hour 18 minute game of tennis. Players in tennis get plenty of breaks and time to catch their breath between serves.

Tennis vs. Badminton

Statistics don't lie. The speed and the stamina required for badminton are far greater than for any other racket sport. At the 1985 All England (Tennis) Championships, Boris Becker defeated Kevin Curren 6-3, 6-7, 7-6, 6-4. At the 1985 World Badminton Championships in Calgary, Canada, Han Jian of China defeated Morten Frost of Denmark, 14-18, 15-10, 15-8. The following is a statistical comparison of those matches.

Tennis

Badminton
Time:

3 hrs & 18 mins

1 hr & 16 mins
Ball/Shuttle in Play:

18 mins

37 mins
Match Intensity*:

-9 percent

48 percent
Rallies:

299

146
Shots:

1,004

1,972
Shots Per Rally:----

3.4

13.5
Distance Covered:

2 miles

4 miles
* The actual time the ball/shuttle was in flight, divided by the length of the match.
Note that the badminton players competed for half the time, yet ran twice as far and hit nearly twice as many shots.

A soccer player travels 7 to 9 miles in a game.
A rugby player is about 6 or so and they're getting thumped and belted and the wind knocked out of them.. Are they all using PED to keep going?

Giruilla · 12-06-2013 9:58am

walshb wrote: »

Well, Ireland is seen by many as a nation of drunks. Should we all be labeled as drunks? For me the nationality reason you cite is poor form.

Cringe... not that that statement really warrants a response but how about a recent spanish courts decision to destroy blood bags of doctor fuentes, who also said he would name all athletes who he worked with and identify the bags - which he claimed to have included tennis stars and football stars.
How about doping not even being illegal in Spain until as recently as 2006?
How about Spains recent domination in other sports such as football, where the national team and barcelona are playing football like 'track and field athletes'?
How about lance armstrongs decision to move his team from Nice to Girona Spain?
Its for reasons like these and numerous others why Spain is seen as a 'doping free-for-all' and why seemingly super stamina super strength Spanish athletes like Nadal are currently under the spotlight.

walshb wrote: »

I just can't see anything from Nadal that is so special that would have me believe that it "must" be down to PEDs.

OK.

Giruilla · 12-06-2013 10:14am

Giruilla wrote: »

2) Doping has no benefits in 'skill' sports as technique is what wins you games. - To put it as simply as possible, when do you have better technique.. at the start of a game or at the end? Imagine playing the whole game like you do at the start.

walshb wrote: »

These two points I absolutely agree with.

Nadal yesterday "I don't think doping in tennis makes much sense."
http://www.marca.com/2013/06/11/en/more_sports/1370937029.html

walshb · 12-06-2013 3:25pm

Giruilla wrote: »

Nadal yesterday "I don't think doping in tennis makes much sense."
http://www.marca.com/2013/06/11/en/more_sports/1370937029.html

See, he can't be doping if he's saying stuff like this.:P

transylman · 26-06-2013 12:34am

If you are wondering how someone can go from dominating in and winning a tournament, to getting knocked out in the first round two weeks later, you might find what Victor Conte has to say at 58:40 something to consider.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azzhD2QJ8B0

Giruilla · 26-06-2013 10:00am

transylman wrote: »

If you are wondering how someone can go from dominating in and winning a tournament, to getting knocked out in the first round two weeks later, you might find what Victor Conte has to say at 58:40 something to consider.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azzhD2QJ8B0

Not coming off the juice quick enough? Hitting a down period the weeks directly after peaking from a regime? Not having enough 'out of tournament' time to juice up?

mikemcdeedy100 · 27-06-2013 12:50am

of course tennis has a big problem

testing is lax

and the top players have the $$$ and contacts for good programs

garv123 · 27-06-2013 7:40am

All those new people beating all these lads that are all meant to be using PED must be using better stuff

Giruilla · 01-07-2013 12:32pm

Great article about Nadal by who seems to have a respectable opinion on tennis - Director of Tennis Operations at all Mayfair clubs, tennis journalist.

