Megathread: Discussion on Vets and Juniors in the A3 category

Chips Lovell · 17-06-2014 08:42AM

fortis wrote: »

Getting to a2 wasn't the point, its implementing a fair points system, that's the point.

The only purpose of the points system outside of A1, where it does operate as some sort of de facto national ranking, is determining who should go up or down. If all vets got promoted, then the top ranked A3 riders at the end of the year would be everyone who finished on 14 points.

fortis · 17-06-2014 08:59AM

Oscar Gateaux wrote: »

The only purpose of the points system outside of A1, where it does operate as some sort of de facto national ranking, is determining who should go up or down. If all vets got promoted, then the top ranked A3 riders at the end of the year would be everyone who finished on 14 points.

I don't understand what point you are making there tbh

Anyways not all vet riders would get promoted. Only the ones who earn 15 points! The same as anyone else.

So yea I agree, the only purpose of the points system is to determine who goes up/down. Same as any points system in any sport. That's not happening at the moment however.

On a thread of what I was saying earlier, if you looked at the current rankings, if you moved everyone on 8 points or more up to A3, that would be 64 riders. Out of 1093 that hold an A3 license! If you took the cutoff point at 5 points that would be 142. SO not huge number, but enough to make a small difference in A2

And actually just looking at the table makes you realise how big a problem it is. There are actually only 300 riders with any kind of points at all. It makes you realise that the chance of naturally moving any sizeable number up to the next category is minimal. Especially when the current convoluted system means the same guys can keep gathering points at the top. There is no trickle down effect at all. Well very little.

Chips Lovell · 17-06-2014 09:11AM

You're the one who said that upgrades to A2 aren't the issue. So if upgrades aren't the issue, what is?

fortis · 17-06-2014 09:21AM

Oscar Gateaux wrote: »

You're the one who said that upgrades to A2 aren't the issue. So if upgrades aren't the issue, what is?

I Think it's pretty clear what the issue is (and I don't recall saying that upgrades to A2 aren't an issue) namely

"So yea I agree, the only purpose of the points system is to determine who goes up/down. Same as any points system in any sport. That's not happening at the moment however."

I don't think any self respecting decent cyclist would have a problem with being promoted to a higher category upon reaching the threshold. But some do.

But anyways as plastik said, anyone who has a problem with that or who drops back from a higher cat over the winter just because they can because of some convoluted rule is a little pathetic. Most everyone knows who they are at this stage. They are not covering themselves in glory. Maybe in their own eyes.

Chips Lovell · 17-06-2014 09:46AM

fortis wrote: »

Getting to a2 wasn't the point

fortis wrote: »

..and I don't recall saying that upgrades to A2 aren't an issue

Now I'm confused.

fortis · 17-06-2014 09:56AM

lennymc made the following point after my initial post:

"If a rider cant get points against juniors and vets they sure as hell wont have an easy time in A2. If they really want to get to A2, they can self upgrade at the start of the year. There really is no problem here."

To which I replied that getting to a2, wasn't actually the point (of the post, initially), The original point was that the system should be fair and the same for all. It was up to this year. It's not now.

But anyway there isn't much point in tit for tat on individual language. I think Plastik kind of summed up the way I feel about it and probably a good few others judging by some of the other comments posted here namely:

"I think that any rider that earns an upgrade during the calender year and then immediately downgrades again over the winter for no other reason than they're a little older and it's a little harder just comes out of it looking like an idiot. I have no respect for them what so ever."

And I would add that someone who doesn't take an automatic upgrade on reaching the threshold is the same. It's pretty pathetic. But sur if that's what keeps em happy..!

Chips Lovell · 17-06-2014 10:20AM

Actually, I'd disagree with Lenny's point to a certain extent. I've seen plenty of fellas upgrading themselves from A3 and they've done just fine in A2, gotten around the Rás etc. I even know a few who've bumped themselves up from A4 to A2 over the course of a two or three seasons, again without issue. The converse is also true. I've seen some guys, especially older ones, get results in A3 but get annihilated in A1/A2 races.

People do reach an ages where they'd still have the racecraft to position themselves well lower category races but wouldn't have the legs any more to survive with the big guns.

