Black Economy

Coat22 · 13-06-2014 11:30AM

The Dagda wrote: »

During the Celtic Tiger the state had too much money, and with all that money did we get all the services required? Did we f*ck!!!

The state already has enough income to provide ALL the services needed. The problem is the gross waste in the system.

People believing that the state needs more money is part of the problem. It makes the politician's job easier.

Ah but I don’t – I just believe that everyone should be paying what the law says, this should allow for lower taxes overall and would reduce waste as the same people would then lose out on the benefits they now receive.

You’re spot on about waste – but try to cut out the ridiculous allowances, numbers scratching their ar$e in the HSE etc and see how likely you are to be re-elected – about the same as if you tried to tackle the black economy:p

Gannicus · 13-06-2014 11:30AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Report those you know to be working while claiming full dole or else don't bother complaining.

I couldn't agree more. I have no problem reporting people doing it.

It's actually starting to annoy me every time I see a new thread where people complain about someone they know to be defrauding the welfare system yet they moan about it here instead of reporting it.

If its never reported these people won't get caught.

The Dagda · 13-06-2014 11:41AM

Coat22 wrote: »

Ah but I don’t – I just believe that everyone should be paying what the law says, this should allow for lower taxes overall and would reduce waste as the same people would then lose out on the benefits they now receive.

You’re spot on about waste – but try to cut out the ridiculous allowances, numbers scratching their ar$e in the HSE etc and see how likely you are to be re-elected – about the same as if you tried to tackle the black economy:p

You clearly said if there was more money we'd have free child care. We had too much money during the celtic tiger. So much money that McCreevey ended up giving some back to us, and we didn't have anything like free childcare then.

When people see the state doing a better job then they'll feel better about paying tax.

The water tax is a perfect example. The correct way would've been to set up Irish water, fix the leaks and improve the quality of water in bad areas, and then start charging. The way they're doing it now gets people against it from the start.

Coat22 · 13-06-2014 11:48AM

Agree but my point is the Government should be doing more to make this publicly unacceptable and ENCOURAGE reporting. This would both urge people to come forward and probably reduce the number abusing the system straight away if they thought the chances of getting caught had substantially increased.

The insurance industry is a good example:

Back in the 90’s I worked on the continent. I got to know a few ads from Cork who moved there and eventually I moved home. On returning a year or so later one of the Cork lads was missing, I enquired where he was. In Ireland testifying for someone who was trying to claim against their insurance for an injury sustained while this lad was still on the continent! He was blatently lying to help his friend defraud the insurance company! When I returned home I was telling friends about it and told them I was reporting it to the guards. Everyone was horrified that I would even consider this so I dropped it. Today the insurance industry does a great job of encouraging people to “report suspect claims” and its no longer socially acceptable to screw the insurance business (in the 90s everyone seemed to think that because the industry was screwing them (which it was) then this was alright. It’s the same today with tax – the government are “screwing da people” ergo its fair game to “da people” to screw the system.

Try finding who to report tax evasion to on Google. Its not that easy. Just make it easy. It wouldn’t be hard to launch a campaign and frighten a few fraudsters.

topper75 · 13-06-2014 11:53AM

Coat22 wrote: »

... yet are down the post office on Saturday morning collecting their dole.

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

The State is being absolutely ruthless with people claiming or trying to defraud anything from them at the moment

Sorry. Does not compute.

Who is telling lies and truth between these two posts?

Coat22 · 13-06-2014 11:56AM

The Dagda wrote: »

You clearly said if there was more money we'd have free child care. We had too much money during the celtic tiger. So much money that McCreevey ended up giving some back to us, and we didn't have anything like free childcare then.

When people see the state doing a better job then they'll feel better about paying tax.

The water tax is a perfect example. The correct way would've been to set up Irish water, fix the leaks and improve the quality of water in bad areas, and then start charging. The way they're doing it now gets people against it from the start.

I said if the government had more money we COULD have free child care. We all know it was pissed away in the Celtic Tiger. It was pissed away on benchmarking so that civil servants who enjoy the best perks on the planet could also enjoy the best pay on the planet. Money was spent on infrastructure which you see today (not withstanding it was probably over spent on).

The SSIA saving scheme had nothing to do with the government having “too much money” – it was set up to curb rising inflation by encouraging people to save. Oh the irony today.

