Irish People Have Low Self Esteem

conorhal · 01-07-2014 09:53AM

Fortheloveosod wrote: »

This can't apply to everyone, but you have to admit there's something to what the OP said. I have fairly adequate self esteem and don't care for drink. I have Catholic guilt but it mostly manifests itself in computer games. Used to manifest itself in money as well but I believe I may have that overcome now. I can't stand to waste any thing, either, sometimes to an absolute detriment. All that's Catholic guilt. For me it's mostly positive but can be negative. I'm dating the same woman for better than a decade now as well. That has to have contributed to my opinion of myself. (And we're both fairly happy about it. At least I am. I hope she is. Oh, my. What if she's totally dissatisfied? What'll I do? Once I ask her she'll only lie, like. She'll tell me everything's grand and her secretly loathing me. There's no-thing else for it, I have to break up with her.)

You seem to be mistaking neurotic for Catholic guilt. As for Catholic guilt, I honestly don't know anybody under 40 who even knows what that means (and a couple of people that could actually use some).

Babooshka · 01-07-2014 10:02AM

How about Irish People do too much navel gazing and wringing of their hands saying "look at us, we're alcos and we're not as good as every other nation"! How about we all stop, man up, and get on with it....janey stop whining it's a nice day out.

strobe · 01-07-2014 10:14AM

Babooshka wrote: »

How about Irish People do too much navel gazing and wringing of their hands saying "look at us, we're alcos and we're not as good as every other nation"! How about we all stop, man up, and get on with it....janey stop whining it's a nice day out.

Then await the inevitable "The problem with this country, the reason it's so ****, is all you people (I of course am the exception) and your "ah sure it'll be grand attitude"" thread?

=======

Irish people are 99.9% like 99.9% of all other humans. Sorry you're not special and the reason you aren't riding supermodels and a multimillionaire is not because you have unfortunately been born in some particularly bad country and culture that just doesn't suit someone as amazing as you clearly are and is holding you back. You're just a bit **** at things in general, sorry.

Babooshka · 01-07-2014 10:17AM

strobe wrote: »

Then await the inevitable "The problem with this country, the reason it's so ****, is all you people (I of course am the exception) and your "ah sure it'll be grand attitude"" thread?

Irish people are 99.9% like 99.9% of all other humans. Sorry you're not special and the reason you aren't riding supermodels and a multimillionaire is not because you have unfortunately been born in some particularly bad country and culture that just doesn't suit someone as amazing as you clearly are and is holding you back. You're just a bit **** at things in general, sorry.

Ha ha

strobe · 01-07-2014 10:19AM

Babooshka wrote: »

Ha ha, talk about missing the point

Second paragraph wasn't addressed to you. I agree with your post.

Babooshka · 01-07-2014 10:19AM

strobe wrote: »

Second paragraph wasn't addressed to you. I agree with your post.

Sorry I got that and deleted the missed the point bit

wooops...it's my low self esteem thinking you attacked me

c_man · 01-07-2014 10:20AM

Irish People Have Low Self Esteem

Well I do, but I don't think it's as a result of being Irish. More likely the result of decades of unrelenting assault by the ad men of Madison Avenue.

jimgoose · 01-07-2014 10:22AM

strobe wrote: »

...the reason you aren't riding supermodels and a multimillionaire...

Well I don't know about the rest of ye gobadaws, but the reason I'm not riding a supermodel and a multimillionaire is that, in spite of my best efforts, the two of them bumped into each other. Take a lesson from that. :eek:

thegreatgonzo · 01-07-2014 10:31AM

Fortheloveosod wrote: »

. I have fairly adequate self esteem and don't care for drink. I have Catholic guilt but it mostly manifests itself in computer games. Used to manifest itself in money as well but I believe I may have that overcome now. I can't stand to waste any thing, either, sometimes to an absolute detriment. All that's Catholic guilt. )

I'm sorry but I have no idea what you are on about.