Well, there are just as many Nadal rumours out there. I sat in a locker room a few years back and listened to three coaches discussing the steroids that Nadal was taking. One of the coaches, who was from Columbia, said he saw Nadal ingesting some sort of PEDs prior to a workout session in Monte Carlo. I know this is all hearsay, but enough people in the know have come forward to say they’ve seen it – I believe this will all come out one day – just like it did for Lance Armstrong.

Remember Martina Hingis and her accelerated retirement? This was sped up in order to protect her illustrious character as one of the game’s greatest players of all time because rumours persisted she was caught using drugs. A ban for a month or two for drug use would have ruined the legacy of this superstar athlete and all of her monumental accomplishments. The WTA tour couldn’t afford this stain on its reputation when the tour’s popularity was at an all-time low. So the two sides came to an agreement – an early retirement was the only option. Any other decision could have been catastrophic.

Why do you think Nadal skipped last year’s Olympics? Do you really believe it was due to his bum knee? I don’t!
The Olympics have the most stringent testing procedures known to man. Nadal, and his surrounding team made a wise decision to take the high road prior to this global event. They knew they couldn’t mask the PED’s in London with so much visibility during the Olympics. They realized they can beat an ATP sanctioned event but not an ITF sanctioned event where the testing is quadrupled. Rafa, like Lance, has beaten many tests. But he knew it was just a matter of time, if he put himself out there in front of the drug hounds at the Olympic Games, that he’d be caught.

Nadal’s frame, prior to the layoff, was massive. Now he looks half the size. When he came back to the tour for his first event in south America in February I did not recognize him. What can be the answer for such a drastic reduction in muscle mass? The simple answer is Performance Enhancing Drugs. Nadal was on them, and now he’s not.

Finally, and maybe most interestingly, is Nadal’s habit of performing brilliantly in the slams and 1000 level events worldwide, and taking time off between these events in order to rest. Rather than struggle through these lesser events, he chooses not to play. Having regular gaps (nobody does this better than Nadal) from major to major is often seen as an indicator of an athlete following a specific cycle in the use of certain stimulants.

http://oncourt.ca/?p=6329

Nice to see someone from the tennis world having the guts to talk openly about this.

Halloween Jack · 04-07-2013 1:44pm

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/23152605

Anybody who thinks those numbers stack up needs their head examined. 60 odd out of competition blood tests against cyclings 3000, and people wonder why cyclists keep getting caught?

If you saw the same amount of testing that's done in cycling or athletics in football or tennis you'd catch a lot more cheats. These supposed clean sports have just designed completely beatable systems.

Tommy_Pickles · 04-07-2013 2:56pm

It crossed my mind that Nadal and Djockovic could possibly used them.

Djockovic was 3rd best for so long, didn't think he'd be great. But then all of a sudden he became an animal. Could be just down to training but you never know.

Nadal then, amazing player. But he has faltered? PED can lead to burnout, which could look like Nadal!

Might be interesting to see if Djockovic burns out too.

Giruilla · 03-07-2014 10:58am

The mystery and suspicions deepen further with Serena

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/tennis/article-2678542/Mystery-Serena-Williams-Wimbledon-meltdown-deepens.html

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 03-07-2014 12:43pm

Not sure why this is in the PED thread rather than the Wimbledon thread. The Daily Mail are a joke of a paper and are very clearly putting 2 and 2 together and making 7.

Giruilla · 03-07-2014 12:52pm

I don't see them clearly putting any definitive statement to what they believe in that article.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 03-07-2014 1:00pm

Giruilla wrote: »

I don't see them clearly putting any definitive statement to what they believe in that article.

Then why did you put in in here? Are you putting 2 and 2 together and getting 7?

Giruilla · 03-07-2014 1:26pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Then why did you put in in here? Are you putting 2 and 2 together and getting 7?

Because it references her missing a drugs test by hiding in a panic room as an example of her previous mysterious behavior.
Now she's on court looking completely out of it.

What do you mean by getting 7?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 03-07-2014 1:32pm

Adding 2 and 2 and getting anything other than 4.