Again I am NOT suggesting tax people more – I absolutely think people should be taxed less – I would just like to see the laws applied equally to everyone and an effort made to eradicate fraud – this would increase the tax revenues but not hurt a compliant tax payer in the slightest.

The Dagda · 13-06-2014 12:16PM

Coat22 wrote: »

I said if the government had more money we COULD have free child care. We all know it was pissed away in the Celtic Tiger. It was pissed away on benchmarking so that civil servants who enjoy the best perks on the planet could also enjoy the best pay on the planet. Money was spent on infrastructure which you see today (not withstanding it was probably over spent on).

The SSIA saving scheme had nothing to do with the government having “too much money” – it was set up to curb rising inflation by encouraging people to save. Oh the irony today.

Again I am NOT suggesting tax people more – I absolutely think people should be taxed less – I would just like to see the laws applied equally to everyone and an effort made to eradicate fraud – this would increase the tax revenues but not hurt a compliant tax payer in the slightest.

The SSIA had everything to having too much money, to say otherwise is naive. Of course Fianna Fail disguised it as an economic "strategy" to curb inflation, but the truth is we had a massive surplus and rather than doing something worthy the idiots started buying votes.

They could've curbed the inflation other ways; taxes should've been raised during the good times. Then you can cut them in the bad times to stimulate.

Trying to chase people now is the wrong tactic. They should fix the systemic problems now, show the public that services are better. Let people see some improvements, raise confidence in the state and then there would be more support for chasing non compliant people.

Grayson · 13-06-2014 12:19PM

Coat22 wrote: »

I pay 52% on every penny extra I dare earn over €41,800. This is a joint income as my wife is not working. Before people jump up and down about how wealthy that makes me €41,800 equates to a net wage of €2,760 a month. Out of that has to come mortgage payments (luckily just under €1,500 a month) and all the other bills life throws at you (thankfully no car loans). If I have the drive to work harder (which I do) and earn a bonus for my efforts I will take home 48% of what I’m paid. I’ve learnt to live with this.

Sell the house. You obviously can't afford that mortgage. It's stupid having it. You could rent a two bed apt for less than a grand in dublins suburbs and have a lot more disposable income.

The problem is entirely in how much you signed up to pay. If you got rid of it you'd be a lot better off

Coat22 · 13-06-2014 02:11PM

Grayson wrote: »

Sell the house. You obviously can't afford that mortgage. It's stupid having it. You could rent a two bed apt for less than a grand in dublins suburbs and have a lot more disposable income.

The problem is entirely in how much you signed up to pay. If you got rid of it you'd be a lot better off

Who said I was struggling to afford the mortgage??? I'm not. The guy next to me isnt either because 5-6 times a month he can go out and earn 250 a time doing nixxers and nobody seems to give a sh1t that he doesn't pay tax on it. I work my ar$e off to provide for my family and give the government 52% of everything I earn over €42k to pay over paid public sector workers and provide for their pensions. They meanwhile go sick from their jobs and earn a sizable second income working while they should be in their actual jobs while not bothering to declare any of this for tax - this is just plain wrong.

Idbatterim · 13-06-2014 04:56PM

What I would like to see is a government getting serious about tax evasion / welfare fraud.

let them get serious about welfare reform to then!

strobe · 13-06-2014 05:44PM

Coat22 wrote: »

Will a government ever have the balls to stand up and tackle the issue of the black economy in Ireland as a means to raising extra revenue / reducing welfare costs?

I suspect the answer is never. Sure they will all make sound bites and release the occasional story about how one criminal was caught drawing welfare while living in Dalkey and holidaying in the Seychelles which they know will draw the praise of the masses reading their Evening Herald but when will they get serious about it??

I pay 52% on every penny extra I dare earn over €41,800. This is a joint income as my wife is not working. Before people jump up and down about how wealthy that makes me €41,800 equates to a net wage of €2,760 a month. Out of that has to come mortgage payments (luckily just under €1,500 a month) and all the other bills life throws at you (thankfully no car loans). If I have the drive to work harder (which I do) and earn a bonus for my efforts I will take home 48% of what I’m paid. I’ve learnt to live with this.

