Losing / Gaining Shots : The mental side of things

GreeBo · 02-07-2014 07:16AM

Carpo86 wrote: »

Of course it is better to have a double bogey on a hole that you have a shot on than a hole were you do not.

That's not the point I was making though. To clarify, the logic of the point I was making is quite simple.

Lets imagine two golfers of the same handicap playing two hypothetical rounds. In both we assume that at some point in the round each golfer is going to have 'a disaster' and take say a quadruple bogey.

In both of these hypothetical rounds, each golfer is going to have 17 pars on the other 17 holes (the score itself is irrelevant, as long as they take the same number of shots per hole).

If one player has his 'disaster' on a hole where he has a shot and one player has his on a hole where he does not have a shot, the player who has his disaster on a hole where he does not have a shot will score one point more.

Forgive me, but your previous post said the exact opposite of "of course it's better"!
Anyway, it can't be better in one scenario and worse in another. I think your example is flawed, you don't get to choose where the pars are and are not, you can't assume 17 pars are going to happen. Each hole in stableford is completely unrelated to each other hole, unlike strokes.

You might as well have said, two players have 72 strokes, one guy has 17 holes in one and then a disaster, the other has all pars, who do you want to be? It just doesn't work like that...

ssbob · 02-07-2014 09:13AM

GreeBo wrote: »

Simple reason for that, with a par 3 you have less chances to make up for a bad shot.
Also, it should be nigh on impossible to have worse than a bogey on a par 3, but people get themselves into snowman numbers by chasing a GIR when they have no business doing it.

You have tried selling me this before but I don't agree on a number of reasons, on a par 3 I will always er on the side of caution but as a high handicapper I am much more likely hit a real bad hook slice into the ditch even if playing safe on a par 3.

My latest round for example where I shot 42 points off my high handicap, there are 5 par 3's on this particular course:

4th hole, 110 yards, complete cliff face drop of about 30 yards to a green in front, anything chunked is in a ditch, anything topped is through the green in the water.................I topped my tee shot into the water behind the green, I was just trying to get it down there.

I don't think you understand sometimes that higher handicappers can just hit really bad shots even when playing safe..........

Russman · 02-07-2014 09:30AM

ssbob wrote: »

You have tried selling me this before but I don't agree on a number of reasons, on a par 3 I will always er on the side of caution but as a high handicapper I am much more likely hit a real bad hook slice into the ditch even if playing safe on a par 3.

My latest round for example where I shot 42 points off my high handicap, there are 5 par 3's on this particular course:

4th hole, 110 yards, complete cliff face drop of about 30 yards to a green in front, anything chunked is in a ditch, anything topped is through the green in the water.................I topped my tee shot into the water behind the green, I was just trying to get it down there.

I don't think you understand sometimes that higher handicappers can just hit really bad shots even when playing safe..........

I think I'd agree with this.
Trying to hit a green on a par 3 may well, in theory, be the wrong option for a lot of players, but there are many reasons we all do it.
Not least of which would be that its traditionally perceived as a "one shot" hole and I think for many or most golfers the notion of laying up on a par 3 simply wouldn't enter their head. Not through any sense of ego or macho, but I reckon it just wouldn't dawn on most players to hit a mid iron into a safe area on a long dangerous par 3 rather than have a slash with a 3 wood.

The other end of it, is that golf is supposed to be fun. Some players get their fun out of going for shots, others get it by the final number on the card and most I'd say fall somewhere in the middle. Different strokes and all that, there's no one size fits all with regard to strategy. Its like the difference between playing to win and playing not to lose, neither is right and neither is wrong, you have to judge which is best suited to you as an individual.

benny79 · 02-07-2014 10:19AM

Surely you would have to go for the green on all par3's in 1! sure if you lay up you have 2 get up and down for par which would nt be possible for most high HC ie me

unless its 210+ yards

slingerz · 02-07-2014 10:36AM

Russman wrote: »

I think I'd agree with this.
Trying to hit a green on a par 3 may well, in theory, be the wrong option for a lot of players, but there are many reasons we all do it.
Not least of which would be that its traditionally perceived as a "one shot" hole and I think for many or most golfers the notion of laying up on a par 3 simply wouldn't enter their head. Not through any sense of ego or macho, but I reckon it just wouldn't dawn on most players to hit a mid iron into a safe area on a long dangerous par 3 rather than have a slash with a 3 wood.

