Losing / Gaining Shots : The mental side of things

GreeBo · 02-07-2014 08:39PM

benny79 wrote: »

@ greebo I hardly ever get birdies mate, would have 3-5 pars a round obviously a few doubles and scratches.
if I play to bogey id be worst tried it before I just have to keep out the hollywood shots and take my punishment!

On a serious note would love to play a round with yourself to learn some tips dont see why I shouldnt play to par when I have easly parred all the rest of the holes!

take last sunday first time I joined the 2's club was on the green for 1 for all them except the first (3rd hole). and parred the rest. never done that before as the par 3's are all stuff on my home course! its a messed up game:)

Happy to get a game in mate.

I reckon your pars are causing your double and scratches.

You will still par holes playing for bogeys. However you will have less chance of scratches though.

GreeBo · 02-07-2014 08:41PM

Barnaboy wrote: »

We all know how the mental side is so important. I have improved a lot with my concentration but I know I still have a good bit to go. Too often I find myself hitting shots when I'm not 100% comfortable over the ball with the inevitable result. Stopping yourself and walking away is so hard to do and your conscious that doing it too often then you are a slow player, like it or not.

Played with CharlieIRL last week and started with an awful high hook with the driver off the first tee. This was after a very poor performance with the driver a few days before so I decided immediately to abandon the driver for the rest of the round. Played the rescue off the tee nearly all the way round. Had never done it before despite threatening to many times.

Anyway, the round went fairly well. After 16 holes I had 30 points. Looking safe for the buffer and an outside chance of a small cut. The 18th hole in our place is a very long and tough par 4, it would be easily index 1 if it was any other hole. It's a hole that really messes with my head. The first 200 yards is fairly flat, then there is a downhill stretch of about 60 to 70 yards and then the fairway rises uphill for the last 130 yards or so. The green is elevated and protected by two bunkers at the front. If you can catch a good drive off the tee you can get good run down the hill leaving a 160 yardish approach. But if fail to catch it right and come up short of the downhill you have a 200+ yard second and no chance of getting anywhere near the green. So it's really difficult to par without a good long drive.

So decide to finally take out the driver on the 17th with the 18th in mind and hit a great drive down the middle. Walk off with bogey after a dodgy second. Get onto 18th tee and the irrational fear hits again. Hit a blocked drive which sliced right into the rough and behind trees, had to punch a wedge down the fairway leaving a 4-iron 3rd shot into a par 4. Ended up walking off with a messy double bogey and 1 point. Final score 33 points, 4th place and 36 points was the winning score and CSS was 73 (+1).

So basically let my fears about a tough hole cost me instead of relaxing, playing percentage shots and getting no worse than bogey. I think it's little things like that separate me from the single figure handicappers. I haven't given up yet!

You don't need a gir to have a chance at a par... Rescue, 5i up the hill abd then wedge on and two putts for a bogey and two points.

PARlance · 02-07-2014 09:14PM

Barnaboy wrote: »

We all know how the mental side is so important. I have improved a lot with my concentration but I know I still have a good bit to go. Too often I find myself hitting shots when I'm not 100% comfortable over the ball with the inevitable result. Stopping yourself and walking away is so hard to do and your conscious that doing it too often then you are a slow player, like it or not.

Played with CharlieIRL last week and started with an awful high hook with the driver off the first tee. This was after a very poor performance with the driver a few days before so I decided immediately to abandon the driver for the rest of the round. Played the rescue off the tee nearly all the way round. Had never done it before despite threatening to many times.

Anyway, the round went fairly well. After 16 holes I had 30 points. Looking safe for the buffer and an outside chance of a small cut. The 18th hole in our place is a very long and tough par 4, it would be easily index 1 if it was any other hole. It's a hole that really messes with my head. The first 200 yards is fairly flat, then there is a downhill stretch of about 60 to 70 yards and then the fairway rises uphill for the last 130 yards or so. The green is elevated and protected by two bunkers at the front. If you can catch a good drive off the tee you can get good run down the hill leaving a 160 yardish approach. But if fail to catch it right and come up short of the downhill you have a 200+ yard second and no chance of getting anywhere near the green. So it's really difficult to par without a good long drive.