Halloween Jack · 03-07-2014 1:33pm

Giruilla wrote: »

Because it references her missing a drugs test by hiding in a panic room as an example of her previous mysterious behavior.
Now she's on court looking completely out of it.

What do you mean by getting 7?

Don't know how she escaped a ban for that. Whatever story she concocted is meaningless as at the end of the day no sample was collected.

Miss a test and you are guilty of a doping control violation, much like the Serbian bloke last year who's name escapes me.

Giruilla · 03-07-2014 2:01pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Adding 2 and 2 and getting anything other than 4.

I see no reference to counting numbers in that article so I'm still unsure what you mean.

Giruilla · 03-07-2014 2:09pm

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Don't know how she escaped a ban for that. Whatever story she concocted is meaningless as at the end of the day no sample was collected.

Miss a test and you are guilty of a doping control violation, much like the Serbian bloke last year who's name escapes me.

Troicki? Tennis is full of very mysterious behavior. Bartoli retiring after winning wimbledon is another. Shades of Hingis..

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 03-07-2014 2:13pm

Giruilla wrote: »

I see no reference to counting numbers in that article so I'm still unsure what you mean.

Are you winding me up or have you genuinely never heard the expression before?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 03-07-2014 2:14pm

Giruilla wrote: »

Troicki? Tennis is full of very mysterious behavior. Bartoli retiring after winning wimbledon is another. Shades of Hingis..

Murray was tested right after Wimbledon last year, like literally right after the match so I assume Bartoli was too.

Giruilla · 03-07-2014 2:16pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Murray was tested right after Wimbledon last year, like literally right after the match so I assume Bartoli was too.

Exactly. Hingis served a silent doping ban.. apparently given the choice to retire or serve the ban in public and come back.

Giruilla · 03-07-2014 2:18pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Are you winding me up or have you genuinely never heard the expression before?

I asked what you meant by the dailymail coming up with 7. That article makes no conclusive statements, so I'm unsure what you are criticizing them for saying?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 03-07-2014 2:22pm

Giruilla wrote: »

I asked what you meant by the dailymail coming up with 7. That article makes no conclusive statements, so I'm unsure what you are criticizing them for saying?

The article takes two separate incidents and put them together to hint at whatever it is they're hinting at. If they're not hinting at doping then you must be the one putting two and two together because you chose to post this in the PED thread rather than the ongoing Wimbledon thread where it actually would have been relevant.

RosyLily · 03-07-2014 2:25pm

Giruilla wrote: »

I see no reference to counting numbers in that article so I'm still unsure what you mean.

It means trying to make the Serena story fit into the doping frame.

Serena looked awful on court + past incident with drugs tester = must be a doping thing? Nah, Daily Mail are just looking to add more spice to the story.

Anyway, these doping allegations seem to pop up regularly nowadays. Mostly circumstantial, which can do damage to someone's reputation.

Once I see solid proof that Player X or Z has doped then I'll believe it.

Giruilla · 03-07-2014 2:29pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

The article takes two separate incidents and put them together to hint at whatever it is they're hinting at. If they're not hinting at doping then you must be the one putting two and two together because you chose to post this in the PED thread rather than the ongoing Wimbledon thread where it actually would have been relevant.

If you think they're hinting at doping that's entirely you coming up with the conclusion. The article is about her strange unexplained behavior.

I'm shocked that people would actually wolf down tripe that explains her behavior to be from a 'virus'.

Giruilla · 03-07-2014 2:39pm

RosyLily wrote: »

Anyway, these doping allegations seem to pop up regularly nowadays. Mostly circumstantial, which can do damage to someone's reputation.

Do you see Serena Williams skipping a drugs test as circumstantial?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 03-07-2014 2:41pm

Giruilla wrote: »

If you think they're hinting at doping that's entirely you coming up with the conclusion. The article is about her strange unexplained behavior.

I'm shocked that people would actually wolf down tripe that explains her behavior to be from a 'virus'.

I came to the conclusion it was about doping because the link is in the thread about doping where you put it.

RosyLily · 03-07-2014 2:45pm

Giruilla wrote: »

Do you see Serena Williams skipping a drugs test as circumstantial?

Wasn't referring to Serena, just in general.