The other end of it, is that golf is supposed to be fun. Some players get their fun out of going for shots, others get it by the final number on the card and most I'd say fall somewhere in the middle. Different strokes and all that, there's no one size fits all with regard to strategy. Its like the difference between playing to win and playing not to lose, neither is right and neither is wrong, you have to judge which is best suited to you as an individual.

dont have that problem in my course as the par 3's are short enough, the first is a PW but its a tight narrow green with nowhere to layup to, the 2nd is a decent 4 hybrid/5i again with no area to lay up to, the 4th is a 9i again with no where to layup to while the 5th is a decent 5i/6i but it does have a 'fairway' in front of it to layup to.

Makes only 1 hole from 5 that I can realistically play short of the green to leave a little chip on

GreeBo · 02-07-2014 11:25AM

ssbob wrote: »

You have tried selling me this before but I don't agree on a number of reasons, on a par 3 I will always er on the side of caution but as a high handicapper I am much more likely hit a real bad hook slice into the ditch even if playing safe on a par 3.

My latest round for example where I shot 42 points off my high handicap, there are 5 par 3's on this particular course:

4th hole, 110 yards, complete cliff face drop of about 30 yards to a green in front, anything chunked is in a ditch, anything topped is through the green in the water.................I topped my tee shot into the water behind the green, I was just trying to get it down there.

I don't think you understand sometimes that higher handicappers can just hit really bad shots even when playing safe..........

I'd hardly advise laying up on a 110yrd hole, exactly for the reasons you state.
Its the guys hitting a 3 wood to a par 3 that I laugh at.
On a long hole, a shorter club hooked or sliced will not be as bad as a longer club hooked or sliced.

Also, I think you forget that I was a high handicap golfer for far, far longer than I have been a mid handicap golfer!

GreeBo · 02-07-2014 11:27AM

Russman wrote: »

I think I'd agree with this.
Trying to hit a green on a par 3 may well, in theory, be the wrong option for a lot of players, but there are many reasons we all do it.
Not least of which would be that its traditionally perceived as a "one shot" hole and I think for many or most golfers the notion of laying up on a par 3 simply wouldn't enter their head. Not through any sense of ego or macho, but I reckon it just wouldn't dawn on most players to hit a mid iron into a safe area on a long dangerous par 3 rather than have a slash with a 3 wood.

The other end of it, is that golf is supposed to be fun. Some players get their fun out of going for shots, others get it by the final number on the card and most I'd say fall somewhere in the middle. Different strokes and all that, there's no one size fits all with regard to strategy. Its like the difference between playing to win and playing not to lose, neither is right and neither is wrong, you have to judge which is best suited to you as an individual.

Makes a lot of sense.
I think Pros play to win, handicap golfers should play not to lose.

GreeBo · 02-07-2014 11:29AM

slingerz wrote: »

dont have that problem in my course as the par 3's are short enough, the first is a PW but its a tight narrow green with nowhere to layup to, the 2nd is a decent 4 hybrid/5i again with no area to lay up to, the 4th is a 9i again with no where to layup to while the 5th is a decent 5i/6i but it does have a 'fairway' in front of it to layup to.

Makes only 1 hole from 5 that I can realistically play short of the green to leave a little chip on

What course?
I find it hard to accept that a 4 hybrid hole has no layup area?

benny79 wrote: »

Surely you would have to go for the green on all par3's in 1! sure if you lay up you have 2 get up and down for par which would nt be possible for most high HC ie me unless its 210+ yards

If you are a high handicap you dont need to get up and down for par on a long par 3....thats the whole point!
You need a par far, far less than you need to avoid a 6

kieran. · 02-07-2014 11:45AM

GreeBo wrote: »

handicap golfers should play not to lose.