So decide to finally take out the driver on the 17th with the 18th in mind and hit a great drive down the middle. Walk off with bogey after a dodgy second. Get onto 18th tee and the irrational fear hits again. Hit a blocked drive which sliced right into the rough and behind trees, had to punch a wedge down the fairway leaving a 4-iron 3rd shot into a par 4. Ended up walking off with a messy double bogey and 1 point. Final score 33 points, 4th place and 36 points was the winning score and CSS was 73 (+1).

So basically let my fears about a tough hole cost me instead of relaxing, playing percentage shots and getting no worse than bogey. I think it's little things like that separate me from the single figure handicappers. I haven't given up yet!

Struggling to see where you went wrong mentally there Barna. The only problem I see is that you just hit a couple of bad shots.

You made a positive decision on 17 to hit the driver in search of a small cut. You smashed it down the fairway.
A bad second shot just let you down.

Same on 18. You've described the hole as if the driver is the right club.
You were just after a great one on 17 so I think it would have been daft not to hit it.
You just hit another bad shot.
You chipped out rather than taking a silly approach.
The hole became a par 5 after your slice and you made a good 5 in my eyes.

It doesn't scream poor mental decisions tbh.

You weren't confident with driver early on so you made a strong decision to avoid it.
When you got to near the buffer you made another strong decision to push on and risk the driver on final two. (Why not, nothing to lose).

Edit: I missed the fact that you said the irrational fear struck on the 18th tee.
That seems a bit weird after smashing one on 17.
I'd put confidence at fault then rather than poor decision making.

Barnaboy · 02-07-2014 09:52PM

PARlance wrote: »

Struggling to see where you went wrong mentally there Barna. The only problem I see is that you just hit a couple of bad shots.

Edit: I missed the fact that you said the irrational fear struck on the 18th tee.
That seems a bit weird after smashing one on 17.
I'd put confidence at fault then rather than poor decision making.

Maybe my main point didn't come across properly- I nearly always have a nervous fear standing on the 18th tee, not just that round. I honestly think that it's hard to play that hole by sensible golf and get anything better than bogey, the third shot is always tricky, can't see the green until you are 10 yards from it and the green slopes severely. Better off leathering the driver and hoping to get up to the edge of the green in 2. But I reckon only maybe 1 in 10 drives I hit on that hole is good. Only ever get a few pars a year on the hole and regularly double bogey or scratch the hole. I needed a par to try and get cut and didn't really threaten to at all, just disappointing. Happens too regularly.

PARlance · 02-07-2014 10:01PM

Barnaboy wrote: »

Maybe my main point didn't come across properly- I nearly always have a nervous fear standing on the 18th tee, not just that round. I honestly think that it's hard to play that hole by sensible golf and get anything better than bogey, the third shot is always tricky, can't see the green until you are 10 yards from it and the green slopes severely. Better off leathering the driver and hoping to get up to the edge of the green in 2. But I reckon only maybe 1 in 10 drives I hit on that hole is good. Only ever get a few pars a year on the hole and regularly double bogey or scratch the hole. I needed a par to try and get cut and didn't really threaten to at all, just disappointing. Happens too regularly.

Ah ok, that's a tough one. Thankfully our 18th is a very birdie-able Par 5.
Our first sounds very similar to that hole but it's index 1 and there's 17 holes to redeem yourself

Russman · 02-07-2014 10:11PM

PARlance wrote: »

I'd put confidence at fault then rather than poor decision making.

Definitely sounds as if this was the case here alright.

I think in general the key to getting cut & improving is to make your bad shots better. I know that's simple to say, but its really the key IMO. A good shot is a good shot, and all the practice in the world won't make your good shots much better than they already are. I know when I made a jump years ago from, say, a solid 6/7 h/cap to solid 3/4, it wasn't that I was hitting loads of great shots, it was more that I wasn't really hitting many destructive ones. I'll always remember the guy I was getting lessons from at the time, showing me an interview with Tiger where he was asked about Harrington's recent (at the time, c2004/5) improvement and Tiger said "...well, his bad shots are better....".
Wish I could get back to that level now !!

