Golf Stats Book: Every Shot Counts by Mark Broadie

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Go through your game again. Trust me Adam Scott's long game will bring you to scratch, Phil Mickelson's short game won't.

Phil Mickelson hits 60% FIR, 67% GIR, 62% Scrambling & 29.04 Putts
Adam Scott hits 64% FIR, 68% GIR, 61% Scrambling & 28.83 Putts
so I dont see your point, any of their stats would improve your game. Even with Scotts long game you are going to have to get up and down 32% of the time.


Joe Durant (who!) hit 75% FIR(#1) & 68% GIR(24th)
Graham DaLaet hits 64% FIR (75th) & 72% GIR (#1)


Who would you rather be?



If you are hitting the ball OOB or into a forest then MY long game will lower your score.

No one hits 100% FIR or FIR.

GreeBo wrote: »

Because there are no points given out for GIR, they are not counted on the card and dont matter a damn.

Does missing a green increase your score by one?

It might not neccesarily increase your score by one but it certainly increases your chances in my opinion, give me a 2 putt for par rather than an up an down any day.

kieran. wrote: »

It might not neccesarily increase your score by one but it certainly increases your chances in my opinion, give me a 2 putt for par rather than an up an down any day.

Only if you have a poor short game though.
I get up and down probably as often as I two putt (assuming my up and down isn't from behind a tree, etc)
This is my point, missing a GIR and missing a FIR are only relevant if they leave you in a position where you cant then go for the green/pin.

Missing a putt costs you a shot, end of.

GreeBo wrote: »

Only if you have a poor short game though.
I get up and down probably as often as I two putt (assuming my up and down isn't from behind a tree, etc)
This is my point, missing a GIR and missing a FIR are only relevant if they leave you in a position where you cant then go for the green/pin.

Missing a putt costs you a shot, end of.

Would you expect to score the same in a round that you missed every green as in a round where you hit every green so?

Would you prefer to be buried in 4 inch rough 10 yards from the pin or on the green 30 feet away?

GreeBo wrote: »

Everytime you miss a putt you have to take another putt that you wouldnt have taken had you holed the putt.
Miss a FIR or GIR and, unless you are in trouble, it doesnt really matter.

Generally 94.44% of the time ( that's 17 times outta 18 holes folks ) I still have to play another shot after I hole a putt.
When I hole a putt, it also counts just as a missed one does, just as each drive does.
Every shot counts.... could possibly be a good name for a book.

Your are using minute data to back up your points on here (yet you tell others not to talk in extremes)......
Yes, 1 missed fairway doesn't end in disaster all the time, and pars or birdies can be made from a missed GIR.
But a round, weekend, month, year, lifetime of missed fairways and greens will certainly add up.

You seem to be using and referencing an extreme case yourself an awful lot here where you only hit 1 green yet you had a great score.
Why not try to miss every GIR if this is your logic?
Maybe you are.... Maybe you're aiming to miss every greens and are just getting 4,5,6,7 unlucky bounces onto the green in the rest of your rounds??

I seem to recall a similar type discussion on here where you tried to convince everyone that we can putt like a pro.
If you believe that, and I recall your argument was that there was no reason why we can't easily putt like a pro THEN according to your good self and by a process of elimination.... the long game counts an awful lot and is truly the difference between each level of golf.

PARlance wrote: »

Generally 94.44% of the time ( that's 17 times outta 18 holes folks ) I still have to play another shot after I hole a putt.
When I hole a putt, it also counts just as a missed one does, just as each drive does.
Every shot counts.... could possibly be a good name for a book.

Your are using minute data to back up your points on here (yet you tell others not to talk in extremes)......
Yes, 1 missed fairway doesn't end in disaster all the time, and pars or birdies can be made from a missed GIR.
But a round, weekend, month, year, lifetime of missed fairways and greens will certainly add up.

You seem to be using and referencing an extreme case yourself an awful lot here where you only hit 1 green yet you had a great score.
Why not try to miss every GIR if this is your logic?
Maybe you are.... Maybe you're aiming to miss every greens and are just getting 4,5,6,7 unlucky bounces onto the green in the rest of your rounds??