I have to say I think this is the most ridiculous comment I have yet to see in the Golf forum. Every time you step on to the course in a competition your goal should be plain and simple to win, the only way you can win is to do it for yourself. By your reckoning the winner of a competition is not in fact a winner but indeed the person who lost the least on any given day,that’s just plain wrong IMHO. [

Russman · 02-07-2014 11:48AM

GreeBo wrote: »

I find it hard to accept that a 4 hybrid hole has no layup area?

Depends on how far you hit your 4 hybrid.....:D:D !!

FixdePitchmark · 02-07-2014 12:39PM

I've never layed up on a par 3 and never will.

ssbob · 02-07-2014 12:43PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I've never "intentionally" layed up on a par 3 and never will.

I adjusted your statement

benny79 · 02-07-2014 12:55PM

I know I have a shot on the hole, but I play every hole to try and par it except index 1 & 2 were id have 2 shots my aim is 1 over for each!

GreeBo · 02-07-2014 01:05PM

benny79 wrote: »

I know I have a shot on the hole, but I play every hole to try and par it except index 1 & 2 were id have 2 shots my aim is 1 over for each!

So why play index 1 & 2 differently than all the others if you are aiming to Par each hole (which I think is madness off 20 hcap btw!)?

Without being rude, off 20 clearly you cannot bogey each hole, so why are you trying to par them instead?

ssbob · 02-07-2014 01:10PM

GreeBo wrote: »

So why play index 1 & 2 differently than all the others if you are aiming to Par each hole (which I think is madness off 20 hcap btw!)?

Without being rude, off 20 clearly you cannot bogey each hole, so why are you trying to par them instead?

This forum goes around in circles

We can all birdie/par holes so I see no issue in playing for a par as long as there isn't a more sensible option available when trying to shoot a score in a comp.

GreeBo · 02-07-2014 01:14PM

ssbob wrote: »

This forum goes around in circles

We can all birdie/par holes so I see no issue in playing for a par as long as there isn't a more sensible option available when trying to shoot a score in a comp.

Thats because none of you ever listen to me!!! :P

We can all birdie and par holes, but we cant all avoid doubles and worse.

If you goal is to try to win whatever you are playing in on the day then going for everything is fine.
If your goal is to get to the lowest handicap you can (and whatever you win on the way is a bonus) then that requires more management.

Can you agree that if your handicap is higher than 18, it doesnt make sense to try to play to 10 every day?

/edit
If there was no down side to going for it (casual round for example, or non qualifying) then by all means shoot the lights out, I know I do. But my responsibility as a CONGU golfer is to try to shoot my best score everytime. Going for everything will demonstrably not achieve this, it will in fact leave me playing off a higher handicap than I would have if I played more conservatively.

ssbob · 02-07-2014 01:24PM

GreeBo wrote: »

Can you agree that if your handicap is higher than 18, it doesnt make sense to try to play to 10 every day?

/edit
If there was no down side to going for it (casual round for example, or non qualifying) then by all means shoot the lights out, I know I do. But my responsibility as a CONGU golfer is to try to shoot my best score everytime. Going for everything will demonstrably not achieve this, it will in fact leave me playing off a higher handicap than I would have if I played more conservatively.

Agreed and this is exactly how I play for the most part but I think sometimes I might aswell hit driver than hit a 6 iron as I am likely to hook a 6 iron into the ditch whereas a hooked driver would clear the ditch!!

In society outing and casual outings, I use the driver 14 times and sometimes more if I want to have a crack at a no way reacheable green:D

Hit one once:D

FixdePitchmark · 02-07-2014 01:33PM

Absolutely crazy stuff.

If you are laying up on a par 3, there is a bigger issue at stake. That is your mid iron / long game problem. Laying up should be an interim , only for extreme situations. Yes there are holes like the 4th in The Heritage and as the legend now dictates, the 1st at the Grange - that are very hard holes.

But, this forum is suppose to be lads more into their golf than the Sunday golfer - look at the handicap thread.

I'd even go as far as saying , if you are off 18 etc, and are hitting balls in water / short - go to the range and hit a couple of 1000 balls , get lessons. Sort out your issue.

Maybe if you have a physical problem or lack speed - fair enough , maybe if you are in your 50s or 60s or 80s fair enough.