Course management and game plan are important, but its a fine line between good management and overthinking. Its a cliché, but its also true, take it one shot at a time is about the best advice anyone can give. Keep it simple. Don't think of how hard a hole is or how hard the 2nd shot is, just think of each shot as trying to hit from A to B and after you hit it, think about the next shot from A to B again. Easier said than done. Its amazing how often you can break CSS and feel like you haven't really hit a decent shot, as long as you are sensible and cut out the train wrecks. Likewise you can hit loads of shots out of the centre of the bat and two or three disasters mean another 0.1.

Ohh, and for best bang for buck in your practice, its short game, short game, short game. Followed by more short game.

Dayor Knight · 02-07-2014 11:06PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Agree Dayor. Just trying to be somewhat conciliatory.
I've played with plenty of lads in 50s going for every girl. (Lol typo gir)

If your in your 30s not going for girs. You've given up on golf or at least trying to be the best golfer you can.

And all power to you if your happy. But the majority . Overwhelming majority of golfers are not going to give up that young.

Yeah, I read that bit about the girls and thought they're some lads you're playing golf with! Over 50 no problem. Figured it out by the next paragraph! ðŸ˜Š

Dayor Knight · 02-07-2014 11:38PM

GreeBo wrote: »

Consistency will get your handicap down faster than one cut and then a bunch of 0.1's

Perhaps you can explain that. It seems to me that the handicap system is designed to cut you much more quickly than give you shots back, and rightly so. So you need to start hitting a couple of good scores better than your handicap to start bringing your handicap down. Of course, you'd like to do it consistently - I never suggested I'd like to have one good score and then go back to .1s. Of course the objective is to have a good score, then another...... the reality is different, but.... for a high handicapper, if you hit a great day and score say 42 points you could be cut 4 shots. Would take 40 rounds worse than scratch to slip back to that point. If you consistently score to your handicap, your handicap won't change at all.

GreeBo · 03-07-2014 08:45AM

Barnaboy wrote: »

Maybe my main point didn't come across properly- I nearly always have a nervous fear standing on the 18th tee, not just that round. I honestly think that it's hard to play that hole by sensible golf and get anything better than bogey, the third shot is always tricky, can't see the green until you are 10 yards from it and the green slopes severely. Better off leathering the driver and hoping to get up to the edge of the green in 2. But I reckon only maybe 1 in 10 drives I hit on that hole is good. Only ever get a few pars a year on the hole and regularly double bogey or scratch the hole. I needed a par to try and get cut and didn't really threaten to at all, just disappointing. Happens too regularly.

Two bolded bits...whats wrong with a bogey on one of the hardest holes on your course?
By your own admittance you double or worse it regularly....so clearly your score will be better if you stop going for pars and play for the bogey?
Maybe you'll get better at that blind approach and get a feel for the shot if you play it more often?

Its one thing going for a cut, its another risking missing your buffer and getting 0.1 back. I know which I'd rather do.

FixdePitchmark · 03-07-2014 08:52AM

Always go for pars - don't give up.

If you always go out and try play to your handicap - you will end up stuck at a handicap.
Up and downs to try beat your handicap or equal it will get you nowhere. Because most on here have a worse then .5 up and down rate.

If you go out everyday , and try just play to your handicap , where do you think you end up. Your handicap is your limit.

GreeBo · 03-07-2014 08:54AM

Dayor Knight wrote: »

Perhaps you can explain that. It seems to me that the handicap system is designed to cut you much more quickly than give you shots back, and rightly so. So you need to start hitting a couple of good scores better than your handicap to start bringing your handicap down. Of course, you'd like to do it consistently - I never suggested I'd like to have one good score and then go back to .1s. Of course the objective is to have a good score, then another...... the reality is different, but.... for a high handicapper, if you hit a great day and score say 42 points you could be cut 4 shots. Would take 40 rounds worse than scratch to slip back to that point. If you consistently score to your handicap, your handicap won't change at all.

The is that its far, far easier to score over par than it is to shoot under par. Hence why they are treated differently in the CONGU system.

But if your game is so random that you are shooting 42 points one week and then 22 the next you wont get anywhere in my view.

