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Equality, sexism, feminism, etc. *Read Mod Note in 1st Post**

  • 23-06-2014 05:11PM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Hey folks,

    I realise I'm taking my life in my hands by raising this, but it's probably safer to do it here than Twitter, where people are routinely garrotted for questioning any of the feminist received wisdom.

    I'll not bother with a long post about it, but a few examples come to mind recently of companies/governments/men coming under pressure from feminist activists (online and in print media) for perpetuating the disproportionately male balance or bias in various fields:
    • Gender quotas in nominations for political parties*
    • No women speakers at the opening of the Rosie Hackett Bridge
    • Under-representation of women in the IT industry
    • World Cup TV coverage panel—I think it was a station in either Finland or Sweden which was lauded for having a majority of women on its panel, with the comparison drawn against RTÉ, which had a bunch of old men
    • Women lead characters in computer games! There was some controversy when a gaming company said that they weren't going to add a woman lead character because it was too much work
    • "Every day sexism" in language and other areas

    *This is a bigger issue which would probably take up a separate thread

    I'm quite aware that there are still outstanding issues in relation to gender equality (pay parity), women's rights (abortion), sexist culture, etc., and I fully support moves towards fixing those and other issues. And some of the things that I listed above are genuine problems—I'm just listing them all off the top of my head.

    I do cringe a little though when certain issues are raised.
    • Am I just being a jerk because I'm a privileged middle-class white male, who doesn't have to deal with this stuff daily?
    • Should there really be exact 50/50 representation for every single thing?
    • Is it not okay that some things are skewed more in one direction, and others are skewed more in another?
    • Should there be 50% men on any panel where the show is geared towards females?
    • What about representation of minorities—should every panel contain at least one female, black, gay, traveller for maximum equality?



    MOD NOTE:
    El Guapo! wrote: »
    I've had to delete a truck load of crap in this thread already. You're all welcome to discuss the topic at hand but do not post any sexist "jokes", and keep any anti-women or anti-men bile to yourselves please. You all know where the line is. Cross it and you will receive a ban. Fair warning.


«134567

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Think your looking for more than equal.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,277 ✭✭✭✭How Soon Is Now


    Bullet points and all I like your style op :-).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,564 ✭✭✭✭whiskeyman


    Dave! wrote: »
      Is it not okay that some things are skewed more in one direction,

    There's a lot of sharp, rusty things that should be more skewed in One Direction...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,067 ✭✭✭Ficheall


    What's your point, OP?

    Aside from stirring...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,866 ✭✭✭Fat Christy


    Your post has just made my head hurt. Why post in AHers, why? :(


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    This thread is going better than expected! :D

    There does be some decent discussions in AH, I'm sure some of those peeps will be along soon to raise the level of discourse...


  • Posts: 25,909 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    We must also work towards a situation where there's an equal gender split of people sleeping on the street, dying in wars and in prison. If it's difficult to achieve maybe some mandatory gender reassignment surgery could be the answer?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,277 ✭✭✭✭How Soon Is Now


    Your post has just made my head hurt. Why post in AHers, why? :(

    His post made me think though....

    How come you never see any female black gay travellers?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    Why Dave! why?!

    I can't think of anyone on AH who defends that academic nitpicking. I can think of many who love getting a chance to get a dig in at teh wimminz over it because some girls were mean/bitches/didn't fcuk them.

    :mad:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,866 ✭✭✭Fat Christy


    3......2.......1......Let the gender war commence.

    Also Dave, there's just far too many points to cover in your OP.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    3......2.......1......Let the gender war commence.

    Also Dave, there's just far too many points to cover in your OP.

    Not really, they're mostly examples and general points/questions to frame any discussion!


  • Posts: 81,308 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Amaris Breezy Cemetery


    Gender quotas are gender neutral and were voted against by female TDs in a survey
    The quota debate sprang to public consciousness in August 2010 when an article in the Irish Times newspaper reported the findings of a survey which showed that a majority of female TDs were against quotas as a means of increasing women’s political representation. The report sparked a lively public debate. In September 2010, the debate continued at a conference in University College Cork which engaged the interest of academics, citizens and political representatives, from which the ‘5050 Group’ emerged. This group set about campaigning for the introduction of legislative quotas in Irish elections, based on the recommendations of the aforementioned parliamentary committees.
    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2013/11/29/ireland-serves-as-an-example-for-the-way-in-which-gender-quotas-can-be-implemented-in-national-parliaments/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    Dave! wrote: »
    • Gender quotas in nominations for political parties*
    • No women speakers at the opening of the Rosie Hackett Bridge
    • Under-representation of women in the IT industry
    • World Cup TV coverage panel—I think it was a station in either Finland or Sweden which was lauded for having a majority of women on its panel, with the comparison drawn against RTÉ, which had a bunch of old men
    • Women lead characters in computer games! There was some controversy when a gaming company said that they weren't going to add a woman lead character because it was too much work
    • "Every day sexism" in language and other areas