Frank Lee Midere · 01-07-2014 10:32AM

strobe wrote: »

Then await the inevitable "The problem with this country, the reason it's so ****, is all you people (I of course am the exception) and your "ah sure it'll be grand attitude"" thread?

=======

Irish people are 99.9% like 99.9% of all other humans. Sorry you're not special and the reason you aren't riding supermodels and a multimillionaire is not because you have unfortunately been born in some particularly bad country and culture that just doesn't suit someone as amazing as you clearly are and is holding you back. You're just a bit **** at things in general, sorry.

The thing is the people who like to generalise about their own culture having a problem are clear that they exclude themselves. So that rhetoric won't work.

sheesh · 01-07-2014 10:47AM

UCDCritic wrote: »

Maybe it's because we were colonized for so long

Maybe it's because of the Catholic church and their weapons of blame and shame and other horrors

Maybe it's because of mass migration for so many generations

...But I can help but feel Irish people are just emotionally damaged in such a way that on a deep level we feel not quite adequate and it's not fixable

In my experience with international people who have come to study and work in Ireland it seems their general perception of Irish people is that we are incompetent, like we are the drunk children of Europe, and I think they're right

For so long we were a poor nation and as soon as we have some real money we squandered it like a child wasting their money on too many sweets not knowing how to really spend the money

I think it's all just rooted in low self esteem as a nation

sounds to me like you have met some obnoxious gobshi*es.

I think that the whole idea of ireland being the drunk children of europe is laughable, the germans invented the concept of the 'Beer festival' the Scandinavians have to be prevented from drinking using eye wateringly enormous taxes. we're bad but by no means the worst.

Buzz Killington the third · 01-07-2014 10:49AM

UCDCritic wrote: »

In my experience with international people who have come to study and work in Ireland it seems their general perception of Irish people is that we are incompetent

Clearly this is their outlook... That's why there's so many European headquarters for international businesses based in Ireland!

SpaceTime · 01-07-2014 11:11AM

I do think though that the school system here has a lot to answer for in terms of people's ability to present ideas. They often only seem to learn those skills in university (assuming they partake in subjects that require them to do the odd bit of talking to groups.)

I find the Irish school system has historically attempted to bash any degree of creativity out of students and ensure that they learn things by heart and by rote rather than by thinking outside the box.

In the past it was all about corporal punishment (and I think that applies in quite a few countries too, it's not entirely unique to Ireland, the older generations of British aren't too dissimilar). Any stepping out of line and you were punished so, people became quite reluctant to talk out of turn.

These days the pressure's coming on from the CAO points race approach to education where teaching is about how to answer exam questions, not how to analyse information and exploring the subject. The result is really stark when you see 1st year Irish students vs 1st year American students in the same context in university.

The Americans are taught from about age 4 to present to groups with show-and-tell type exercises, book reports, etc etc.. it's all about communicating.
In Ireland, that's just not the case at all and I think we do tend to produce a lot of unnecessarily shy people.

I don't think it's unique to Ireland though. I recently attended a conference with people from all over Europe (technical conference). I noticed the same looking at the floor, looking shy and embarrassed behaviour from quite a few delegates from France, Germany, various parts of Northern Europe and also oddly enough many of the Spanish. Again, private schools in Spain are very comparable to Irish private schools - uniforms, stuffiness, lots of religion and too much discipline.

I think in general some European schooling systems (and the Irish one is a prime example) are over-focused on academia and leaves a lot of social development out of the mix entirely. The French system is actually very similar - obsessed with big final exams and teachers can be ridiculously disciplinarian. The worrying thing in France is that continues right into public university too where you're increasingly finding that students aren't really doing any thinking for themselves and are tending to learn formalised notes off by heart and regurgitating answers in exams. It's actually gotten to the stage in France that there are regular reports into what's gone wrong as this definitely wasn't how things were in France 30+ years ago and I think it's being reflected in the country's falling levels of enterprise and creativity in a whole load of sectors.

I just think that we tend to write off the US system as totally rubbish, but at the same time it consistently produces a huge % of the world's best entrepreneurs and communicators.