The system is designed that you dont regularly play to your handicap, you are not expected to. But you are supposed to be hitting your buffer zone.
Going for broke every time you step out there means your scores will vary massively, especially if you are a high handicap golfer.

The more consistent a player you are the more likely a few good shots will bring you in under CSS. Look at the best players in your club, their scores dont have a huge variance. They are always giving themselves the best chance at buffer, par or better.

If you are 20 over standing on the 16th then finishing birdie, birdie birdie is only useful if your handicap is over 18. How realistic is that finish really though?
However if you are 16 over playing off 18 and you throw in one birdie it can really impact your score and get you a cut. You dont know where the birdie might come so try to keep yourself ticking along at level par to your handicap and enjoy multiple cuts and not just one when you happen to have one of those days and then wallow in 20-points-land for the rest of the year.

PARlance · 03-07-2014 09:12AM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Always go for pars - don't give up.

If you always go out and try play to your handicap - you will end up stuck at a handicap.
Up and downs to try beat your handicap or equal it will get you nowhere. Because most on here have a worse then .5 up and down rate.

Don't think this is good blanket advise for a high HC'er.
Fair enough, I would say that most (nearly everyone) should be aiming for a par on each tee, the safest way to get that par that you feel confident with.

But it needs to be adjusted based how the hole progresses. So if your tee shot is good then par remains goal. If in trouble (it doesn't even have to be major trouble) then the goal needs to change.

I think this (lack of evaluation) was a major flaw of mine last year and I see it amongst fellow higher HC's. I'm scoring better and getting cut once this year after embracing it. No more (ok... A lot less

) hybrids from the rough when 220 out from a well protected hole.

I've scared myself this year with how much of a buzz I get from taking a wedge out and leaving myself a comfortable shot in in those situations.
Personally, I think you're chances of an up and down are improved when you actually play for that up and down.

So I'd take a hybrid approach to this. Some Fix and some Greebo.
I think the playing to your handicap approach (Greebo) is too cautious and the par each hole approach (Fix) is too agressive... Especially when guys take on daft shots in search for that par.

Russman · 03-07-2014 09:23AM

Lads, its seems there's an awful lot of thinking about strategy/plans going on here.........too much methinks (in the nicest possible way).
Keep it simple.

benny79 · 03-07-2014 09:55AM

@ Baraboy that hole sounds like the 16th on my course its index1 par4 very hard to reach in 2, it doglegs to the right also. Plus if you hit a good drive ul go down the hallow/dip and have a uphill or downhill lie! very rarly ul land on the bottom of the hollow and have a flat lie and if you do you can't see the green which is very hard to hold slopes very bad.

so here's what I done I went out 1 evening and just played that hole a few times different ways. my strategy now is hit a 3I or 3W off tee to top of hill before the hollow this lives 200y to green a good 4I/recue will make it or just be short.
now I nearly always have a slight chance for par but nearly always bogey it for 3 pts

and took the fear away

Now just to tacle the other 17

GreeBo · 03-07-2014 09:59AM

To those who think playing for a nett par will limit your score...of course you are going to score better than a nett par sometimes.

How do you explain getting birdies when you are playing for gross par?

GreeBo · 03-07-2014 10:00AM

Russman wrote: »

Lads, its seems there's an awful lot of thinking about strategy/plans going on here.........too much methinks (in the nicest possible way).
Keep it simple.

Thats why you figure it all out before you get on the course, you can work out most of the options before you hit a single shot.

Then on the course you just pick the appropriate action based on where you hit your last shot, prevailing conditions, how you are playing etc.

Not having a plan leads to poor decision making in the heat of the moment and/or hitting shots without 100% confidence.

Russman · 03-07-2014 10:21AM

GreeBo wrote: »

Thats why you figure it all out before you get on the course, you can work out most of the options before you hit a single shot.

Then on the course you just pick the appropriate action based on where you hit your last shot, prevailing conditions, how you are playing etc.

Not having a plan leads to poor decision making in the heat of the moment and/or hitting shots without 100% confidence.