I think 50 is a reasonable cut-off point. It's a bit unfair to force fellas who are old enough to be my Da into A1/A2 races.

fortis · 17-06-2014 10:36AM

Just as an FYI

Here is the system in Britain. Similar but in certain aspects very different

britishcycling.org.uk/zuvvi/media/bc_files/rulebook/2014__Rulebook_-_05-GENERAL_ROAD_TRACK.pdf

Pages 51-53 are the relevant pages

There are no exception made on basis of age (except for juniors) though people are classified accordingly. They count back to 20 places in bigger races, 10 in smaller events. The number of points awarded varies according to the type of event. Promotions are automatic. They have the same number of categories (plus an elite)

Seems to be working for them

ragazzo · 17-06-2014 12:39PM

fortis wrote: »

That kind of sums up the attitude of people who defend not having a straightforward points system and logical promotion. "I'm alright jack"!

Tell me how would his racing "career" be over! Did he fall? Did he break something? Is he not capable of mounting a bike the following week and doing it again?

Many here have pointed out that it's not a "witch hunt" or anything to do with age but more with ability. Anyone who has won a race has show they have ability. You don't win an A3 race by fluke.

I also agree with the sentiment on Juniors, they are not all created the same and you see many of them struggling in A3 races (again in no small part because the A3 cat is not a true reflection of A3 standard when people who are winning week in week out remain unpromoted, or drop back from higher cat's every year), but those that are (like the brilliant ED) are then moved up later in the year at CI's discretion.

Those that are struggling a bit however are surely none too impressed with the current setup either and are likely to become disillusioned.

If the problem is numbers in A2 (it clearly is, but part of the reason for that problem is that promotions out of A3 are not happening with the frequency they should be) perhaps an alternative for one year would be to move anyone in A3 with 8-10+ points up to A2 for next year (no exceptions). That would ensure a much bigger bunch in A2 and with a bigger bunch and more involved it should make the racing more interesting and "easier". The A3 category would still be plenty big.
Anyone who doesn't score an A2 point is allowed to downgrade the following year.

I wasn't at the Roscommon race you refer to, but I heard the A1/2 race consisted of about 20 riders. That's not a race. Something needs to be done.

I am almost sure this is a repeat of a thread started by fortis earlier this year or last year. Maybe I am imagining it but the posts read very familiar.

The problem then and now is that there are not enough racing A1's. As a result the A1/A2 categories are usually raced together.
The A2 category is generally a play category for the A1's benefit.

There are more than enough A2's to hold stand alone races for this category. If this happened the resulting upgrades would boost numbers in the problematic A1 category. ( where vets regularly dominate the results)
A2's would have a racing schedule that they could cope with and the better ones would earn upgrades as the season progressed thus aiding their transition to A1 racing and also boosting the numbers in A1.
Upgrades from A3 would replenish numbers in the A2 category.

The problem for organisers is that holding a race for 20ish A1 riders is not feasible and therefore they are allowed ride the A2 event.

Castigating or slagging off any vet who decides not to avail of an upgrade to A1 is ignorant and shortsighted and illustrates a complete lack of understanding of our sport versus real life.
There are many reasons why a vet might make this decision. These vets have usually raced at A1 level for many years in the past. They are not stupid people and realise that their current ability would not allow them to race competitively at the higher level. Home/work life could be interfering with time available for training. Some of them may be aiding new team mates by riding in the lower categories.

Have any of the posters who are unhappy with decisions made regarding riders personal upgrades/downgrades ever raced at A1 or similar level?

I doubt it because that racing would have opened your minds as well as your holes and you would not be so quick to condemn from the sidelines.

Learn from these guys and be happy that they continue to race albeit in a lower category. Watch their racing style and their moves and they may even help you towards that desired upgrade.

It should be an honour to have the opportunity to race with and learn from guys who have such palmares and experience.
It is sad that it leads to nothing more than bitching sessions.

fortis · 17-06-2014 01:40PM

First off this isn't a repeat of a thread that I started . I did post a few time to a thread (started by someone else) on the Des Hanlon earlier in the year.

That time it was about Junior riders taking the points in A3 cat (which is also an issue that CI have flagged they are unable/unwilling to resolve). In particular at the time ED was regularly riding away on his own and winning races with a 5-10 minute margin
Since then at least the foolishness of that has been realised and Eddie now races with the A2/1's And holds his own no bother. Again his presence at the time was distorting the racing for others.

