#end fathers day-apparently is oppressive!

Shakespeare's Sister · 14-06-2014 02:47PM

Recondite49 wrote: »

Hi Aurum,

Thank you for the links - I take it then that the person who you describe as being in no way a prominent Feminist was instantly slated by Feminists everywhere for undermining your image? Have they distanced themselves from her or simply accepted the remarks?

Have moderate men's rights activists (the majority) publicly distanced themselves from the woman-hating crackposts?
I don't know. And I don't care. Because I know they don't agree with them - and that is enough. I'm a grown-up and not so needy that I require blatant affirmation of it.

My girlfriend believes she doesn't need a Feminazi to decide what's good for her to watch on TV.

Wow... your girlfriend is like... the vast majority of people...

As for Jezebel, I stopped reading her after she got behind the idiots who were stalking Richard Dawkins for telling a girl to grow up about some man leering after her in a lift, so you'll forgive me if I don't defer her to her authority.

Jezebel is a publication, not a woman. It is too extreme a lot of the time and I don't like it.

catallus · 14-06-2014 02:54PM

God Bless 4Chan!

Muise... · 14-06-2014 02:54PM

Recondite49 wrote: »

Hi Muise,

This is an excellent question! I try not to take Feminism too seriously but unfortunately there are times when their campaigns threaten to undermine human rights, an issue about which I care passionately.

Perhaps the most recent campaign I was involved in was where they wanted to introduce press censorship so we couldn't see topless girls on Page 3 of the Sun.

Now, I'm not an avid reader of the paper myself but I'll be damned if I'm going to allow some kind of state censor to be appointed just to soothe over a few people's bruised egos - aside from the obvious fact that the people affected don't need to look at the page in question and women choose to send in their photos, the system was too open to abuse.

It was an incredibly one sided conversation, as I tried to show the Feminists I debated that the issue was wider than they believed. I'm quite prepared to accept that a man who refused to view pornography may believe that he respects women more - what was at stake though was setting up some kind of filter would be a potential bar to freedom of expression.

Sorry ladies, freedom of expression wins over your right not to be offended every time.

Hi Recondite,

I notice there is something of a footbally nature going on in the world at the moment. What say I take a few tabloid headlines and facebook statuses I have seen and stride into the Football Forum and give out yards to them all about the amount of fecking diving the other night and isn't that ref some cnut? I am sure they will treat me as the well-read and rational football fan I am.

Sorry pal, the only thing that offends me is your synechochal mangling of issues. (Your take on **** to a newspaper photo being a human right is rather amusing though.)

M

Recondite49 · 14-06-2014 02:55PM

Magaggie wrote: »

Have moderate men's rights activists (the majority) publicly distanced themselves from the woman-hating crackposts?
I don't know. And I don't care. Because I know they don't agree with them - and that is enough. I'm a grown-up and not so needy that I require blatant affirmation of it.

Wow... your girlfriend is like... the vast majority of people...

Jezebel is a publication, not a woman. It is too extreme a lot of the time and I don't like it.

Hi Magaggie,

I agree with you about Jezebel, it's probably best to have publications like these in order to give Feminists enough rope to choke themselves with though.

As for my girlfriend being like most people, you're right too. I've noticed when debating issues with Feminists, when they find their positions are untenable (which is almost always), they resort to saying I'm just speaking from the position of the privileged because I'm a man - what was heartening in the case of the Guardian Article was to see the number of women who are fed up to the back teeth of being told my Feminists what they should like and why - and I am inclined to agree.

When you take the time to learn about Feminist campaigns, particularly those online, you find that the hypocrisy is as blatant as it's extreme. The woman I mentioned who wanted to commit virtual genocide against men for instance - her comment barely raised an eyebrow. Someone makes a comment about dressing conservatively (a well meaning if poorly worded piece of advice) and the next thing you know the streets are flooded with so-called Slutwalks.

Double standards much?

Recondite49 · 14-06-2014 02:57PM

Muise... wrote: »

Hi Recondite,

I notice there is something of a footbally nature going on in the world at the moment. What say I take a few tabloid headlines and facebook statuses I have seen and stride into the Football Forum and give out yards to them all about the amount of fecking diving the other night and isn't that ref some cnut? I am sure they will treat me as the well-read and rational football fan I am.

Sorry pal, the only thing that offends me is your synechochal mangling of issues. (Your take on **** to a newspaper photo being a human right is rather amusing though.)

M

Hi Muise,

I take freedom of expression as a human right as freedom minus what some people call porn isn't freedom any more, surely that's not too difficult a concept to grasp?