But - I watch a few amateur sports. And most people in mid 30s - 40s , don't give up on playing a sport, and start playing it wrong. Particularly golf , when they are improving at this age.

Most of us are in 30s / 40s.

It is unfathomable - that a person would take up golf , and lay up on a par 3. If they are , sort it out. Lay up for a while, but the target for all on here - should be to hit 18 GIRs. Only when you have exhausted every effort to try do this, should you ever consider laying up on a par 3. If you don't have a club that can carry 180 to 210 . Your going nowhere.

Anyway - not for me, each to their own.

GreeBo · 02-07-2014 02:15PM

ssbob wrote: »

Agreed and this is exactly how I play for the most part but I think sometimes I might aswell hit driver than hit a 6 iron as I am likely to hook a 6 iron into the ditch whereas a hooked driver would clear the ditch!!

In society outing and casual outings, I use the driver 14 times and sometimes more if I want to have a crack at a no way reacheable green:D

Hit one once:D

Hitting the driver because its safer in that scenario is totally fine (by me)
I do that on the 5th in Grange, a bad drive will still carry most of the trouble, anything else mi**** will be in the middle of the trees or bunkers.

Im not saying dont hit it, just that you should hit it when it makes sense, not "just coz"

benny79 · 02-07-2014 02:17PM

cause index 1 & 2 on my course obviously are the 2 hardest but also are 2 par 4's and very hard to reach in 2! so I find if I play for position I'll have a better chance of getting +1 on each obviously a bad tee shot I am screwed, plus I have par every hole on my course at some stage so I play to par if I get +1 Im happy +2 not so, my problem is by scratching 3/4 holes a round usually by oob or in the trees then a duffetc

And Im 21hc:(

I really would love to know how people go from high hc to low as im just finding it impossable and have been playing for a few yrs now! had lessons (loads) etc and am playing 2/3 times a week + range Have yet to break 90 came close a few times. and im only 34!

ssbob · 02-07-2014 02:22PM

benny79 wrote: »

cause index 1 & 2 on my course obviously are the 2 hardest but also are 2 par 4's and very hard to reach in 2! so I find if I play for position I'll have a better chance of getting +1 on each obviously a bad tee shot I am screwed, plus I have par every hole on my course at some stage so I play to par if I get +1 Im happy +2 not so, my problem is by scratching 3/4 holes a round usually by oob or in the trees then a duffetc

And Im 21hc:(

I really would love to know how people go from high hc to low as im just finding it impossable and have been playing for a few yrs now! had lessons (loads) etc and am playing 2/3 times a week + range Have yet to break 90 came close a few times. and im only 34!

We are of a similar level mate and I was struggling to break 90, did it at the end of last year by not doing anything different other than getting a new driver in the bag. Got 87 then 2 weeks ago after a ridiculous back 9 but think sometimes you got to let the score out of your head and just play.

Concentration is huge for me aswell, slow play drives me mad.

GreeBo · 02-07-2014 02:23PM

benny79 wrote: »

cause index 1 & 2 on my course obviously are the 2 hardest but also are 2 par 4's and very hard to reach in 2! so I find if I play for position I'll have a better chance of getting +1 on each obviously a bad tee shot I am screwed, plus I have par every hole on my course at some stage so I play to par if I get +1 Im happy +2 not so, my problem is by scratching 3/4 holes a round usually by oob or in the trees then a duffetc

Not true. A bad drives means you still have 2 more approach shots to make up for the bad drive. Even then you can make up for it with a good chip or single putt. I've birdied nearly every hole in my club. Take a look at your stats, I'll bet you have had 10 times as many doubles as you have had birdies, yet you are tailoring your game to these "flukes" and ignore the stats that are staring you in the face. Doubles are killing your score far more than birdies are helping it.

benny79 wrote: »

And Im 21hc:(

Even more reason that playing for pars is madness. Come back to me when you are regularly playing bogey golf and we can talk about changing strategy.

benny79 wrote: »

I really would love to know how people go from high hc to low as im just finding it impossable and have been playing for a few yrs now! had lessons (loads) etc and am playing 2/3 times a week + range Have yet to break 90 came close a few times. and im only 34!

