Unpopular Horse Racing Opinions

andyman · 16-06-2014 06:40PM #1

These threads appear in a good few sports forums and they're good for enticing debate and discussion.

I'm going to put it out there. I think Frankel, as class a horse as he was, should not have got such a high rating and that Sea The Stars was a better horse. I think this because as Jim McGrath put it when he won the Arc - "perfection in equine form" and because of everything he achieved. I don't think The 3yo in 2011 were all that either. Sea The Stars achieved what he did against a very, very talented bunch of 3yo in 2009.

Over to you.

16-06-2014 06:56PM

Urban Sea was forced into early retirement

longshotvalue · 16-06-2014 07:17PM

andyman wrote: »

These threads appear in a good few sports forums and they're good for enticing debate and discussion.

I'm going to put it out there. I think Frankel, as class a horse as he was, should not have got such a high rating and that Sea The Stars was a better horse. I think this because as Jim McGrath put it when he won the Arc - "perfection in equine form" and because of everything he achieved. I don't think The 3yo in 2011 were all that either. Sea The Stars achieved what he did against a very, very talented bunch of 3yo in 2009.

Over to you.

I Agree Sea the Stars achieved far more than Frankel.

sdoc13 · 16-06-2014 07:18PM

aidankkk wrote: »

I Agree Sea the Stars achieved far more than Frankel.

Plus 1

jimjamcos · 16-06-2014 07:48PM

Sea The Stars achieved more because he was campaigned more adventurously, it shouldn't take away from Frankel's legacy though. What we do know is that the form of his wins has been repeatedly franked. Forget his 3yo form, his beating of St Nic and CDA, multiple Gr1 winners and the two highest earning European horses in history (the latter having just beaten one of the finest Arc winners we'll ever see) is outstanding. His old whipping boy Farhh also made a mockery of staring at Frankel's arse to win his Gr1's in style last season.

Frankel can never match Sea The Stars achievements but you can't blame the horse for that. In terms of talent it's impossible to split them though.

tryfix · 16-06-2014 09:56PM

They were roughly about the same level of ability with Frankel hitting the heights constantly as a 4yo but in a very controlled environment which renders him a little soft. Frankel was a move horse with one mighty sustained burst of acceleration which brought to him to 135 as the limit of his abilities, another horse like Sea The Stars who achieved that level with something in reserve and with the ability to quicken at the death would have done Frankel at the line over 10f.

Using St Nick as a marker of Frankel's ability you need to take into account the trip, St Nick tried to win at 10f 4 times and failed every time. He was a 120-122 horse at 10f. Frankel's beating of him was equal to a 135 run. The same with using the dodgy Cirrus Des Aigles in the Champion Stakes, that day Frankel beat Nathaniel in 3rd a 124 horse at 10f by 4 1/4l or 8lb. His monster Ascot Queen Anne win was another crock rating wise, he beat Indominito 108 by 12 1/2l or 25lb, Excelebration beat the same horse by 10l and 10 1/2l soon after.

Too much hype and he never did what the greats do, he never ran outside his comfort zone.

Dancing Brave would have beaten the pair of them at any trip.:D

ComplyOrDie · 16-06-2014 10:24PM

STS = Talented, Done enough,
Frankel = Excitement, power, acceleration, dominance, Flash

While I was a big Frankle fan I always felt he should have globe trotted. They played it safe and for that I was disappointed. I had a lot of respect for Black Caviar coming over and I almost felt let down by connections to deprive the world of Frankle. In fairness to STS he toured Europe and won in style, but he did not have the same presence as Frankle. I backed STS in his mdn when he lost and I even backed him for the 2000G at 20-1 but to me he would never beat Frankle over 6f-8f. I always thought I would love to see what Frankle could do over 6f in a g1, I have a feeling he would take it. I remember an advertisement at the time the only certainties in life Death, Taxes and Frankle and tbh he was one of a small few that you could say that confidently about .

jimjamcos · 16-06-2014 10:44PM

tryfix wrote: »

They were roughly about the same level of ability with Frankel hitting the heights constantly as a 4yo but in a very controlled environment which renders him a little soft. Frankel was a move horse with one mighty sustained burst of acceleration which brought to him to 135 as the limit of his abilities, another horse like Sea The Stars who achieved that level with something in reserve and with the ability to quicken at the death would have done Frankel at the line over 10f.

Using St Nick as a marker of Frankel's ability you need to take into account the trip, St Nick tried to win at 10f 4 times and failed every time. He was a 120-122 horse at 10f. Frankel's beating of him was equal to a 135 run. The same with using the dodgy Cirrus Des Aigles in the Champion Stakes, that day Frankel beat Nathaniel in 3rd a 124 horse at 10f by 4 1/4l or 8lb. His monster Ascot Queen Anne win was another crock rating wise, he beat Indominito 108 by 12 1/2l or 25lb, Excelebration beat the same horse by 10l and 10 1/2l soon after.