However what I am struggling with is that while I’m working 60 hours a week to earn a small bonus which might pay for new blinds, a bit of paint for the walls or maybe even a short holiday (and contribute more to the tax revenue of the state) a good chunk of my neighbours stuff their back pockets with nixxers and moan at having to pay water charges. Others work away happily on building sites etc (yes there are still some) and yet are down the post office on Saturday morning collecting their dole.

The next thing on the horizon I am quite sure will be means tested child benefit. In such a scenario I would surely lose the €280 a month we receive for raising our kids to contribute to paying off the national debt in 20 years time. My neighbours with their “official” incomes being short of mine would continue to get theirs (and probably some family income supplement on top of that). Marxism would be complete and their kids will flourish as mine go without.

What I would like to see is a government getting serious about tax evasion / welfare fraud. Launch a campaign. Have a confidential number and encourage reporting. Hire (yes hire!) staff to go after it (will pay for itself in the first week). 20 years ago everyone thought insurance fraud was acceptable because the insurance companies were screwing everyone. These days they advertise for whistle blowers and it is deemed as a criminal activity (which it always was). The potential is enormous. Much bigger than any water charges or TV licence evaders. But of course it would be political suicide as the masses revolt about how they are taking “their money”. Let them pay 52% tax on their nixxers, level the playing field and then look at means testing child benefit.

But it will never happen.

I'm sure we all agree with your sentiment...

...But I'm just curious, if there was some glitch in the revenue computer system or something, and that 52% you pay on the higher earnings was reduced to 5.2%, and somehow (not sure how... but we're playing hypotheticals, so humour me) you knew there was only a very very minuscule chance the mistake would ever be noticed or rectified... how quickly would you get on to them to notify them of the error?

tipptom · 13-06-2014 06:30PM

Anybody who listens to the adds from the insurance companys about "Steve stealing from your pocket"is pretty naïve if they think they are going to get cheaper insurance when you report Steve.
They will still jack up insurance owing to bad storms/floods/plague's of locusts etc and stick Steves money in their pockets or shareholders pockets,so they can f*ck of and get someone else to be a snitch for them for free to improve their bottom line.

Same for the government,you think if they got all the money in from the black economy that we would all have free crèches etc,Ha effing Ha,probably go towards hiring another 2,500 "office" staff for the HSE and stick them on desks in one of the closed down wards with the rest of them.

And I don't want to be like a German selling their mother down the river,would put up with the black economy rather than that,only thing I want from them is to give us back OUR money that THEY lost which is mega multiples of the loss to the black economy in this country and your income tax might be reduced,but I doubt it,that only happens approaching election time.

13-06-2014 07:55PM

Coat22 wrote: »

Who said I was struggling to afford the mortgage??? I'm not. The guy next to me isnt either because 5-6 times a month he can go out and earn 250 a time doing nixxers and nobody seems to give a sh1t that he doesn't pay tax on it. I work my ar$e off to provide for my family and give the government 52% of everything I earn over €42k to pay over paid public sector workers and provide for their pensions. They meanwhile go sick from their jobs and earn a sizable second income working while they should be in their actual jobs while not bothering to declare any of this for tax - this is just plain wrong.

You still haven't said if you have reported the welfare fraud you see going on beside you, while it does happen it is rare enough today for anyone to be doing it long term things are much tighter today than they were in the past, you could start a campaign of social stigma yourself, refuse to be in his company and make it know in your community why you are doing it. I doubt you would be popular.

tomwaterford · 13-06-2014 09:39PM

Coat22 wrote: »

Right - anoybody on this board thats not a student?

"It took me approx. 5 seconds to find the above link"

Well done you - of course I can do it myself (who's to say I haven't) but I am talking about a public awarness campaign. Make it clear to Bill & Betty who are struggling to pay water charges etc that actually is partly because Steve, the lovely lad from next door who does all his jobs for cash isn’t paying his way. Make it as socially unacceptable for lads who are known to be on dole turing up for a few pints in their work close as it now is for them to then hop in the car and drive home locked.

The Germans (who some reason we try not to be like) would sell their own mother up the river if they thought it meant they were paying more in tax because she was avoiding it. We should be doing the same rather than just complaining about water/property/bin/tv charges.

it is a pretty scummy thing to do....reporting/begrudging antone on the dole doing a few nixers....as anyone taking the piss...do by and large get caught

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Also there should be rewards for reporting people who are abusing the system. If they get convicted you get a graded reward based on the amount they were stealing.

only right then if you report someone in the wrong/not proven that you must forfeit your wages to them....as you are trying to stop their income....also no reports should be confidential....don't report if your unwilling to stand over it

kippy · 13-06-2014 10:39PM

tomwaterford wrote: »

only right then if you report someone in the wrong/not proven that you must forfeit your wages to them....as you are trying to stop their income....also no reports should be confidential....don't report if your unwilling to stand over it

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard (well one of the top 100).