Giruilla · 03-07-2014 2:48pm

RosyLily wrote: »

Wasn't referring to Serena, just in general.

I never said you were, I was merely asking the question.

RosyLily · 03-07-2014 2:56pm

TBH, I never heard that story until you mentioned it.

Halloween Jack · 03-07-2014 4:34pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Murray was tested right after Wimbledon last year, like literally right after the match so I assume Bartoli was too.

Hence the snap retirement. She fails and between the ITF and her they decide they can't publicise the fact the ladies champ was caught cheating, do they force her to retire. That's how the theory would go.

Whether the evidence is circumstantial or not there are far too many parallels with what's happening in tennis now with what happened in other sports in the past. Armstrong tested positive at least twice during his cycling career yet this was kept hushed up by the sports governing body, it would be ludicrous to suggest the same couldn't happen in tennis or any other high profile sport.

If there was proper Olympic style testing, with the same rigour as cycling or athletics in tennis they'd catch more cheats.

Problem is catching the cheats is not really in any of the major interests in the sport's interests. That's why they chronically under fund the testing program even when prize money is increasing hand over fist

Da Shins Kelly · 03-07-2014 6:03pm

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Hence the snap retirement. She fails and between the ITF and her they decide they can't publicise the fact the ladies champ was caught cheating, do they force her to retire. That's how the theory would go.

Whether the evidence is circumstantial or not there are far too many parallels with what's happening in tennis now with what happened in other sports in the past. Armstrong tested positive at least twice during his cycling career yet this was kept hushed up by the sports governing body, it would be ludicrous to suggest the same couldn't happen in tennis or any other high profile sport.

If there was proper Olympic style testing, with the same rigour as cycling or athletics in tennis they'd catch more cheats.

Problem is catching the cheats is not really in any of the major interests in the sport's interests. That's why they chronically under fund the testing program even when prize money is increasing hand over fist

I'm fairly sure that even if someone tests positive in a drugs test, they don't just go public with it immediately. There has to be an investigation into it. There's a whole process that has to be followed through on before names are released to the public, which is probably why it took so long to take down Lance Armstrong. There has to be a solid basis for accusing someone of knowingly taking PEDs. You can't just start naming and shaming people on the basis of a positive test, much less conjecture. I mean, John McEnroe claims that he was unwittingly taking steroids for a time during his career, and Andre Agassi tested positive for meth. Given the drugs tend to be way ahead of the testing, there probably has to be proof that someone is taking something knowing that it will give them an edge they wouldn't normally have.

It's all kinda complicated.

Halloween Jack · 03-07-2014 6:40pm

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

I'm fairly sure that even if someone tests positive in a drugs test, they don't just go public with it immediately. There has to be an investigation into it. There's a whole process that has to be followed through on before names are released to the public, which is probably why it took so long to take down Lance Armstrong. There has to be a solid basis for accusing someone of knowingly taking PEDs. You can't just start naming and shaming people on the basis of a positive test, much less conjecture. I mean, John McEnroe claims that he was unwittingly taking steroids for a time during his career, and Andre Agassi tested positive for meth. Given the drugs tend to be way ahead of the testing, there probably has to be proof that someone is taking something knowing that it will give them an edge they wouldn't normally have.

It's all kinda complicated.

It's the complete lack of transparency that allows this kind of thing to go on.

People fAil tests all the time and the fact is pupil used pretty quickly.

The reason it took so long to take down Armstrong was because him and the uci were in cahoots and he had the legal and financial muscle to silence critics. Like he was granted an exemption for banned substance after he tested positive for it in one instance.

As for whether people knowingly dope or not the onus is very much on them to ensure there aren't banned substances in their systems. Every single failed test I can recall comes with some sort of flimsy excuse, normally that they unwittingly took something.

Look at the World Cup. There hadn't been a positive test since 1994. Yet every major athletics championship sees loads of high profile busts. It would be ludicrous to suggest that individuals in football wouldn't cheat, given the size of the rewards for doing so.

The fact is, when it comes to doping, neither the authorities nor the public at large really care about rooting out this scourge.