Too much hype and he never did what the greats do, he never ran outside his comfort zone.

Dancing Brave would have beaten the pair of them at any trip.:D

Impossible to know if Sea The Stars, or any horse from another generation, would have beaten Frankel as the gun was never put to his head against a horse good enough to eyeball him. Racing style is irrelevant in such a fantasy debate.

As for the "dodgy" CDA Champion Stakes, you fail to mention the ground which definitely wasn't to his liking and more importantly the fact that he badly missed the break.

How does Farhh fair in your analysis of Frankel's form?

andyman · 16-06-2014 10:50PM

ComplyOrDie wrote: »

STS = Talented, Done enough,
Frankel = Excitement, power, acceleration, dominance, Flash

While I was a big Frankle fan I always felt he should have globe trotted. They played it safe and for that I was disappointed. I had a lot of respect for Black Caviar coming over and I almost felt let down by connections to deprive the world of Frankle. In fairness to STS he toured Europe and won in style, but he did not have the same presence as Frankle. I backed STS in his mdn when he lost and I even backed him for the 2000G at 20-1 but to me he would never beat Frankle over 6f-8f. I always thought I would love to see what Frankle could do over 6f in a g1, I have a feeling he would take it. I remember an advertisement at the time the only certainties in life Death, Taxes and Frankle and tbh he was one of a small few that you could say that confidently about .

See, STS didn't just "do enough". He won the Guineas, Derby, Arc and Eclipse, all races over different distances and against some of the best horses racing has seen. Frankel was kept very precious and, like tryfix said, was never taken out of his comfort zone because of his unbeaten record and the risk of decreasing his stud value.

He was a monster at 8f and 10f, but he was rated a lot higher than he should have been. Excelebration was never a 135 (?) rated horse but it makes Frankel look stronger.

Morgans · 16-06-2014 11:07PM

andyman wrote: »

See, STS didn't just "do enough". He won the Guineas, Derby, Arc and Eclipse, all races over different distances and against some of the best horses racing has seen.

Funny how Excelebration is always thrown up as medicore (three gp 1s wins, 3 times runner up to Frankel) and Sea the Stars beat some of the "best horses racing has seen" like delegator, fame and glory, rip van winkle and Youmzain.

I think Frankel maybe over rated a touch, but I dont think he would have been beaten by Dancing Brave or Sea The Stars at anything less than 12f. But there you go. Both those horses were campaigned as if there 3yo careers were all that they were getting, Frankel wasnt. It appears the OP has failed in putting forward an unpopular opinion. In fact, I wonder if Frankel was trained by John Oxx, would there be as many out to knock him (I appreciate Tryfix's work in his ratings)

Slattsy · 16-06-2014 11:10PM

Frankel would have beat STS over a mile and 10f (imho)

Slattsy · 16-06-2014 11:11PM

My own personal and hopefully unpopular opinion to stir things up:
Willie Mullins is over-rated and cant train chasers !!!!

Slate me

andyman · 16-06-2014 11:19PM

Morgans wrote: »

Funny how Excelebration is always thrown up as medicore (three gp 1s wins, 3 times runner up to Frankel) and Sea the Stars beat some of the "best horses racing has seen" like delegator, fame and glory, rip van winkle and Youmzain.

I think Frankel maybe over rated a touch, but I dont think he would have been beaten by Dancing Brave or Sea The Stars at anything less than 12f. But there you go. Both those horses were campaigned as if there 3yo careers were all that they were getting, Frankel wasnt. It appears the OP has failed in putting forward an unpopular opinion. In fact, I wonder if Frankel was trained by John Oxx, would there be as many out to knock him (I appreciate Tryfix's work in his ratings)

Quote where I said Excelebration was mediocre please.

If you come back with "quote where I said you said he was mediocre" then you're bringing it up in the first place is moot.

jimjamcos · 16-06-2014 11:25PM

Slattsy wrote: »

My own personal and hopefully unpopular opinion to stir things up:
Willie Mullins is over-rated and cant train chasers !!!!

Slate me

Bang on! He's also to blame for boring the arse of all Irish NH fans, entering 46 horses in a Novice hurdle before pulling 43 of them, leaving his pick of the week to beat two stable donkeys. Look at the flat equivalent AOB running Australia and War Command in the Guineas with loads at stake as future stallions. AOB > Willie.

Morgans · 16-06-2014 11:27PM

andyman wrote: »

Quote where I said Excelebration was mediocre please.

If you come back with "quote where I said you said he was mediocre" then you're bringing it up in the first place is moot.