....

Also on the drinking for a bit of 'dutch courage' before chatting up the opposite sex. We educate most males and females separately and don't introduce them until university under some bizarre Catholic Church contraception policy or something.

Then we wonder why they've issues chatting each other up without 10 pints.

I remember quite a few guys and women in their college years (particularly in 1st year) who had no concept of how to deal with the opposite sex. It tended to either result in strange attitudes towards each other or people who just went ridiculously shy all of a sudden.
I think single-sex education is a totally stupid idea and it's always justified by comparing some snooty convent school with some really rough comprehensive school with loads of social problems and then concluding that the lack of the opposite gender and religious values is why they're getting better results as opposed to their location and student-filtering policies.

SpaceTime · 01-07-2014 11:32AM

Buzz Killington the third wrote: »

Clearly this is their outlook... That's why there's so many European headquarters for international businesses based in Ireland!

I actually find that some people 'bitch and moan' about whatever new place they've moved to in Europe though.

I spent time in Belgium recently and I found a lot of British, Americans and even Irish have a tendency to critique absolutely everything about the place. There's a lot of giggling at the bureaucracy, the language laws, the lack of attention to health and safety issues, the bad roads etc etc. Yet, the country has huge positives like excellent public services, very good health care, education, very very good public transport, doesn't take it self all that seriously etc etc and they tend to gloss over that.

When I was in France, the same thing the British ex-pats were notorious for complaining about absolutely everything (usually without any real justification).

I really got sick and tired of talking to some of them to the point that I started to completely avoid middle-aged British ex-pats in parts of France as I knew they'd just invariably get into a conversation about how much they hated France and how stupid everything was, yet they'd decided to move there from England and were probably from some glum northern town and were just a bit xenophobic and didn't like anything 'different'.

It would get as stupid as people deciding to wire their houses to "superior" British standards (which actually aren't superior at all .. French ones have a lot more safety requirements) Then they'd wonder why EDF wouldn't connect them to a supply and would blame it on French bureaucratic nonsense.

You'd get people complaining that the French were making no effort to speak English with them. You'd have as much chance of that happening as a French person would have of the locals in North Yorkshire deciding they'd speak French to them.

You'd then find they'd complain about absolutely everything else too ... the bread's strange, you can't get Yorkshire puddings in the supermarket, etc etc.

I also found that some of them had been there so long that they were annoyed with "French bureaucracy" which would be as strict in the UK - things like environmental regulations, recycling requirements etc. They'd be comparing England in 1982 with France in 2013.

I think the most ridiculous one I ever heard though was an English guy complaining about the font on the road signs which apparently was far inferior to the British model. (rolls eyes)

I think you have to be a little careful with those kinds of ex-pats that just point out differences as flaws all the time and refuse to even consider doing things slightly differently to how they do things at home.

conorhal · 01-07-2014 12:42PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

I do think though that the school system here has a lot to answer for in terms of people's ability to present ideas. They often only seem to learn those skills in university (assuming they partake in subjects that require them to do the odd bit of talking to groups.)

I find the Irish school system has historically attempted to bash any degree of creativity out of students and ensure that they learn things by heart and by rote rather than by thinking outside the box.

In the past it was all about corporal punishment (and I think that applies in quite a few countries too, it's not entirely unique to Ireland, the older generations of British aren't too dissimilar). Any stepping out of line and you were punished so, people became quite reluctant to talk out of turn.

These days the pressure's coming on from the CAO points race approach to education where teaching is about how to answer exam questions, not how to analyse information and exploring the subject. The result is really stark when you see 1st year Irish students vs 1st year American students in the same context in university.

The Americans are taught from about age 4 to present to groups with show-and-tell type exercises, book reports, etc etc.. it's all about communicating.
In Ireland, that's just not the case at all and I think we do tend to produce a lot of unnecessarily shy people.