You speak from a pretty lofty perch there on home/work life balance - like nobody in lower categories has those problems or has experienced them. Those problems exist for most everyone in amateur sport. At all levels. The barriers to entry timewise are less of course the lower the category but they still exist.

So it is fair in your mind that someone can get promoted from A3 in one season, earn points in A2/1 also in the same season (which negates your comment that they wouldn't be competitive at the higher level) and then drop back immediately again in the next season and do the same thing again?
That's fair is it? That's what's happening now. Has happened. Will happen next year.

And yes, if doing (well participating in) likes of Ras Mumhain, Suir Valley is classified as "A1" racing then yes. And yes it's bloody hard. Nobody is expecting an easy ride at a higher level. Progression is part of any sport. People learn from moving up through the ranks, not by having the ranks moving down to murder them!

And that whole thing about plamares. Please. Like Plastik said of those dropping back:

"They're the ultimate sandbagger. By continuing to do it they simply reduce the stock of all they achieved in the past in my eyes. It's certainly all I'll remember them for."

I have no respect for them either for the same reason.

I agree wholehearteadly with you by the way on the numbers thing. It is an issue of numbers. This way of working isn't helping that in any way however.

Chips Lovell · 17-06-2014 01:54PM

Nothing has changed with regard to Juniors. They are still given leave to ride some A1/A2 races. That was the situation before the Des Hanlon Memorial and it's still the situation now.

fortis · 17-06-2014 01:58PM

Yes that's true I know. But they could have technically left him ride A3 events for the rest of the year though (as he is entitled to do). They realised this was silly however given how good he is (and Eddie himself probably did also I'm sure)

Fair play to him hope he does well during the summer abroad

Chips Lovell · 17-06-2014 02:06PM

I think you may be misunderstanding how that system works. You seem to think they made a mistake by having stronger juniors race A3 at the start of the year and their racing a top flight races later on is an acknowledgement of a mistake.

ragazzo · 17-06-2014 02:26PM

fortis wrote: »

First off this isn't a repeat of a thread that I started . I did post a few time to a thread (started by someone else) on the Des Hanlon earlier in the year.

That time it was about Junior riders taking the points in A3 cat (which is also an issue that CI have flagged they are unable/unwilling to resolve). In particular at the time ED was regularly riding away on his own and winning races with a 5-10 minute margin
Since then at least the foolishness of that has been realised and Eddie now races with the A2/1's And holds his own no bother. Again his presence at the time was distorting the racing for others.

You speak from a pretty lofty perch there on home/work life balance - like nobody in lower categories has those problems or has experienced them. Those problems exist for most everyone in amateur sport. At all levels. The barriers to entry timewise are less of course the lower the category but they still exist.

So it is fair in your mind that someone can get promoted from A3 in one season, earn points in A2/1 also in the same season (which negates your comment that they wouldn't be competitive at the higher level) and then drop back immediately again in the next season and do the same thing again?
That's fair is it? That's what's happening now. Has happened. Will happen next year.

And yes, if doing (well participating in) likes of Ras Mumhain, Suir Valley is classified as "A1" racing then yes. And yes it's bloody hard. Nobody is expecting an easy ride at a higher level. Progression is part of any sport. People learn from moving up through the ranks, not by having the ranks moving down to murder them!

And that whole thing about plamares. Please. Like Plastik said of those dropping back:

"They're the ultimate sandbagger. By continuing to do it they simply reduce the stock of all they achieved in the past in my eyes. It's certainly all I'll remember them for."

I have no respect for them either for the same reason.

I agree wholehearteadly with you by the way on the numbers thing. It is an issue of numbers. This way of working isn't helping that in any way however.

My perch may be lofty but the fact remains.
Many riders can get around A3 and A4 races with little training. Experience alone will bring you to the finish line in the majority, though not all, of these races.
At the highest level this is not possible. Even with hard training the body of an older person does not act the same as in their younger years. Recuperation also takes much longer.
It is better to have these guys involved in racing rather than some other option.
You are entitled to your opinion but it seems rather self serving and just sounds like a whinge. You are also entitled to whinge but it sounds a bit old at this stage. Whoops, I almost slipped off my lofty perch! One of those vets greased it. Sandbaggers!

The reference to palmares/experience was in relation to the learning curve of newer riders. These old vets are the ones to watch and learn from. That seems to be beyond your level of comprehension but hopefully someday you will arise from your slumber.

