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The top 1% and the one to twelve ratio...

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Comments

  • #32
    GarIT
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    folan wrote: »
    1) its loads
    2) thanks for paying 58% tax


    1) only if said qualifications/knowledge in the field yields really good results. Results are what matter.


    by who?

    I assume you are being sarcastic, but when you add base tax, prsi and USC it all adds up.

    Yeah results are probably what matter but your wage is usually decided before you start working.

    By not being able to earn a fair wage for my work. I'm not going to stick around here when I could earn double in the states or in Germany.


  • #33
    GarIT
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    kiffer wrote: »
    Forced!
    poor you only earning a measly 100k after tax, it's not like that's 3 times the median household income...

    What's the problem if someone studies for 10 year, consistently gets perfect results, has an amazing degree do they not deserve to get paid a wage relative to their effort?


  • #34
    kiffer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭kiffer


    GarIT wrote: »
    What's the problem if someone studies for 10 year, consistently gets perfect results, has an amazing degree do they not deserve to get paid a wage relative to their effort?

    Do you feel you put more than 12 times the effort in than a normal person?
    Or should effort be rewarded exponentially?
    Of course people should be rewarded for their efforts.


  • #35
    Buzz Killington the third
    Closed Accounts Posts: 937 ✭✭✭Buzz Killington the third


    GarIT wrote: »
    What's the problem if someone studies for 10 year, consistently gets perfect results, has an amazing degree do they not deserve to get paid a wage relative to their effort?

    You do realise that there are thousands of people every year that finish long degree courses that still enter industries with low wages, don't you? Do you think a degree deserves an extortionate salary? Because I don't, I believe you get paid based on your work, not a bit of paper from college.


  • #36
    Frynge
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Frynge


    GarIT wrote: »
    What's the problem if someone studies for 10 year, consistently gets perfect results, has an amazing degree do they not deserve to get paid a wage relative to their effort?

    I bought a brand new car last year that was not cheap. Lots of people bitched and moaned about how it wasn't fair that I was able to buy such a car at my age. These people all had one thing in common. They all completely ignored how much I work and the proven results I have gotten in work.

    Yes you do deserve to get paid a very good wage considering the amount of effort you have put in but unfortunately the is a very vocal minority who think differently.


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  • #37
    KahBoom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭KahBoom


    Well the logic for this is simple - given the article/study I posted earlier, showing higher paid CEO's are generally the worst performers, then by capping the highest wages we can either 1: make companies perform better, and/or 2: stop rewarding people excessively, when they aren't doing a better job.

    We can pick a cap, of 12x or even 20x the lowest wage, and it will still be a huge amount of money.


  • #38
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Celly Smunt wrote: »
    No.You pay the best to get the best.


    The less meddling by governments in the private sector the better.

    There's actually research to show the opposite, CEO's receiving silly money often drops profits for companies


  • #39
    folan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭folan


    GarIT wrote: »
    I assume you are being sarcastic, but when you add base tax, prsi and USC it all adds up.

    i understand how tax works, yes. Do you?
    GarIT wrote: »
    Yeah results are probably what matter but your wage is usually decided before you start working.
    only your initial wage. theres things like 6 month probation periods, yearly performance reviews etc.
    GarIT wrote: »
    By not being able to earn a fair wage for my work. I'm not going to stick around here when I could earn double in the states or in Germany.
    no one except you is "forcing" you to leave. you've decided what a fair wage is.


  • #40
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    KahBoom wrote: »
    Well the logic for this is simple - given the article/study I posted earlier, showing higher paid CEO's are generally the worst performers, then by capping the highest wages we can either 1: make companies perform better, and/or 2: stop rewarding people excessively, when they aren't doing a better job.

    We can pick a cap, of 12x or even 20x the lowest wage, and it will still be a huge amount of money.

    You forgot 3...

    3: Disencentivise people from attempting to climb the ladder


  • #41
    KahBoom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭KahBoom


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    You forgot 3...

    3: Disencentivise people from attempting to climb the ladder
    Proof?