Absolutely.
I guess I meant there's a lot of.........maybe "misdirected" thinking (not even sure that's the right word), ie not necessarily about the shot itself, but about the bigger picture and bottom line on the score card. I think its best to play each shot on its merits, albeit based on some game plan, and add them up at the end to see what your score is. I find I play best when I've no idea what my score is, ok, I'll know if I'm going well or not, but could be a couple of shots out either way. I really hate it when my marker says to me after 9 holes, something like "...that's 17pts for you on the front, is that right ?"

alxmorgan · 03-07-2014 10:26AM

Russman wrote: »

Absolutely.
I guess I meant there's a lot of.........maybe "misdirected" thinking (not even sure that's the right word), ie not necessarily about the shot itself, but about the bigger picture and bottom line on the score card. I think its best to play each shot on its merits, albeit based on some game plan, and add them up at the end to see what your score is. I find I play best when I've no idea what my score is, ok, I'll know if I'm going well or not, but could be a couple of shots out either way. I really hate it when my marker says to me after 9 holes, something like "...that's 17pts for you on the front, is that right ?"

This drives me bananas....I never tell someone what they have. If they ask I tell them. They generally know anyway. But by God why are you telling me ? Am I asking ? Am I ? Well f&*k off then :mad:

charlieIRL · 03-07-2014 11:21AM

alxmorgan wrote: »

This drives me bananas....I never tell someone what they have. If they ask I tell them. They generally know anyway. But by God why are you telling me ? Am I asking ? Am I ? Well f&*k off then :mad:

I'm the exact same, I always find if i'm told then i'll go on and make a mess of the next few holes!!!

benny79 · 03-07-2014 11:25AM

or if im playing well etc I fall apart! I make a habit of telling playing partner I dont want to know my score unless I ask.

ssbob · 03-07-2014 11:39AM

Russman wrote: »

. I really hate it when my marker says to me after 9 holes, something like "...that's 17pts for you on the front, is that right ?"

In fairness maybe the guy is just checking, what if you and he have a dispute at the end of the round about the 1st hole?

alxmorgan wrote: »

This drives me bananas....I never tell someone what they have. If they ask I tell them. They generally know anyway. But by God why are you telling me ? Am I asking ? Am I ? Well f&*k off then :mad:

Above and below, I normally ask people I am playing with do they want to know. And tbh I think you are just using this as an excuse for playing badly afterwards.................I always know my score as I am playing, there is no way I could forget it tbh!!!

charlieIRL wrote: »

I'm the exact same, I always find if i'm told then i'll go on and make a mess of the next few holes!!!

benny79 wrote: »

or if im playing well etc I fall apart! I make a habit of telling playing partner I dont want to know my score unless I ask.

This is a fair enough if you explicitly tell someone on the first.

GreeBo · 03-07-2014 11:42AM

ssbob wrote: »

In fairness maybe the guy is just checking, what if you and he have a dispute at the end of the round about the 1st hole?

Above and below, I normally ask people I am playing with do they want to know. And tbh I think you are just using this as an excuse for playing badly afterwards.................I always know my score as I am playing, there is no way I could forget it tbh!!!

You can dispute that at the end just as easily though.

You wont know it if you dont think about it.
I can tell you my score for every hole from last week,down to what clubs I hit for each shot.
During a round I just dont think about it, will always know if its very good or very bad, if its a couple of shots either way I wont know for sure.
It takes some effort, but you just have to focus on not thinking about it when those thoughts enter your head.

alxmorgan · 03-07-2014 11:45AM

ssbob wrote: »

Above and below, I normally ask people I am playing with do they want to know. And tbh I think you are just using this as an excuse for playing badly afterwards.................I always know my score as I am playing, there is no way I could forget it tbh!!!

Shoud I let it affect me ? Of course not. I also shouldn't get nervous on the first tee but I do. And people leading tournaments shouldn't let pressure get to them but they do.

But it just annoys me when they don't even ask.

Russman · 03-07-2014 11:48AM

ssbob wrote: »

In fairness maybe the guy is just checking, what if you and he have a dispute at the end of the round about the 1st hole?