Aaaah jeez. I paraphrased a commonly thrown up criticism which is often used by those looking for some reason to knock Frankel. You dont think he is worthy of his rating - suggesting that those giving the ratings have some agenda in keeping Frankel's ratings high. I apologise for any offence in paraphrasing.

Now, I take it that you are standing by the statement that Delegator, Fame and Glory, Youmzain and Rip Van Winkle are some for the best horses racing has ever seen (or are their others), rather than correcting yourself and saying you were a little carried away.

Every horse that was beaten by HORSE A was a superstar, while every horse beaten by HORSE B was overrated. All to win an argument. Not even remotely interested in getting at something close to the truth of the matter.

wicklowwonder · 16-06-2014 11:30PM

Ted Walsh should not be on TV he brings nothing to RTE commentary and really hasn't much of a clue at all, or is really poor at getting it across. Knows even less about flat!

Ruby while a great jockey is not someone I would ever like to go for a pint with. He will follow his old lad onto TV too, but probably on channel 4 and I can't see him doing a decent job.

NaiveMelodies · 16-06-2014 11:32PM

My unpopular opinion is that people should not bet on horses if they are going to regularly call X trainer and Y jockey bent after losing a bet.
Part of the game.... the great game.

jimjamcos · 16-06-2014 11:33PM

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Ted Walsh should not be on TV he brings nothing to RTE commentary and really hasn't much of a clue at all, or is really poor at getting it across. Knows even less about flat!

Ruby while a great jockey is not someone I would ever like to go for a pint with. He will follow his old lad onto TV too, but probably on channel 4 and I can't see him doing a decent job.

Ruby will become a flat trainer like a good greedy bastard! £££

NaiveMelodies · 16-06-2014 11:34PM

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Ted Walsh should not be on TV he brings nothing to RTE commentary and really hasn't much of a clue at all, or is really poor at getting it across. Knows even less about flat!

Ruby while a great jockey is not someone I would ever like to go for a pint with. He will follow his old lad onto TV too, but probably on channel 4 and I can't see him doing a decent job.

Ah man, Ted is like the Eamon Dunphy of the RTE coverage, talks so much crap but is thoroughly entertaining!

Agreed on Ruby.

Slattsy · 16-06-2014 11:35PM

I don't mind Ted.

Ruby now....

Morgans · 16-06-2014 11:37PM

tryfix wrote: »

They were roughly about the same level of ability with Frankel hitting the heights constantly as a 4yo but in a very controlled environment which renders him a little soft. Frankel was a move horse with one mighty sustained burst of acceleration which brought to him to 135 as the limit of his abilities, another horse like Sea The Stars who achieved that level with something in reserve and with the ability to quicken at the death would have done Frankel at the line over 10f.

Using St Nick as a marker of Frankel's ability you need to take into account the trip, St Nick tried to win at 10f 4 times and failed every time. He was a 120-122 horse at 10f. Frankel's beating of him was equal to a 135 run. The same with using the dodgy Cirrus Des Aigles in the Champion Stakes, that day Frankel beat Nathaniel in 3rd a 124 horse at 10f by 4 1/4l or 8lb. His monster Ascot Queen Anne win was another crock rating wise, he beat Indominito 108 by 12 1/2l or 25lb, Excelebration beat the same horse by 10l and 10 1/2l soon after.

Too much hype and he never did what the greats do, he never ran outside his comfort zone.

Dancing Brave would have beaten the pair of them at any trip.:D

Think your work on the ratings is good. But one thing that I dont get. The frankel and the comfort zone thing. I think its utter bull****. If anything, he went out of his comfort zone to a far greater degree than most horses are ever done. There had to be a point after 3f in the 2000 guineas that Frankel supporters thought that Queally was going to blow it. They put the gun to their horses head that day and again in the Queen Anne and the Juddmonte. Had it been intent on keeping their horse in the comfort zone, they could have sat, moved upsides 1f out and won 2l doing handstands. They stretched their horse (almost american style) in making him race balls out. To a far greater degree than most other inferior Grade 1 performers. I really dont get the criticism of connections. They should be applauded.

The only race they dodged was the Derby, and I he might have got away with it through his class, but subsequently he was proven right. IMO O'Brien made a balls of Hawk Wing by running him in the Derby.

tryfix · 16-06-2014 11:41PM

jimjamcos wrote: »

Impossible to know if Sea The Stars, or any horse from another generation, would have beaten Frankel as the gun was never put to his head against a horse good enough to eyeball him. Racing style is irrelevant in such a fantasy debate.

As for the "dodgy" CDA Champion Stakes, you fail to mention the ground which definitely wasn't to his liking and more importantly the fact that he badly missed the break.