Muise... · 14-06-2014 02:57PM

Recondite49 wrote: »

Hi Magaggie,

I agree with you about Jezebel, it's probably best to have publications like these in order to give Feminists enough rope to choke themselves with though.

As for my girlfriend being like most people, you're right too. I've noticed when debating issues with Feminists, when they find their positions are untenable (which is almost always), they resort to saying I'm just speaking from the position of the privileged because I'm a man - what was heartening in the case of the Guardian Article was to see the number of women who are fed up to the back teeth of being told my Feminists what they should like and why - and I am inclined to agree.

When you take the time to learn about Feminist campaigns, particularly those online, you find that the hypocrisy is as blatant as it's extreme. The woman I mentioned who wanted to commit virtual genocide against men for instance - her comment barely raised an eyebrow. Someone makes a comment about dressing conservatively (a well meaning if poorly worded piece of advice) and the next thing you know the streets are flooded with so-called Slutwalks.

Double standards much?

Nah, I don't believe your girlfriend exists either. :pac:

Links234 · 14-06-2014 02:57PM

Recondite49 wrote: »

I take it then that the person who you describe as being in no way a prominent Feminist was instantly slated by Feminists everywhere for undermining your image? Have they distanced themselves from her or simply accepted the remarks?

Personally, I tend credit people with having enough intelligence to know that when I say I'm a feminist, that it doesn't mean I subscribe to such wholely ridiculous (and often fictional) viewpoints.

And also, what do you expect feminists to do? That every time some random kook posts something on Twitter, we should be contractually oblidged to make statements in unison decrying them?

Muise... · 14-06-2014 02:57PM

Recondite49 wrote: »

Hi Muise,

I take freedom of expression as a human right as freedom minus what some people call porn isn't freedom any more, surely that's not too difficult a concept to grasp?

NaN

Recondite49 · 14-06-2014 02:57PM

P_1 wrote: »

I have several in my circle of friends myself. Then again Dublin is far more cosmopolitan than Cork so that could be used as a mitigating circumstance :pac::p

Hi P_1,

I lived in Dublin up until last July, perhaps there's been an influx in my absence? I'm prepared to be amazed.

Recondite49 · 14-06-2014 03:00PM

Links234 wrote: »

Personally, I tend credit people with having enough intelligence to know that when I say I'm a feminist, that it doesn't mean I subscribe to such wholely ridiculous (and often fictional) viewpoints.

And also, what do you expect feminists to do? That every time some random kook posts something on Twitter, we should be contractually oblidged to make statements in unison decrying them?

Hi Links,

An interesting question - I would hope you don't hold ridiculous or fictional viewpoints. All I would say is that you don't have much in common then with the mainstream Feminist movements.

Of course any crank can say all men are rapists on Twitter. However when it's appearing in mainstream newspapers I would expect Feminists to make some kind of statement e.g That actually the number of rape scenes in Game of Thrones actually isn't a gender issue and women should be allowed to watch what they want, not too much to ask I hope?

Recondite49 · 14-06-2014 03:02PM

Muise... wrote: »

Nah, I don't believe your girlfriend exists either. :pac:

My girlfriend doesn't identify as a Feminist precisely because of people who want to try and turn sex scenes in a TV program into a Feminist issue. I think this is probably why we don't see many of these reasonable minded Feminists we've talked so much about - any woman with sense keeps the modern Feminist movement at arm's length.

Shakespeare's Sister · 14-06-2014 03:02PM

Recondite49 wrote: »

As for my girlfriend being like most people, you're right too. I've noticed when debating issues with Feminists, when they find their positions are untenable (which is almost always), they resort to saying I'm just speaking from the position of the privileged because I'm a man

Yeh you keep saying that. The only place I see such debates are on Boards (because I couldn't be dealing with those kind of debates otherwise) and I don't see those caricatures of feminists here at all thankfully.

what was heartening in the case of the Guardian Article was to see the number of women who are fed up to the back teeth of being told my Feminists what they should like and why - and I am inclined to agree.

"Heartening"? Why are you so keen to believe most feminists are crackpots? And it's hardly new or unusual for reasonable women not to want to be misrepresented by them.

When you take the time to learn about Feminist campaigns, particularly those online

Oh yeh the ones that are used as a stick to beat all feminists with?

you find that the hypocrisy is as blatant as it's extreme. The woman I mentioned who wanted to commit virtual genocide against men for instance - her comment barely raised an eyebrow. Someone makes a comment about dressing conservatively (a well meaning if poorly worded piece of advice) and the next thing you know the streets are flooded with so-called Slutwalks.

Double standards much?

And loon stuff is said against women by the male equivalent of the feminist extremists yet there's no huge storm about it because it's not even worth acknowledging. ":)"
Have a look at the thread about being unemployed and on dating sites - and you will see it ain't the women in there making all the horrible claims about the opposite sex.