I don't think it's unique to Ireland though. I recently attended a conference with people from all over Europe (technical conference). I noticed the same looking at the floor, looking shy and embarrassed behaviour from quite a few delegates from France, Germany, various parts of Northern Europe and also oddly enough many of the Spanish. Again, private schools in Spain are very comparable to Irish private schools - uniforms, stuffiness, lots of religion and too much discipline.

I think in general some European schooling systems (and the Irish one is a prime example) are over-focused on academia and leaves a lot of social development out of the mix entirely. The French system is actually very similar - obsessed with big final exams and teachers can be ridiculously disciplinarian. The worrying thing in France is that continues right into public university too where you're increasingly finding that students aren't really doing any thinking for themselves and are tending to learn formalised notes off by heart and regurgitating answers in exams. It's actually gotten to the stage in France that there are regular reports into what's gone wrong as this definitely wasn't how things were in France 30+ years ago and I think it's being reflected in the country's falling levels of enterprise and creativity in a whole load of sectors.

I just think that we tend to write off the US system as totally rubbish, but at the same time it consistently produces a huge % of the world's best entrepreneurs and communicators.

....

Also on the drinking for a bit of 'dutch courage' before chatting up the opposite sex. We educate most males and females separately and don't introduce them until university under some bizarre Catholic Church contraception policy or something.

Then we wonder why they've issues chatting each other up without 10 pints.

I remember quite a few guys and women in their college years (particularly in 1st year) who had no concept of how to deal with the opposite sex. It tended to either result in strange attitudes towards each other or people who just went ridiculously shy all of a sudden.
I think single-sex education is a totally stupid idea and it's always justified by comparing some snooty convent school with some really rough comprehensive school with loads of social problems and then concluding that the lack of the opposite gender and religious values is why they're getting better results as opposed to their location and student-filtering policies.

What an absolute load of blather.
The 'rote learning is the problem' meme sort of ignores the fact that rote learning doesn't seem to have stoped previous generations being the most inovative of any period of history from the industrial revolution untill the 1980's.
The problem is not rote learning, which is useful, the problem is the shallow standard of education that sets the bar too low for outstanding students.

As that that shoite about single sex schools, more 'recieved wisdom' that's a load of old bollox. 20% if students are educated in a single sex enviornment, so what about the other 80%?
And you also seem to assume that it's still 1957 or something. You might go to a single sex school, but outside school interaction is highly mixed these days.

Muise... · 01-07-2014 01:02PM

conorhal wrote: »

What an absolute load of blather.
The 'rote learning is the problem' meme sort of ignores the fact that rote learning doesn't seem to have stoped previous generations being the most inovative of any period of history from the industrial revolution untill the 1980's.
The problem is not rote learning, which is useful, the problem is the shallow standard of education that sets the bar too low for outstanding students.

Af that that shoite about single sex schools, more 'recieved wisdom' that's a load of old bollox. 20% if students are educated in a single sex enviornment, so what about the other 80%?
And you also seem to assume that it's still 1957 or something. You might go to a single sex school, but outside school interaction is highly mixed these days.

+1

There is no box. If creativity is so easily repressed by the school system, and can't find an way to express itself, perhaps it wasn't really creative in the first place.

SpaceTime · 01-07-2014 01:19PM

This is the one BIG criticism I have of Ireland. The education system cannot be criticised or compared to anywhere else because you get told to shut up and that your observations are a load of old blather.

Sure change nothing, it's all grand!

Vive le status quo!

That's to me what sums up the issues that Ireland actually does have : health, education, unaccountable and pointless local government and lack of political transparency.

You also can't really reform consultants fees, legal fees etc

All sacred cows.

Muise... · 01-07-2014 01:24PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

This is the one BIG criticism I have of Ireland. The education system cannot be criticised or compared to anywhere else because you get told to shut up and that your observations are a load of old blather.

Of course it can be criticised. I just disagree with your criticisms. (Learnt how to do that in school.

)

SpaceTime · 01-07-2014 01:29PM

Muise... wrote: »

Of course it can be criticised. I just disagree with your criticisms. (Learnt how to do that in school. )

Calling it blather is just polite terminology for 'shut up'.