In my opinion you are trying the wrong things.
It may seem counter intuitive, but trying to get more pars, at your level, is not going to help your score. The reason is that playing for pars is causing you doubles.
Avoid the doubles, play to 18 over and enjoy the cuts.

Carpo86 · 02-07-2014 04:46PM

GreeBo wrote: »

Forgive me, but your previous post said the exact opposite of "of course it's better"!
Anyway, it can't be better in one scenario and worse in another. I think your example is flawed, you don't get to choose where the pars are and are not, you can't assume 17 pars are going to happen. Each hole in stableford is completely unrelated to each other hole, unlike strokes.

You might as well have said, two players have 72 strokes, one guy has 17 holes in one and then a disaster, the other has all pars, who do you want to be? It just doesn't work like that...

No, the two posts are not contradictory. While a double is obviously more useful on a hole where you have a shot than one were you do not, I am talking about 'disasters' rather than just doubles. In both posts my point was that if you are going to have a 'blow up' (by which I mean a triple bogey or worse) it is better to have that blow up on a hole where you don't have a shot than one were you do.

As you have a fixed number of shots, having your 'blow up' on a hole where you don't have a shot will be less punishing to your overall score as it will mean you have one more shot over the other 17 holes than you would if you had the blow up on a hole were you had a shot.

Of course it is true that each hole (and indeed each shot) is an independent event, however in the context of discussing the hypothetical scenario which is being discussed, I think what I am saying is indisputable.

slingerz · 02-07-2014 04:55PM

GreeBo wrote: »

Not true. A bad drives means you still have 2 more approach shots to make up for the bad drive. Even then you can make up for it with a good chip or single putt. I've birdied nearly every hole in my club. Take a look at your stats, I'll bet you have had 10 times as many doubles as you have had birdies, yet you are tailoring your game to these "flukes" and ignore the stats that are staring you in the face. Doubles are killing your score far more than birdies are helping it.

Even more reason that playing for pars is madness. Come back to me when you are regularly playing bogey golf and we can talk about changing strategy.

In my opinion you are trying the wrong things.
It may seem counter intuitive, but trying to get more pars, at your level, is not going to help your score. The reason is that playing for pars is causing you doubles.
Avoid the doubles, play to 18 over and enjoy the cuts.

This is an interesting theory and I'd like to test it out tbh. I am off 17 and I reckon the biggest problem i have is lost balls from the tee.

What is your opinion in relation to the following hole for a player of my handicap. it is index 1 of a relatively long par 4. Even with a good drive the chances of me making the green in 2 is somewhat slim. Would you advise taking a 5i off the tee for example and then going with another 5i to be short of the green and play a chip shot on and hope to make the putt or at worst 2 putt?

benny79 · 02-07-2014 05:03PM

@ greebo I hardly ever get birdies mate, would have 3-5 pars a round obviously a few doubles and scratches.
if I play to bogey id be worst tried it before I just have to keep out the hollywood shots and take my punishment!

On a serious note would love to play a round with yourself to learn some tips dont see why I shouldnt play to par when I have easly parred all the rest of the holes!

take last sunday first time I joined the 2's club was on the green for 1 for all them except the first (3rd hole). and parred the rest. never done that before as the par 3's are all stuff on my home course! its a messed up game:)

Dayor Knight · 02-07-2014 05:44PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Absolutely crazy stuff.

If you are laying up on a par 3, there is a bigger issue at stake. That is your mid iron / long game problem. Laying up should be an interim , only for extreme situations. Yes there are holes like the 4th in The Heritage and as the legend now dictates, the 1st at the Grange - that are very hard holes.

But, this forum is suppose to be lads more into their golf than the Sunday golfer - look at the handicap thread.

I'd even go as far as saying , if you are off 18 etc, and are hitting balls in water / short - go to the range and hit a couple of 1000 balls , get lessons. Sort out your issue.

Maybe if you have a physical problem or lack speed - fair enough , maybe if you are in your 50s or 60s or 80s fair enough.

But - I watch a few amateur sports. And most people in mid 30s - 40s , don't give up on playing a sport, and start playing it wrong. Particularly golf , when they are improving at this age.

Most of us are in 30s / 40s.