Da Shins Kelly · 03-07-2014 11:26pm

Halloween Jack wrote: »

It's the complete lack of transparency that allows this kind of thing to go on.

People fAil tests all the time and the fact is pupil used pretty quickly.

The reason it took so long to take down Armstrong was because him and the uci were in cahoots and he had the legal and financial muscle to silence critics. Like he was granted an exemption for banned substance after he tested positive for it in one instance.

As for whether people knowingly dope or not the onus is very much on them to ensure there aren't banned substances in their systems. Every single failed test I can recall comes with some sort of flimsy excuse, normally that they unwittingly took something.

Look at the World Cup. There hadn't been a positive test since 1994. Yet every major athletics championship sees loads of high profile busts. It would be ludicrous to suggest that individuals in football wouldn't cheat, given the size of the rewards for doing so.

The fact is, when it comes to doping, neither the authorities nor the public at large really care about rooting out this scourge.

Actually a number of players on the Mexico team tested positive for a banned substance not all that long ago. Turned out they'd eaten contaminated meat and the charges were dropped. The accusation all but destroyed the prospects of the goalkeeper, who has now gone on to become one of the stars of the tournament and is probably finally going to get that coveted move to a top European club. I don't think there would have been any great rush in FIFA to protect virtual unknowns from Mexico and the accusation was enough to do the damage to their careers as they were just beginning.

I'm sure there is some element if turning a blind eye to the stars of certain sports, but I also think there are plenty of legalities surrounding it too. It's pretty dangerous to accuse people of something and potentially destroy careers only to find out there's been an honest mistake. Stuff like this needs to be investigated properly.

Giruilla · 04-07-2014 9:12am

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

Actually a number of players on the Mexico team tested positive for a banned substance not all that long ago. Turned out they'd eaten contaminated meat and the charges were dropped.

The same old excuse. You get caught for doping, all you do is look for a product that contains potential traces of what you got caught taking. Didn't Tyler Hamilton explain this is what they do, and I've read that from numerous other sources.

Mexico keeping good company with the cyclists here:

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=5632256

Tour de France champion Alberto Contador's claim that the steak he ate is to blame for his positive doping test is plausible, experts say, since the drug he's accused of taking is sometimes illegally given to beef cattle.

http://www.canada.com/sports/Cyclist+Michael+Rogers+cleared+after+doping+case+blamed+contaminated+meat/9766683/story.html

Former world time trial champion Michael Rogers can race again after cycling’s governing body accepted that meat he ate in China likely caused his positive doping test.

How convenient they fail drugs tests and all blame it on 'contaminated meat'. So what.. you can juice to the gills and blame it on meat if you get caught?!

Football:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/8299496.stm

Juventus defender Fabio Cannavaro has criticised the media after he was cleared of doping by the Italian Olympic Committee (Coni).
The Italy skipper, 36, took a medicine containing banned substance cortisone after a wasp sting on 28 August and failed a dope test two days later.

He fails a drugs test - which they probably take about once a year in football - and blames it on a medicine. How unlucky was he to get stung by a wasp and fail a drugs test two days later! How are people so gullible to swallow this.

Golf:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/golf/22362070

Vijay Singh has been cleared of doping by the PGA Tour despite admitting using a banned substance.
Fiji's former world number one told US magazine Sports Illustrated he used deer antler spray, which contains small amounts of growth hormone.

Ha its pathetic..

That was off the top of my head.. if you want to read more
http://www.topendsports.com/medicine/doping-excuses.htm

walshb · 04-07-2014 9:46am

The red herrings that come out to excuse doping....:(

Carl Lewis was found to have ingested a banned substance from a cold remedy. The levels were so very very low that the ingestion was not at all a PED. I do believe that he was a genuine clean athlete. That same substance is NOT on the banned list today.

I would say most red herrings are bogus, but there has to be some clean athletes and honest athletes who get caught out due to circumstances that were out of their control. An yes, I realize that is their sole responsibility to make sure their bodies are free from banned substances, but athletes these days place a lot of trust in many people. I would say it's quite tough for honest and law abiding athletes to make sure that they stay drug free.

PED

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