That's not what I'd call good debating skills but anyway...

I've better things to be doing than posting blather on AH.

Muise... · 01-07-2014 01:32PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

Calling it blather is just polite terminology for 'shut up'.

That's not what I'd call good debating skills but anyway...

I've better things to be doing than posting blather on AH.

I never said blather...

SpaceTime · 01-07-2014 01:34PM

Muise... wrote: »

I never said blather...

The other poster did... I'm posting on a mobile so excuse the lack of scrolling and quoting ability!

conorhal · 01-07-2014 02:16PM

Muise... wrote: »

+1

There is no box. If creativity is so easily repressed by the school system, and can't find an way to express itself, perhaps it wasn't really creative in the first place.

++1

I suspect that there are quite a lot of parents out there that would prefer to blame the school system rather then the fact that their precious little flower who is so uinque and special ....is in fact a dunce.

conorhal · 01-07-2014 02:17PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

Calling it blather is just polite terminology for 'shut up'.

That's not what I'd call good debating skills but anyway...

I've better things to be doing than posting blather on AH.

I called it blather, because it IS blather, and I went on to point out why I think so. Perhaps you'd like to address those two points as opposed to your 'I'm taking my ball and going home' debating skills.
Debate is fine, so is challenging the system, but bar stool wisdom taken as fact and unsubstantiated is just... well.. blather...

SpaceTime · 01-07-2014 02:36PM

conorhal wrote: »

I called it blather, because it IS blather, and I went on to point out why I think so. Perhaps you'd like to address those two points as opposed to your 'I'm taking my ball and going home' debating skills.
Debate is fine, so is challenging the system, but bar stool wisdom taken as fact and unsubstantiated is just... well.. blather...

It's based on observation of Irish university students and business people vs their international (and particularly North American) counterparts in the same situations.

Their communication skills are often very, very poor in comparison.

I regularly encounter Irish adults who cannot make a simple, no stress presentation to a small group of colleagues without nearly having a heart attack.

I find that students at college level are often far too shy and nervous about making a point.

That is in stark contrast to their American counterparts who are all educated to present. They're not skills you just don't have because of your genes. You have to learn them and get over the stage fright and learn how to be confident about putting your ideas forward.

I've personal experience of the Irish, US and French education systems.

The Irish third level system is excellent and very open to ideas, discussion and expression. The secondary system simply isn't. The whole points race approach and learn to the exam system has removed any serious depth from subjects. We used to read science experiments rather than doing them as the teacher thought it was a waste of time to use labs for example!

The US system was all about research and presentation. You really learn good analytical skills and arrive in university able to perform very well. The downside over there is they don't fund their third level system so students often never make it to that far.

The French system is increasingly obcessed with regurgitation of notes. It's not too dissimilar to the Irish one other than the schools are far more liberal.
The result though is that French students often won't debate at all and look for an official answer for everything.

All I'm saying is that school plays an enormous role in forming characters. The system is clearly not helping people to gain the kinds of skills that can make or break a career.

Do a shoite presentation to a multinational and you may not get an opportunity to make a second one.

The Irish system also gives very little opportunity to do things that might be good for development of life skills and abilities to be confident.

Unlike both the US and France there were no drama classes, no real sports facilities ( you don't like GAA tough)

We even has a choice in junior cert here : art or honours maths but not both!
Kinda sent the message art = for thickos.

Doesn't really consider the kid who becomes the ace games developer combining arts and science ...

Fortheloveosod · 01-07-2014 03:45PM

conorhal wrote: »

You seem to be mistaking neurotic for Catholic guilt. As for Catholic guilt, I honestly don't know anybody under 40 who even knows what that means (and a couple of people that could actually use some).

That's how my friends and I always joked about Catholic guilt, and as many generations as I know have had the same experience, only I mostly conquered mine and am left with the remains I've mentioned.

thegreatgonzo wrote: »

I'm sorry but I have no idea what you are on about.