Ohh I'd be 100% sure he's just checking, its just a pet peeve of mine.
Mostly I think guys just do it out of habit. TBH I wouldn't even bother saying anything before or during the round, but I try to make a conscious effort to forget what score they've mentioned on the 10th tee.

ssbob · 03-07-2014 11:49AM

GreeBo wrote: »

You can dispute that at the end just as easily though.

You wont know it if you dont think about it.
I can tell you my score for every hole from last week,down to what clubs I hit for each shot.
During a round I just dont think about it, will always know if its very good or very bad, if its a couple of shots either way I wont know for sure.
It takes some effort, but you just have to focus on not thinking about it when those thoughts enter your head.

I am like you in that I could tell you the exact club I hit on every shot from where on prob my last 3/4 rounds at any given stage.

Maybe I need some mental coaching to get the score out of my head.

I am looking for level 5's as I play so it is hard to get away from that, I always have 1 up, 2 down etc in my head the whole time.

Freemount09 · 03-07-2014 12:10PM

I'm always surprised that people can tell me their exact score or number of shots any time throughout the round.

I usually jot down my score also on the card I'm marking but wouldn't have a running total or anything. I'd do my tots at end to double check my marker at the end of the round.

If a fella does tell me my score mid way through I pay no attention and like everything else on the golf course I wouldn't let it upset me !

ssbob · 03-07-2014 12:13PM

Freemount09 wrote: »

I'm always surprised that people can tell me their exact score or number of shots any time throughout the round.

It comes with the job I reckon:rolleyes:

FixdePitchmark · 03-07-2014 02:03PM

There was a thread there about what , pisses people off. Most minor things.

If you don't want your score to be told to you , let the person know. The onus is on you. It is not their fault you have issue with your score.

FixdePitchmark · 03-07-2014 02:28PM

Back on subject.

I think Greebo Golf - has far more value for higher handicap players. Follow it and your handicap will fall. But I feel you will get to a certain level where your lack of GIRs will just hold you back. Every green you miss - over the long run you lose .5 of a shot at best. So this theory is reliant on an exceptional to incredible up and down rate to drop handicap.

Going out every time to play to your handicap and playing an index 7 for example - with an 8 iron - 8 iron and trying to get a par. Is just going to get you to a certain limit.

You eventually have to move on and get to that green in GIR. You have to get to that 9 to 12 GIR rate - on other days you will have more and have a chance of a level par round or lower.

If you are not getting GIRs at a reasonable rate - examine why and solve this. Sticking at playing bogey golf for the sake of a handicap is daft (imo) - test yourself and get out of your comfort zone.

I can reach all the holes on my course in regulation. So for (me) - there is no point in ever laying up. In fact - I've had to review my par 5 approach , was going for all in 3 , but have decided that it is a drive and a 6 iron now to one and am reviewing another. If I had gone 8 iron , 8 iron - 7 iron to that all my life - I wouldn't have found that out. I now have eagle and birdies on it, pars from the bunker.

So whilst there is merit in containment for golf - there is also merit in pushing and testing yourself. If you get stuck in a , I can't get to that green in GIR - you are not seeing where you can get to.

So fair play Greebo on how you play golf - it is a testament that people actually genuinely call it Greebo golf. But I believe you (plural) get to about 9 with it - I reckon you lose about .5 of a shot per hole .

I think that there is a personality aspect to it as well - there are some individuals that genuinely couldn't play golf in that way - I'm serious about that . I've played boring golf for a while. Yes you have more average days - but so what , I want days I go very low. I want eagles , I want birdies on every hole on the course at some stage. I hate playing boring golf.

So - I admire somebody can play golf like that.

But, it is not for everybody. And I'm happy with my handicap and feel I can go lower.

Wombatman · 03-07-2014 02:36PM

Players who go for it within reason have a better chance of posting big scores than player who "lay up\ bail out". They also have more nightmare scores obviously.

Looking at the par three lay up scenario, maybe numbers might work out like this in the long run.

DB+ DB Bo Par Bird Ace
Go for it 10 20 35 25 9 1
Lay up 3 20 55 20 2 0

On the days when the 'go for it guy' does well he is in a better position to win competitions. His scores will fluctuate more than 'lay up guy', who will post a better scores more often, but rarely great scores.

Losing / Gaining Shots : The mental side of things

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