I doubt if these vets are pothunters as you seem to be implying. Most of them have won many big races (palmares) and are probably racing now at a level that suits them rather than risking health damage at the A1 level. A 50+ rider with a lack of training being forced to race at a level beyond his current ability could have unnecessary consequences.
That might keep your insatiable desire for ranking points satisfied but would be ultimately detrimental to riders health and the progression of our sport.

The problem remains the lack of racing riders at A1 level. Start from that point and progress will be made.

buffalo · 17-06-2014 02:38PM

ragazzo wrote: »

A 50+ rider with a lack of training being forced to race at a level beyond his current ability could have unnecessary consequences.

I don't think anyone is suggesting all vets should be forced to race A1. This idea that it's beyond the ability of every old fogey to compete with any A2 rider is frankly ageist tbh, and shouldn't be tolerated. I think what fortis is suggesting is that the 50+yo riders who have shown that racing beyond A3 is within his/her ability, should not be in A3 if they earn their points.

Your earlier post raises a lot of strawmen that I'm not that bothered to respond to, but I still fail to see why the excuse that "Home/work life could be interfering with time available for training" is only valid for vets, and not for the rest of the riders.

And yes, I've raced A1, and had my hole opened a few times. It's one of the reasons I "realise that [my] current ability would not allow [me] to race competitively at the higher level". But here I am, still in A1.

ragazzo · 17-06-2014 02:58PM

buffalo wrote: »

I don't think anyone is suggesting all vets should be forced to race A1. This idea that it's beyond the ability of every old fogey to compete with any A2 rider is frankly ageist tbh, and shouldn't be tolerated. I think what fortis is suggesting is that the 50+yo riders who have shown that racing beyond A3 is within his/her ability, should not be in A3 if they earn their points.

Your earlier post raises a lot of strawmen that I'm not that bothered to respond to, but I still fail to see why the excuse that "Home/work life could be interfering with time available for training" is only valid for vets, and not for the rest of the riders.

And yes, I've raced A1, and had my hole opened a few times. It's one of the reasons I "realise that [my] current ability would not allow [me] to race competitively at the higher level". But here I am, still in A1.

I am sure that many riders over the years have found themselves in your predicament. Obtaining upgrades and unable to race at the upgraded level. Being found out in a way. Or maybe my 'strawmen' formerly raised might help to explain situations like this.

The vets at the centre of this discussion probably had rough seasons at Category 1 level over the years but struggled on regardless.
Now there is a rule which caters towards advanced age. It is like a pension. You reach a certain age and people offer to help you cross the road.
These guys are still kicking your asses and you find it difficult to accept.

Solution: train/ race smarter or make some extra sacrifices with your lifestyle or request a downgrade from the grading officer.

Problem solved.

Inquitus · 17-06-2014 03:02PM

ragazzo wrote: »

I am sure that many riders over the years have found themselves in your predicament. Obtaining upgrades and unable to race at the upgraded level. Being found out in a way. Or maybe my 'strawmen' formerly raised might help to explain situations like this.

The vets at the centre of this discussion probably had rough seasons at Category 1 level over the years but struggled on regardless.
Now there is a rule which caters towards advanced age. It is like a pension. You reach a certain age and people offer to help you cross the road.
These guys are still kicking your asses and you find it difficult to accept.

Solution: train/ race smarter or make some extra sacrifices with your lifestyle or request a downgrade from the grading officer.

Problem solved.

This is nonsense, the upgrade system is meritocratic, if you score enough points you are deemed good enough to race at the next level. I don't see how age has anything to do with that. These "Supervets" can then downgrade themselves each off season, so if age does catch up with them they will remain in A3 if they can't score enough points in any given period to get upgraded, and if they keep winning then they should keep getting upgraded.

buffalo · 17-06-2014 03:07PM

ragazzo wrote: »

Solution: train/ race smarter or make some extra sacrifices with your lifestyle or request a downgrade from the grading officer.

Problem solved.

Why isn't this a solution for the vets?

ragazzo · 17-06-2014 03:10PM

buffalo wrote: »

Why isn't this a solution for the vets?

It is a solution for the vets. Is that not the whole basis for this rant.
Some posters do not like the solution.

Chips Lovell · 17-06-2014 03:12PM

I think someone in their 20s and 30s would have some chance of training themselves into shape if they find themselves out of their depth in the category they're racing in.