Makes perfect sense to me or I wouldn't say it. You must have misunderstood something in it or you wouldn't have said this, so ask me. Or do you mean your experience wasn't the same?

As for the rest of the thread, I mostly agree with SpaceTime, but here's some stuff to consider. I'm attending college in New York, or I was until I decided I really don't care for America. So I have some understanding of the American system as well. It's pretty terrible but there is absolutely more focus on communication. Now one of the last courses I did was actually on the American school system (before which my plan was to teach here), and its real problem is it's funded by town or city taxes (as opposed to the fœderal level), obviously before they cut funding near entirely for the third level. So, if you live in a poor town, your education will be rubbish. But even in affluent places, teaching to the test is paramount, mandated by the government, so you get a lot of rote learning in America as well, but still more focus on interpersonal activities.

CrabRevolution · 01-07-2014 03:52PM

The 'single sex schools are the cause of all our ills' excuse is so ridiculous I dont know how anyone still tries to peddle it. Cant give any info on the rest of the country but in Meath for every single sex school there are 4 or 5 mixed ones, and any schools in Kildare/Offaly/Westmeath that have pupils from Meath are also mixed. The vast majority of students go to mixed schools.

From the looks of it Dublin has a lot more schools which would be single sex, so many Dubs probably think this applies to the country as a whole.

Fortheloveosod · 01-07-2014 03:58PM

CrabRevolution wrote: »

From the looks of it Dublin has a lot more schools which would be single sex, so many Dubs probably think this applies to the country as a whole.

That actually makes a lot of sense. I was wondering why'd so many people say that about single-sex schools. You'd generally assume Dublin's on the more progressive side and it being so urban and generally more internationally aware given the tourism, and the fact that most international and national forms of entertainment come out of Dublin if they come from Ireland. I didn't know Dublin had so many single-sex schools. That's really interesting.

SpaceTime · 01-07-2014 04:10PM

CrabRevolution wrote: »

The 'single sex schools are the cause of all our ills' excuse is so ridiculous I dont know how anyone still tries to peddle it. Cant give any info on the rest of the country but in Meath for every single sex school there are 4 or 5 mixed ones, and any schools in Kildare/Offaly/Westmeath that have pupils from Meath are also mixed. The vast majority of students go to mixed schools.

From the looks of it Dublin has a lot more schools which would be single sex, so many Dubs probably think this applies to the country as a whole.

To be fair, single sex schools are an absolutely bizzare concept. I'm more baffled by the way people defend them.

There are some remaining in the UK but they're very much dominant in many areas Ireland. In most of the developed world they're pretty much non existent.

If someone were to suggest single sex universities or workplaces they'd be considered some kind of mad 19th century sexist.

But, such social norms seem to exempt the Irish school system...

We've a lot of victorianism alive and well in Ireland, especially in anything run by church organisations for the state.

thegreatgonzo · 01-07-2014 04:22PM

Fortheloveosod wrote: »

That's how my friends and I always joked about Catholic guilt, and as many generations as I know have had the same experience, only I mostly conquered mine and am left with the remains I've mentioned.

Makes perfect sense to me or I wouldn't say it. You must have misunderstood something in it or you wouldn't have said this, so ask me. Or do you mean your experience wasn't the same?

.

From time to time I experience the feeling of remorse, say I've hurt someone's feelings. Generally whenever I feel I should have acted like a better person. I don't dwell on it, I'm human and I make mistakes.
I've probably misunderstood your post because for the life of me I don't know where Catholic guilt comes into you playing computer games.

Muise... · 01-07-2014 06:11PM

conorhal wrote: »

++1

I suspect that there are quite a lot of parents out there that would prefer to blame the school system rather then the fact that their precious little flower who is so uinque and special ....is in fact a dunce.

LOL! Or they set up a Steiner-Waldorf school to turn all that "creativity" into strictly controlled expressions in 100% natural fibres.

Irish People Have Low Self Esteem

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