It is unfathomable - that a person would take up golf , and lay up on a par 3. If they are , sort it out. Lay up for a while, but the target for all on here - should be to hit 18 GIRs. Only when you have exhausted every effort to try do this, should you ever consider laying up on a par 3. If you don't have a club that can carry 180 to 210 . Your going nowhere.

Anyway - not for me, each to their own.

50s! Please give us 50s a break. We're not old codgers yet!

Dayor Knight · 02-07-2014 05:56PM

slingerz wrote: »

This is an interesting theory and I'd like to test it out tbh. I am off 17 and I reckon the biggest problem i have is lost balls from the tee.

What is your opinion in relation to the following hole for a player of my handicap. it is index 1 of a relatively long par 4. Even with a good drive the chances of me making the green in 2 is somewhat slim. Would you advise taking a 5i off the tee for example and then going with another 5i to be short of the green and play a chip shot on and hope to make the putt or at worst 2 putt?

Sounds like a good strategy doesn't it? We're all inclined to pull out the driver but if there's a tee you're not comfortable on, and often losing your ball or scratching the hole as a result, then its well worth trying an alternative strategy. If you then score on the hole, it's a good result. Am getting better at using the head like this. Now just need that one big score to bring the handicap down (0ne for the positive golf thread!).

FixdePitchmark · 02-07-2014 06:01PM

Agree Dayor. Just trying to be somewhat conciliatory.
I've played with plenty of lads in 50s going for every girl. (Lol typo gir)

If your in your 30s not going for girs. You've given up on golf or at least trying to be the best golfer you can.

And all power to you if your happy. But the majority . Overwhelming majority of golfers are not going to give up that young.

GreeBo · 02-07-2014 08:37PM

Dayor Knight wrote: »

Sounds like a good strategy doesn't it? We're all inclined to pull out the driver but if there's a tee you're not comfortable on, and often losing your ball or scratching the hole as a result, then its well worth trying an alternative strategy. If you then score on the hole, it's a good result. Am getting better at using the head like this. Now just need that one big score to bring the handicap down (0ne for the positive golf thread!).

Consistency will get your handicap down faster than one cut and then a bunch of 0.1's

Barnaboy · 02-07-2014 08:37PM

We all know how the mental side is so important. I have improved a lot with my concentration but I know I still have a good bit to go. Too often I find myself hitting shots when I'm not 100% comfortable over the ball with the inevitable result. Stopping yourself and walking away is so hard to do and your conscious that doing it too often then you are a slow player, like it or not.

Played with CharlieIRL last week and started with an awful high hook with the driver off the first tee. This was after a very poor performance with the driver a few days before so I decided immediately to abandon the driver for the rest of the round. Played the rescue off the tee nearly all the way round. Had never done it before despite threatening to many times.

Anyway, the round went fairly well. After 16 holes I had 30 points. Looking safe for the buffer and an outside chance of a small cut. The 18th hole in our place is a very long and tough par 4, it would be easily index 1 if it was any other hole. It's a hole that really messes with my head. The first 200 yards is fairly flat, then there is a downhill stretch of about 60 to 70 yards and then the fairway rises uphill for the last 130 yards or so. The green is elevated and protected by two bunkers at the front. If you can catch a good drive off the tee you can get good run down the hill leaving a 160 yardish approach. But if fail to catch it right and come up short of the downhill you have a 200+ yard second and no chance of getting anywhere near the green. So it's really difficult to par without a good long drive.

So decide to finally take out the driver on the 17th with the 18th in mind and hit a great drive down the middle. Walk off with bogey after a dodgy second. Get onto 18th tee and the irrational fear hits again. Hit a blocked drive which sliced right into the rough and behind trees, had to punch a wedge down the fairway leaving a 4-iron 3rd shot into a par 4. Ended up walking off with a messy double bogey and 1 point. Final score 33 points, 4th place and 36 points was the winning score and CSS was 73 (+1).

So basically let my fears about a tough hole cost me instead of relaxing, playing percentage shots and getting no worse than bogey. I think it's little things like that separate me from the single figure handicappers. I haven't given up yet!

Losing / Gaining Shots : The mental side of things

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