How does Farhh fair in your analysis of Frankel's form?

Ah here, Frankel absolutely powered through soft ground ( remember his best ever performance in the Queen Anne on Soft ground ) his missing the break was probably worth another 2-3lb which still puts him at 135 and it may have helped him settle.

Farhh is problematic from a lot of perspectives. He was a 122 horse going into his Juddmonte performance behind Frankel, remember he was beaten by Nathaniel and by 2 1/2l by the 125 rated So You Think at 10f previously.

He chased home Moonlight Cloud in the Moulin, but the horses behind pull that form down to a lower level than you could blow it up to if you were trying to.

His run in the Lockinge was an 8lb beating of Sovereign Debt 111, he looked so good that day because he had plenty in hand of the runner up.

His win over CDA in the Champion was value for the distance Ruler Of The World 120 in third was beaten which was 3/4l or 1 1/2lb.

CDA had his failed drug test and had had a poor year which saw him running off 123 in that Champion Stakes.

Farhh never hit more than 124, and he didn't run to 124 despite his being claimed to have done so in his 7L defeat by Frankel because if he did he wouldn't have finished beside the not a 10f horse St Nicholas Abbey in that race.

tryfix · 17-06-2014 12:14AM

Morgans wrote: »

Think your work on the ratings is good. But one thing that I dont get. The frankel and the comfort zone thing. I think its utter bull****. If anything, he went out of his comfort zone to a far greater degree than most horses are ever done. There had to be a point after 3f in the 2000 guineas that Frankel supporters thought that Queally was going to blow it. They put the gun to their horses head that day and again in the Queen Anne and the Juddmonte. Had it been intent on keeping their horse in the comfort zone, they could have sat, moved upsides 1f out and won 2l doing handstands. They stretched their horse (almost american style) in making him race balls out. To a far greater degree than most other inferior Grade 1 performers. I really dont get the criticism of connections. They should be applauded.

The only race they dodged was the Derby, and I he might have got away with it through his class, but subsequently he was proven right. IMO O'Brien made a balls of Hawk Wing by running him in the Derby.

By his comfort zone I mean, he never raced outside England and kicked much the same bunch of horses around again and again until he stepped up to take two 10f races as 4 yo on his final lap of honour. He was never subjected to the helter skelter of a race like the Derby, Arc or King George. Unlike Sea The Stars and Dancing Brave who got 12f on class, Frankel was bred to get 12f, he was just not hardy enough at 3 to handle the kind of season that the other two managed.

His trainer managed him perfectly. He didn't move Frankel outside his 8f comfort zone as a 3yo, an age that the greats took on all and sundry and mastered them.

He was however exceptional in his consistency, three years with astonishing performances in all three years, his Royal Lodge 2yo win not receiving the attention it deserves.

Harry Angstrom · 17-06-2014 12:15AM

Ruby will be great as a commentator. He'll cut through all the crap. Lots of paddock commentators are afraid to upset trainers because they all co-exist in a cosy world. Ruby will call a spade a spade, even more so than his old man. He's the Roy Keane of horse racing.

Morgans · 17-06-2014 09:00AM

Ruby was fantastic on Derby Day on RUK, and Im guessing it will be the same during Royal Ascot.

Slattsy · 17-06-2014 09:37AM

That's something i have a huge issue with lads, why cant they get ex-flat jocks to do the flat meetings?

I cant be the only person that finds Mick Fitz's flat analysis cringeworthy, its awful stuff and you cant take him serious.

handsfree2 · 17-06-2014 09:45AM

Slattsy wrote: »

That's something i have a huge issue with lads, why cant they get ex-flat jocks to do the flat meetings?

I cant be the only person that finds Mick Fitz's flat analysis cringeworthy, its awful stuff and you cant take him serious.

They have too much money!!

dilinja1 · 17-06-2014 10:05AM

handsfree2 wrote: »

They have too much money!!

Channel 4s coverage is cringe worthy full stop. I like Mick but I sometimes think he holds back from conveying his full knowledge on the jumps. Probably a production decision to dumb down the content to appeal to a wider audience

risteard7 · 17-06-2014 04:38PM

Tom Quelly is a terrible jockey. How Cecil had him near the yard I don't know. Unless he's on a steering job or everything goes his way in the race forget it.

ComplyOrDie · 17-06-2014 05:27PM

Joseph is one of the best jockeys I’ve ever seen. Gets slated for being the son of god and for riding for Coolmore, but TBH for his age he is polished, powerful and an excellent tactician

ComplyOrDie · 17-06-2014 05:29PM

If you haven’t trained at least one good mare you can’t train…..this included Noel (can’t think of even one mare he trained)

Unpopular Horse Racing Opinions

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