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  • #42
    folan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭folan


    GarIT wrote: »
    What's the problem if someone studies for 10 year, consistently gets perfect results, has an amazing degree do they not deserve to get paid a wage relative to their effort?

    theve gotten their degree, thats their reward.

    if, and only if, they can turn all that into actual results, then they will get paid a wage to reflect that. If their currently not being paid well enough to reflect that, they can move to the states or germany, where i am told you can be paid twice as much.


  • #43
    KahBoom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭KahBoom


    folan wrote: »
    no one except you is "forcing" you to leave. you've decided what a fair wage is.
    Yea if anything, going by the studies it will force away the worst performing CEO's demanding excessive pay, so will be good for the companies :pac:


  • #44
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    KahBoom wrote: »
    Proof?

    Why is proof required? Reduce the wage for a important high risk job and people will be less incline to take it as it's no longer worth the hassle.


  • #45
    kiffer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭kiffer


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    You forgot 3...

    3: Disencentivise people from attempting to climb the ladder

    Yeah, because loads more money, more status and the satisfaction of victory isn't enough to encourage people to excel, sure if you couldn't be a millionaire you'd be a hobo.


  • #46
    KahBoom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭KahBoom


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    Why is proof required? Reduce the wage for a important high risk job and people will be less incline to take it as it's no longer worth the hassle.
    Because if you make a claim - that people will be disincentivized from climbing the ladder - you need to back it with proof, not with superficial reasoning.


  • #47
    kiffer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭kiffer


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    Why is proof required? Reduce the wage for a important high risk job and people will be less incline to take it as it's no longer worth the hassle.

    High risk job eh? Fight tigers in those civil service jobs now?
    Garda on the street gets half a million a year does he?
    No, the guy in an office pushing a pen around at zero personal risk gets the big money.


  • #48
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    GarIT wrote: »

    By not being able to earn a fair wage for my work. I'm not going to stick around here when I could earn double in the states or in Germany.

    So Long, Farewell, Auf Weiderschen, Adieu


  • #49
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    KahBoom wrote: »
    Because if you make a claim - that people will be disincentivized from climbing the ladder - you need to back it with proof, not with superficial reasoning.

    If you reduce the wage increases going up the ladder it will clearly disincentivise people to climb the ladder. Many would just decide they are happy at the level they are at, and that the extra responsibility the next level brings isn't worth the money being offered. There's no need to be stubborn enough to try and deny this obvious scenario, you can still fit it around your argument.

    The reason I chose my current job is due to the opportunity to earn an exceptional salary 10/15 years down the line. Take that opportunity away from me and I'm not going to bother trying to stand out and just relax back into the pack, or even change career.


  • #50
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    kiffer wrote: »
    High risk job eh? Fight tigers in those civil service jobs now?
    Garda on the street gets half a million a year does he?
    No, the guy in an office pushing a pen around at zero personal risk gets the big money.

    Instead of being such a begrudger, why don't you become "the guy in an office pushing a pen around", you know, since its so easy?


  • #51
    KahBoom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭KahBoom


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    If you reduce the wage increases going up the ladder it will clearly disincentivise people to climb the ladder. Many would just decide they are happy at the level they are at, and that the extra responsibility the next level brings isn't worth the money being offered. There's no need to be stubborn enough to try and deny this obvious scenario, you can still fit it around your argument.

    The reason I chose my current job is due to the opportunity to earn an exceptional salary 10/15 years down the line. Take that opportunity away from me and I'm not going to bother trying to stand out and just relax back into the pack, or even change career.
    "clearly", "many", "obvious" - weasel words mixed with superficial reasoning and unbacked claims, along with trying to generalize your personal anecdote to everybody.

    Provide a study, evidence - something a bit more substantive - prove it. You haven't shown it would cause any kind of a problem.


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  • #52
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    There are 2 main types of people:

    1. The person that looks at the person at the top earning a mass amount of money and thinking to himself, "I'm going to work my best to be up there some day"

    2. The person that looks at the person at the top earning a mass amount of money and thinking to himself, "What a bastard, he should be brought closer down to my menial level"

    3. the poor slob who believes that working his best for the 1% will actually get him to where 1% are.