I seem to recall a similar type discussion on here where you tried to convince everyone that we can putt like a pro.
If you believe that, and I recall your argument was that there was no reason why we can't easily putt like a pro THEN according to your good self and by a process of elimination.... the long game counts an awful lot and is truly the difference between each level of golf.

I think you've managed to totally miss my point.
On a single hole, if you miss your first putt you have to take a second putt. Thats 1 more shot than if you had holed the first putt.
On the same hole, if you missed the fairway that doesnt add one more shot than if you had hit the fairway (same for GIR) UNLESS you are in trouble.

I referenced the 1 GIR round once I believe, Im not at all using it to prove anything.

We *can* all putt like a pro, if we did our scores would be far lower.
If you could drive like a pro (FIR %) your score wouldnt be that much better than it is today (unless you are constantly putting yourself in trouble off the tee)

ShivasIrons wrote: »

This point you make here counters your whole argument, i.e. missing a green or a fairway is only relevant if you can't go for a green or pin.

This is the whole reason why the long game matters more and is more important, poor long game shots mean recovery is difficult and lead to multiple dropped shots i.e. water hazard, OB, behind trees, unplayable etc and positions where it's difficult to get up and down, even the pros only get up and down at best 2 out of 3 times.

Whereas a missed putt is only one shot gone, it's that finality of the missed putt that strikes golfers.

For your score it's not how you putt, it's where you putt from that matters.

Again, it only matter if your long game is bad enough. It doesn't need to be as good as a pro, it just needs to be good enough to not have you in trouble. As soon as you reach that point then improving your FIR % isnt going to do much for your score, when compared to improving your scrambling or lowering your putts per round.

A missed putt is one shot gone, a missed GIR or FIR isnt necessarily one shot gone. The putt ALWAYS is.

denisoc16 wrote: »

All I know is that if I hit the fairway I have a better chance of hitting the green, therefore I have a better chance of getting a birdie, therefore I score better.

If I miss the fairway I will most likely have to play a longer iron to the green because my drive will not have run out as much as if it had done had I hit the the fairway. So I am further back, hitting a longer iron, from a worse lie in the rough so my chances of hitting the green are lessened. Therefore my birdie opportunities are lessened. Therefore I will score worse.

Yes, maybe there will be days where I will get up & down from everywhere but that is the exception rather than the rule.

I know I have a better chance of making par by 2 putting than by getting up & down. And I definitely have a better chance of getting birdies by 1 putting than chipping in.

I totally agree with this however I think that for higher handicaps with unfixable swing flaws due to time constraint would be better served practicing short game than long as you are going to miss greens, you are going to miss fairways and you are going to have 50 feet putts.

It would be great to improve my long game but at the moment I can see the greatest help for me would be improving my pitching/chipping around the greens because invariably I only hit 4 greens per round.

The problem with all stats and it was mentioned already we would all take 10 foot from the pin on the fringe rather than a GIR. I know for myself my score is effected most on how i drive the ball. If i am hitting it long and straight then i will score well even if the short game if a bit off.
Obvious reason is that i am hitting in a shorter club so even if i miss the green a good % will be close on the fringe.

The basis for Broadie ideals is that the shorter you are off the tee the more trouble you will find along the way makes perfect sense to me. The difference in what generally goes wrong using a 5 iron or 9 iron is huge.

A champagne scramble where you pick the best drive the scoring is always 10 to 15 points better than a regular 4 person team event.

mike12 wrote: »

The problem with all stats and it was mentioned already we would all take 10 foot from the pin on the fringe rather than a GIR. I know for myself my score is effected most on how i drive the ball. If i am hitting it long and straight then i will score well even if the short game if a bit off.
Obvious reason is that i am hitting in a shorter club so even if i miss the green a good % will be close on the fringe.

The basis for Broadie ideals is that the shorter you are off the tee the more trouble you will find along the way makes perfect sense to me. The difference in what generally goes wrong using a 5 iron or 9 iron is huge.

A champagne scramble where you pick the best drive the scoring is always 10 to 15 points better than a regular 4 person team event.

In terms of the champagne scramble, yes of course you are right but equally if you picked the best putt at the other end(if it was possible) the score would be better again.