    • I don't agree with gender quotas. How is that fair or democratic? I'm perfectly in favour of more female politicians but they should be nominated because of their ability not because of their vagina. It's positive discrimination.
    • First I've heard of it but the bridge is named after a woman.
    • I don't understand how men are to blame for this? Wasn't even aware it was an issue.
    • I'd have no problem with female pundits provided they know what they're talking about and they don't replace Giles/Dunphy/Brady. I can love without the rest.
    • Why are they too much work? Is it getting the boobs to jiggle just right? From my own experience most gamers I know are men and don't wouldn't want to play as a woman which is a separate issue.
    • Huh?
    Dave! wrote: »
    • Am I just being a jerk because I'm a privileged middle-class white male, who doesn't have to deal with this stuff daily?
    • Should there really be exact 50/50 representation for every single thing?
    • Is it not okay that some things are skewed more in one direction, and others are skewed more in another?
    • Should there be 50% men on any panel where the show is geared towards females?
    • What about representation of minorities—should every panel contain at least one female, black, gay, traveller for maximum equality?

    • I'm also a a privileged middle-class white male so I can't really answer that
    • No.
    • Yes.
    • Jeremy Clarkson on Women's Hour; YES PLEASE
    • Exactly. Where do you draw the line and why should women get preferential treatment over ethnic minority males.
    I don't know if that's what you wanted …


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,067 ✭✭✭Ficheall


    Muise... wrote: »
    I can think of many who love getting a chance to get a dig in at teh wimminz over it because some girls were mean/bitches/didn't fcuk them.
    Best to get your own digs in first then, eh?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭Arthur Beesley


    Yeah, we should force women into IT.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭Arthur Beesley


    Dave! wrote: »
    Hey folks,

    I realise I'm taking my life in my hands by raising this, but it's probably safer to do it here than Twitter, where people are routinely garrotted for questioning any of the feminist received wisdom.

    I'll not bother with a long post about it, but a few examples come to mind recently of companies/governments/men coming under pressure from feminist activists (online and in print media) for perpetuating the disproportionately male balance or bias in various fields:
    • Gender quotas in nominations for political parties*
    • No women speakers at the opening of the Rosie Hackett Bridge
    • Under-representation of women in the IT industry
    • World Cup TV coverage panel—I think it was a station in either Finland or Sweden which was lauded for having a majority of women on its panel, with the comparison drawn against RTÉ, which had a bunch of old men
    • Women lead characters in computer games! There was some controversy when a gaming company said that they weren't going to add a woman lead character because it was too much work
    • "Every day sexism" in language and other areas
    *This is a bigger issue which would probably take up a separate thread

    I'm quite aware that there are still outstanding issues in relation to gender equality (pay parity), women's rights (abortion), sexist culture, etc., and I fully support moves towards fixing those and other issues. And some of the things that I listed above are genuine problems—I'm just listing them all off the top of my head.

    I do cringe a little though when certain issues are raised.
    • Am I just being a jerk because I'm a privileged middle-class white male, who doesn't have to deal with this stuff daily?
    • Should there really be exact 50/50 representation for every single thing?
    • Is it not okay that some things are skewed more in one direction, and others are skewed more in another?
    • Should there be 50% men on any panel where the show is geared towards females?
    • What about representation of minorities—should every panel contain at least one female, black, gay, traveller for maximum equality?
    Do we have quotas for male primary school teachers yet?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    Yeah, we should force women into IT.

    Yeh because it worked out really well in The IT Crowd :D

    http://f1.thejournal.ie/media/2013/09/the-internet-the-it-crowd-27191791-500-230.gif


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Muise... wrote: »
    Why Dave! why?!

    I can't think of anyone on AH who defends that academic nitpicking. I can think of many who love getting a chance to get a dig in at teh wimminz over it because some girls were mean/bitches/didn't fcuk them.

    :mad:

    There is loads of it on Twitter, seriously! You'd be hard pressed to find someone who voices an opposing opinion to it. If they do, they get "outed" as a misogynist and have their name dragged through the mud. Example that comes to mind is Jeff Atwood wrote this pretty benign and well-intentioned blog post, and was subsequently destroyed on Twitter by Shanley Kane (account is protected now) for... I can't even remember what.