Less so with someone in their 50s.

ragazzo · 17-06-2014 03:14PM

Inquitus wrote: »

This is nonsense, the upgrade system is meritocratic, if you score enough points you are deemed good enough to race at the next level. I don't see how age has anything to do with that. These "Supervets" can then downgrade themselves each off season, so if age does catch up with them they will remain in A3 if they can't score enough points in any given period to get upgraded, and if they keep winning then they should keep getting upgraded.

Which part exactly is nonsense?

Inquitus · 17-06-2014 03:14PM

Oscar Gateaux wrote: »

I think someone in their 20s and 30s would have some chance of training themselves into shape if they find themselves out of their depth in the category they're racing in.

Less so with someone in their 50s.

Those of us in our 30's may well have more Family and Work pressures than someone in their 50's. Mid 30's being prime time for parenthood.

Chips Lovell · 17-06-2014 03:15PM

I never said family and work commitments should form part of considerations for grading. I don't think they should.

buffalo · 17-06-2014 03:16PM

ragazzo wrote: »

buffalo wrote:

ragazzo wrote: »

Solution: train/ race smarter or make some extra sacrifices with your lifestyle or request a downgrade from the grading officer.

Problem solved.

Why isn't this a solution for the vets?

It is a solution for the vets. Is that not the whole basis for this rant.
Some posters do not like the solution.

What? Did you read the first post?

Such riders [50+ vets] are exempt from automatic upgrades during the licence year unless
requested by the rider on reaching the relevant points threshold.

i.e. no need to request a downgrade, because you'll never be upgraded unless you request that.

ragazzo · 17-06-2014 03:19PM

Inquitus wrote: »

Those of us in our 30's may well have more Family and Work pressures than someone in their 50's. Mid 30's being prime time for parenthood.

Are you sure about that? Mid forties seems to be the new mid thirties.
Plenty of forties/fifties with children and work pressures.

ragazzo · 17-06-2014 03:22PM

buffalo wrote: »

What? Did you read the first post?

i.e. no need to request a downgrade, because you'll never be upgraded unless you request that.

Exactly. That is the solution for the vets. Your solution as a younger person is to request a downgrade.
Same net result so are we happy now?

lennymc · 17-06-2014 03:27PM

ragazzo wrote: »

Are you sure about that? Mid forties seems to be the new mid thirties.
Plenty of forties/fifties with children and work pressures.

twenties are the new juniors, seniors are the new fifties, oaps are the new youths!

It's all soooo confusing.

ragazzo · 17-06-2014 03:36PM

lennymc wrote: »

twenties are the new juniors, seniors are the new fifties, oaps are the new youths!

It's all soooo confusing.

I know. I need an upgrade to vet so I can then downgrade to A3.
Can I do that?
No, no the juniors and supervets are A3, can I have an A4 please??

buffalo · 17-06-2014 04:07PM

ragazzo wrote: »

Exactly. That is the solution for the vets. Your solution as a younger person is to request a downgrade.
Same net result so are we happy now?

So I'll win two A2 races early season, get my 15 points and upgrade to A1, then email the grading officer and ask him to move me down to A2 again? I'll let you know what he says.

ragazzo · 17-06-2014 04:41PM

buffalo wrote: »

So I'll win two A2 races early season, get my 15 points and upgrade to A1, then email the grading officer and ask him to move me down to A2 again? I'll let you know what he says.

Fair play if you win two early season A2 races. You will deserve the upgrade.

I have not seen the 2015 road calendar but I guess it will be largely similar to the 2014 issue.

If you win two early season races the chances are that they will not be A2 races. They will be mixed a+/A1/2 races which I have already stated on numerous occasions is the root of the grading problem.

Do you mean if you get first unplaced A2 in these races? = no points so you can take the money and rest easy.
Do you mean that you beat all the A+/A1 riders?= 8 to 10 grading points depending on race distance so you get upgraded having shown that you are going well enough to beat the best of the rest.

I wouldn't recommend emailing the grading officer in the above circumstances.
Also, I am having difficulty identifying all these 50+ vets who have won numerous A+/A1/A2 races whilst competing as an A3.

Can you provide links to the resulting write ups on these heroic feats? Please?

I am still not sure exactly why you are bitching about the situation.

Megathread: Discussion on Vets and Juniors in the A3 category

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