Muise... · 14-06-2014 03:03PM

Recondite49 wrote: »

My girlfriend doesn't identify as a Feminist precisely because of people who want to try and turn sex scenes in a TV program into a Feminist issue. I think this is probably why we don't see many of these reasonable minded Feminists we've talked so much about - any woman with sense keeps the modern Feminist movement at arm's length.

Still not buying it.

Recondite49 · 14-06-2014 03:05PM

Magaggie wrote: »

Yeh you keep saying that. The only place I see such debates are on Boards (because I couldn't be dealing with those kind of debates otherwise) and I don't see those caricatures of feminists here at all thankfully.

I keep saying this because it's true. I have had similar debates in person when up in Dublin, on newspaper websites, social networking websites and in one famous instance at the top of the London Eye. Next!

"Heartening"? Why are you so keen to believe most feminists are crackpots? And it's hardly new or unusual for reasonable women not to want to be misrepresented by them.

I believe Feminism is a disease masquerading as its own cure. I detest hypocrisy so am always heartened by women catching on to the fact that Feminists despite their pretensions actually detract from their cause.

Oh yeh the ones that are used as a stick to beat all feminists with?

And loon stuff is said against women by the male equivalent of the feminist extremists yet there's no huge storm about it because it's not even worth acknowledging. ":)"
Have a look at the thread about being unemployed and on dating sites - and you will see it ain't the women in there making all the horrible claims about the opposite sex.

Could you be more specific about this? What loon stuff did you have in mind? I certainly don't have to look to fringe dating sites to see Feminists making untrue and unfair accusations about men. Would you care for more examples or shall we take it as read?

Recondite49 · 14-06-2014 03:07PM

Muise... wrote: »

Still not buying it.

Perhaps my girlfriend will vanish from existence due to the sheer power of your cynicism, or perhaps I spoke to her two minutes ago about the discussion we're having now. Have you heard of the ad hominem fallacy incidentally?

Shakespeare's Sister · 14-06-2014 03:08PM

Recondite49 wrote: »

My girlfriend doesn't identify as a Feminist precisely because of people who want to try and turn sex scenes in a TV program into a Feminist issue.

Silly to choose the extremists as a reason not to identify as something.
The reason I don't identify as one is because there are issues that affect people of all persuasions, but that doesn't mean I don't agree with some moderate feminist ideology.

I think this is probably why we don't see many of these reasonable minded Feminists we've talked so much about

Oh I see loads. But... confirmation bias is a hell of a thing.

any woman with sense keeps the modern Feminist movement at arm's length.

Are you saying modern feminism just = the crackpots?
Oh I just saw your post above. You are. ":)"

Links234 · 14-06-2014 03:08PM

Recondite49 wrote: »

Hi Links,

An interesting question - I would hope you don't hold ridiculous or fictional viewpoints. All I would say is that you don't have much in common then with the mainstream Feminist movements.

Of course any crank can say all men are rapists on Twitter. However when it's appearing in mainstream newspapers I would expect Feminists to make some kind of statement e.g That actually the number of rape scenes in Game of Thrones actually isn't a gender issue and women should be allowed to watch what they want, not too much to ask I hope?

The mainstream feminist movements aren't "reduce the male population by 90%" just so you know

I love Game of Thrones, but it's honestly tame. I've watched plenty of things that would leave the average GoT watcher a quivering mess. The thing is though, freedom of speech means that if a paper wants to publish an opinion piece criticizing the show, they're free to do so. Fancy that?

Muise... · 14-06-2014 03:10PM

Recondite49 wrote: »

Perhaps my girlfriend will vanish from existence due to the sheer power of your cynicism, or perhaps I spoke to her two minutes ago about the discussion we're having now. Have you heard of the ad hominem fallacy incidentally?

Ad feminem, you chauvinist pig!!!!!!

(not that it applies, unless you meant phallusy?)

Recondite49 · 14-06-2014 03:10PM

Links234 wrote: »

The mainstream feminist movements aren't "reduce the male population by 90%" just so you know

I love Game of Thrones, but it's honestly tame. I've watched plenty of things that would leave the average GoT watcher a quivering mess. The thing is though, freedom of speech means that if a paper wants to publish an opinion piece criticizing the show, they're free to do so. Fancy that?

Hi Links,

Naturally any journalist is within their right to criticise a TV show. I think my girlfriend's and other women's objection was the idea that the fact GOT may contains scenes of sexual violence was a) automatically a gender issue and b) was therefore less suitable for women to watch. Can't women decide for themselves?