I think what you are saying for you as a low handicapper is very true in terms of your driving etc and I would agree that my best scoring has come when I had the driver working well but for me to get to the level I am at(not great) from shooting around 100 constantly to shooting between 87-93 constantly, the big improvement has been my short game.

Maybe the next step is long game:rolleyes:

ssbob wrote: »

In terms of the champagne scramble, yes of course you are right but equally if you picked the best putt at the other end(if it was possible) the score would be better again.

No - and this is where a champagne scramble is important - a 30ft putt sunk in a texas scramble is a fluke (getting it to withing 6 inches is a skill, if it drops its just good luck). A drives that's 30 yds longer and straighter is a matter of skill.

Someone could outdrive you by 30 yds on EVERY hole but they'r not going to get down in less shots than you from 30 ft on EVERY putt.

ssbob wrote: »

I totally agree with this however I think that for higher handicaps with unfixable swing flaws due to time constraint would be better served practicing short game than long as you are going to miss greens, you are going to miss fairways and you are going to have 50 feet putts.

It would be great to improve my long game but at the moment I can see the greatest help for me would be improving my pitching/chipping around the greens because invariably I only hit 4 greens per round.

I would disagree with this
You said earlier you lose about 1 ball per round...you need to address that.
Thats an immediate 2 shots per round, effectively for free.

There are no such thing as unfixable flaws, if you have flaws, get them fixed.

Get your long game and your approach game "good enough" and then work like bejayzus on your shortgame.
Become one of those annoying old fellas who tink it down the middle 200yrds and then clean up from 50yards every damn time.

The more I think about this, the more sense it makes.

Try this virtual experiment:

Take a typical par 4 on your home course, say it's 400 yds:

Take 4 golfers: a pro of your choice, a low, mid and high handicapper:

Each one gets to play the hole 200 times: 100 times from with a drive that ends up 100 yds from the pin in the centre of the fairway and 100 times from the rough 80 yds further back. Everyone of them will score better, on average, with the better drive. Sure, the pro will do better from the bad drive than the high handicapper from the good one but their score will, on average, be better from the good drive.

The implication is that if you want to improve your score - on average - improve your driving - length and accuracy. Simple as that, isn't it?

moycullen14 wrote: »

Fascinating discussion.

I was wondering when someone would bring up champagne scrambles because that's the one competition you play where one aspect of your game is artificially improved.

I play off 9, wouldn't be long at all but I have a better than average short game - for my handicap. I reckon I'm a 12 long game, 6 short game.

When I score well, my short game is usually very good. In other words, my score is directly proportional to the 'quality' of my short game. So, short game is more important, right? Well, no, and this is where the scramble comes in.

My usual scramble partner is 20-40 yds longer than me off the tee so in a scramble I am playing with a much improved long game and the effect on my score is dramatic : 4 to 8 shots. Now at least half of that is down to having more drives to choose from, the other half is the improved quality of the individual drive. Nothing I could do with my short game will improve my handicap - my quality as a golfer but an improved long game would certainly drive down my handicap.

It's like Weather and Climate. Climate is long run and Weather is the deviation from it. A good long game determines your average, long-term scoring - your handicap. Short game measures the deviation from it - your score on a given day.

One of the best posts so far. As long as you are a average Putter and chipper there is very little improvment to be gained. I've learned this the hard way i tried to turn myself from a guy who used to chip to the 6 feet and make a % of the putts to totally ruining my short game by trying to improve at it. I had gotten down to 7.6.
Looking back now i used to hit a lot of greens and my misses were just off a lot of the time so i was only really chipping 4/5 times a round, not counting putter from the fringe. Was shooting in the 80's on a regular basis best round was 74.

By deciding to work so hard on my short game my long game suffered so i ended up missing more greens, drills i was doing for my chipping effected my long game swing. The chipping practice was really helping and really only this year i have decided anywhere on the green when i miss and get down in 3 will do even if it means putting thru 6 foot of fringe.
I'm now off 13 now 5 years later deciding that my short game was going to stop me from getting to 5 and trying to fix it.

Trying to get back to 9 and the way i will do it is get down in 3 from inside 100 yards. That will be 4 pars on par 5's. Hit 5/6 greens another 5 pars get down in no worse than 3 when i miss a green. Easy:D.