    It's not just some fringe on Twitter though, there are plenty of columnists in mainstream media outlets who routinely post opinions about this stuff. Una Mullally is pretty vocal about this kind of stuff. One example from her that comes to mind is when the Nigerian schoolgirls were kidnapped by Boko Haram, she had an article in the Irish Times attributing the lack of media coverage of the kidnappings to the latent misogyny of Western society—implying that if it were boys who were kidnapped, that the coverage would be greater. But of course there were 50 schoolboys kidnapped earlier this year also, and there was little or no media coverage of that either.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,949 ✭✭✭A Primal Nut


    Dave! wrote: »
    [*]World Cup TV coverage panel—I think it was a station in either Finland or Sweden which was lauded for having a majority of women on its panel, with the comparison drawn against RTÉ, which had a bunch of old men

    Were they hot in skimpy clothing - if so does that really further the feminist cause? Women on sports shows aren't usually selected for their knowledge of sports.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭chughes


    His post made me think though....

    How come you never see any female black gay travellers?
    Howya bwana.....


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,314 ✭✭✭caustic 1


    I know if RTE had some wimmenz on their panel for the world cup they wouldn't need as much make up as those gob****es pundits they have on.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,310 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Dave! wrote: »
    Should there really be exact 50/50 representation for every single thing?
    Get 50% of people colecting bins, sweeping streets, all the crappy jobs that women seem to avoid; put women into those jobs, and then come back to be about equality, etc....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,450 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    Mod:Locking this for a min. Bear with me folks.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,450 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    I've had to delete a truck load of crap in this thread already. You're all welcome to discuss the topic at hand but do not post any sexist "jokes", and keep any anti-women or anti-men bile to yourselves please. You all know where the line is. Cross it and you will receive a ban. Fair warning.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,189 ✭✭✭✭kowloon




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    Dave! wrote: »
    There is loads of it on Twitter, seriously! You'd be hard pressed to find someone who voices an opposing opinion to it. If they do, they get "outed" as a misogynist and have their name dragged through the mud. Example that comes to mind is Jeff Atwood wrote this pretty benign and well-intentioned blog post, and was subsequently destroyed on Twitter by Shanley Kane (account is protected now) for... I can't even remember what.

    It's not just some fringe on Twitter though, there are plenty of columnists in mainstream media outlets who routinely post opinions about this stuff. Una Mullally is pretty vocal about this kind of stuff. One example from her that comes to mind is when the Nigerian schoolgirls were kidnapped by Boko Haram, she had an article in the Irish Times attributing the lack of media coverage of the kidnappings to the latent misogyny of Western society—implying that if it were boys who were kidnapped, that the coverage would be greater. But of course there were 50 schoolboys kidnapped earlier this year also, and there was little or no media coverage of that either.

    I've an idea Dave! If Twitter is a scary hairy nest of harpies, why not write a stern letter to Sir at the Irish Times to point out Mullally's mistake/deliberate skewing of facts to suit her agenda. I look forward to reading it.

    Yours etc.,

    Muise...
    The Headdesk,
    AH


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,189 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    My post above makes no sense now after the thread was cleaned up :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭e_e


    Dave! wrote: »
    There was some controversy when a gaming company said that they weren't going to add a woman lead character because it was too much work
    In fairness, that was an absolutely ridiculous excuse and anything that pisses off sexist male gamers is a plus in my eyes. I do love how so many of them pull out the "but I can't relate to a woman!" card yet feel completely comfortable playing as sociopathic killers in video games. Really speaks volumes to me.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,189 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    e_e wrote: »
    In fairness, that was an absolutely ridiculous excuse and anything that pisses off sexist male gamers is a plus in my eyes. I do love how so many of them pull out the "but I can't relate to a woman!" card yet feel completely comfortable playing as sociopathic killers in video games. Really speaks volumes to me.

    Pure rubbish, a metal bra is the only armour you need in a sword fight. This is pretty much common knowledge.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,471 ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    e_e wrote: »
    In fairness, that was an absolutely ridiculous excuse and anything that pisses off sexist male gamers is a plus in my eyes. I do love how so many of them pull out the "but I can't relate to a woman!" card yet feel completely comfortable playing as sociopathic killers in video games. Really speaks volumes to me.

    I never understand that point. If it's a guy using magic powers to save the world from demons or whatever then it's fine. Change the character's gender and then they become unrelateable. Also, female Shepard for the win.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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