    Membership of the 1% is rarely achieved by working your best horse


  • #53
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    KahBoom wrote: »
    "clearly", "many", "obvious" - weasel words mixed with superficial reasoning and unbacked claims, along with trying to generalize your personal anecdote to everybody.

    Provide a study, evidence - something a bit more substantive - prove it. You haven't shown it would cause any kind of a problem.

    If everybody earned the same amount of money, say everybody was given 30k regardless of the job they did, do you think people would bother doing a highly responsible job or would they stick with the easy job?

    Pushing down the wage of the high earners will only 'squeeze the accordion' down the line and reduce wage increases to negligible amounts.

    Come on now... there's no "study" or "evidence" required for this.


  • #54
    kiffer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭kiffer


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    Instead of being such a begrudger, why don't you become "the guy in an office pushing a pen around", you know, since its so easy?

    I never said it was easy, I never said they shouldnt be paid more than others.
    I'm certainly not a begrudger, anymore than you are a "fatcat apologist".
    No, what I did was say they haven't put in 12 times the work or effort of some poor chap who takes real risks.
    Risking life and limb and doesn't end up getting paid so well.
    How are we measuring effort anyway?
    by how much money they manage to earn?
    by how bone tired they are at the end of the day?


  • #55
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    Bambi wrote: »
    3. the poor slob who believes that working his best for the 1% will actually get him to where 1% are.

    Membership of the 1% is rarely achieved by working your best horse

    Working your best isn't the only thing you need to do. You need to work your best in the correct area. And getting into the correct area requires working your best at school. Chain reaction.


  • #56
    Buzz Killington the third
    Closed Accounts Posts: 937 ✭✭✭Buzz Killington the third


    kiffer wrote: »
    No, what I did was say they haven't put in 12 times the work or effort of some poor chap who takes real risks.
    Risking life and limb and doesn't end up getting paid so well.

    Jesus, do administrators do this now?


  • #57
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    kiffer wrote: »
    I never said it was easy, I never said they shouldnt be paid more than others.
    I'm certainly not a begrudger, anymore than you are a "fatcat apologist".
    No, what I did was say they haven't put in 12 times the work or effort of some poor chap who takes real risks.
    Risking life and limb and doesn't end up getting paid so well.
    How are we measuring effort anyway?
    by how much money they manage to earn?
    by how bone tired they are at the end of the day?

    Ah, the 'footballers wages for soldiers' argument.

    This is a good read:

    http://supportersnotcustomers.com/2013/09/08/soldiers-should-get-footballers-wages/


  • #58
    Tiddlypeeps
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,103 ✭✭✭Tiddlypeeps


    In a country with a very reasonable level of income inequality I think this move would be a tad pointless.

    I hate the way american culture has seeped so far into this country that most people think we actually face the same economic challenges that they do. To the point that politicians are considering legislating to solve these non-existent issues.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality


  • #59
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,213 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    lennyloulou wrote: »
    why should this be applied to public/civil service?
    what about a highly qualified person who has studied here for 4-6 yrs, studied abroad for 5 yrs and conducted research? They are top of their field and happen to work for public sector??? Are they not entitled to their just wage?
    You have got to be joking!!!!!
    A ridiculous thread!

    Have they worked 12 times harder than the average person?

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • #60
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    Tiddlypeeps wrote: »
    In a country with a very reasonable level of income inequality I think this move would be a tad pointless.

    I hate the way american culture has seeped so far into this country that most people think we actually face the same economic challenges that they do. To the point that politicians are considering legislating to solve these non-existent issues.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality

    People that think income inequality is a problem in Ireland have been watching too much tv.

    That link shows that the average income of the top 10% is less than 10 times the income of the bottom 10%, which means it is actually less than the 1/12 ratio being referred to in this thread.


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  • #61
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Have they worked 12 times harder than the average person?

    Why doesn't the "average person" just go for the higher paying job instead of whining about the person that does go for it?


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