I was delighted the article was published, it exposed the double standards of modern feminist dogma, so hope we see more to come!

Recondite49 · 14-06-2014 03:11PM

Muise... wrote: »

Ad feminem, you chauvinist pig!!!!!!

(not that it applies, unless you meant phallusy?)

I've always admired people who use multiple exclamation marks. Some might say it's the sign of an unbalanced mind but if you need to get something of your chest go for it. I won't lose any sleep.

Shakespeare's Sister · 14-06-2014 03:11PM

Recondite49 wrote: »

Could you be more specific about this? What loon stuff did you have in mind?

Are you seriously questioning that there are misogynists who misrepresent the men's rights movement?

I certainly don't have to look to fringe dating sites to see Feminists making untrue and unfair accusations about men.

So you keep telling us. And we know. But my point was: you're decrying the way it's not publicly condemned, yet the equivalent from some men isn't publicly condemned either, because most people are not needy enough to require this.

Shakespeare's Sister · 14-06-2014 03:12PM

Recondite49 wrote: »

I've always admired people who use multiple exclamation marks. Some might say it's the sign of an unbalanced mind but if you need to get something of your chest go for it.

But you do know she was joking and using the exclamation marks in an ironic manner?

Paddy Cow · 14-06-2014 03:12PM

Deleted User wrote: »

A friend of a friend is the worst find of feminist and was discussing this in the pub a few weeks back, she felt that a day celebrating rape was disgusting. As you'd expect she was called on the tape remark and asked what the hell she meant. She replied that "any sex act involving a man is rape because the man has a or use"

Sounds like she read this article where apparently all sex is rape. All men are b@stards who have conditioned women from birth to believe sex is natural, when in fact men are just objectifying and violating us poor unsuspecting women :rolleyes:

P_1 · 14-06-2014 03:14PM

At the end of the day you'll always find some extremist loons claiming to speak for every movement. Best solution I've always found is to either ignore or laugh at them.

Recondite49 · 14-06-2014 03:14PM

Magaggie wrote: »

Silly to choose the extremists as a reason not to identify as something.
The reason I don't identify as one is because there are issues that affect people of all persuasions, but that doesn't mean I don't agree with some moderate feminist ideology.

Oh I see loads. But... confirmation bias is a hell of a thing.

Are you saying modern feminism just = the crackpots?
Oh I just saw your post above. You are. ":)"

I've heard the reasoning before that we're just dealing with a few fringe nutters but as I said when it's the mainstream Feminists using social media and national newspapers as their mouthpiece, I think it's worth taking a step back and asking if we're really judging the many by the few.

Yes of course, they represent a handful of people as Feminists themselves represent only a small number of women. As I said in my experience, most women have more sense (as you can see from the comments I mentioned on the Guardian's Facebook page above for instance).

You can also look at some of the rhetoric and see that on the face of it, it seems quite plausible and reasonable. Indeed most Feminists I debate say the problem is I haven't learned enough about modern Feminism - I would say I have learned plenty to be going on with, thanks...

Muise... · 14-06-2014 03:15PM

Magaggie wrote: »

But you do know she was joking and using the exclamation marks in an ironic manner?

Whisht!

I'd say R's head'll melt when he goes back upthread and remembers the whole thing was a 4chan troll. :pac:

Recondite49 · 14-06-2014 03:15PM

P_1 wrote: »

At the end of the day you'll always find some extremist loons claiming to speak for every movement. Best solution I've always found is to either ignore or laugh at them.

I've heard this argument before from Christians who say that they're not responsible for Fundamentalists who want the dogma of Creationism taught in schools for instance. When you ask them to publicly condemn it though...

Recondite49 · 14-06-2014 03:16PM

Muise... wrote: »

Whisht! I'd say R's head'll melt when he goes back upthread and remembers the whole thing was a 4chan troll. :pac:

I gathered, it was very amusing. Honestly, I giggled. :-D

Muise... · 14-06-2014 03:18PM

Recondite49 wrote: »

I've heard this argument before from Christians who say that they're not responsible for Fundamentalists who want the dogma of Creationism taught in schools for instance. When you ask them to publicly condemn it though...

That is the problem when you only consult your imaginary mainstream feminists and your imaginary Christians - you get your own fears and neuroses projected back like a slap in the face from a boomerang.

14-06-2014 03:20PM

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Sounds like she read this article where apparently all sex is rape. All men are b@stards who have conditioned women from birth to believe sex is natural, when in fact men are just objectifying and violating us poor unsuspecting women :rolleyes:

From what my friend says, she has always believed that nonsense. She's a nice enough girl by all accounts but if you're a man then you are instantly the enemy.

#end fathers day-apparently is oppressive!

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