No reports on anything at all should be confidential?
Thats nonsense.

So if you suspect someone is on the dole and working or working and not paying tax on part of their income (under the table so to speak) you should just let them have at it?

The people who can fully investigate this type of behaviour have the tools available to do so, all the guy on the street has is suspicion. He can and should pass on whatever information he has for the correct person to investigate.
Forfeiture of wages? Crazy stuff.
People get paid to investigate tip offs, if the person has been reported and found to be compliant then they have nothing to fear - have they?

Tail Docker · 13-06-2014 11:29PM

kippy wrote: »

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard (well one of the top 100).

No reports on anything at all should be confidential?
Thats nonsense.

So if you suspect someone is on the dole and working or working and not paying tax on part of their income (under the table so to speak) you should just let them have at it?

The people who can fully investigate this type of behaviour have the tools available to do so, all the guy on the street has is suspicion. He can and should pass on whatever information he has for the correct person to investigate.
Forfeiture of wages? Crazy stuff.
People get paid to investigate tip offs, if the person has been reported and found to be compliant then they have nothing to fear - have they?

Stasi good bit to take in there.

Red21 · 13-06-2014 11:33PM

Big Steve wrote: »

If its never reported these people won't get caught.

But where do you draw the line, if someone is trying hard to get a job and doing a few hrs childminding a wk, should they be reported? What should happen those who employ this childminder?

Don't try and say there is no line, thats just ridiculas, and because there is a line the whole thing breaks down, because you can justify just about anything.

Coat22 wrote: »

The insurance industry is a good example:

No it's not, the amount of people who have claimed insurance money is quiet small. Im sure it happens, but most people don't go out and make fradulant claims, where as every single person I know well has either cheated the system in some way or been the beneficiary of cheating.

Also op, I've come accross a few folk who talk and think just like you and as is usually the case with most people they've strong opinions about a broad range of issues , Religion, football,Iraq etc but they only ever seem to find their voice about this issue when they themselves have climbed up the the ladder.Is this the case with you or have you always felt strongly about this?

William F · 14-06-2014 12:22AM

I'd like to see the government clamp down on illegal immigrants in Ireland i.e. the ones who come here on the pretense of going to 'English Language College' and only work.

I don't think Irish people realize the level of corruption going on within these so called 'colleges' and the people who are assisting them.

There is serious criminality involving illegal immigrants and the above mentioned and there are people in trusted positions lining their pockets and making fortunes at OUR expense.

If the general public knew, there would be total uproar.

No point telling the guards though since they do their own laundry.

JRant · 14-06-2014 12:25AM

Ah OP you've bought into the the myth that there are 100's of millions to be saved by clamping down on welfare fraud. There is no magical pot of money at the end of that particular rainbow. Yes it happens but on a much smaller scale than you are imagining.

So what if your neighbours are doing nixers?

To be honest it's really none of your business what they do and life is far to short to be spending it worried about what your neighbour is up to on a saturday.

The system screws us all for most of our lives, sometimes it good to screw the system over every now and again.

Shakespeare's Sister · 14-06-2014 01:13AM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Well say if you are a business owner who pays all your taxes and are being undercut by people doing the jobs cash in hand without any insurance or qualification? Would you not be annoyed somebody is taking work away from you?
You are calling being fair and regulations begrudgery. I don't begrudge people making money but cheating both the dole and businesses along with safety issues is not to begrudge them.

Well I mean people who are qualified. I know what you're saying but can you really blame them if the opportunity comes up for a bit of extra cash doing what they're qualified to do while they're looking for employment?

policarp · 14-06-2014 03:14AM

A lot of countries need a black economy to keep money circulating.

Wompa1 · 14-06-2014 05:10AM

Yes, the government should stop the black economy but there's also a lot of other stuff they should be doing. It sucks but there ya go.

kippy · 14-06-2014 06:43AM

Magaggie wrote: »

Well I mean people who are qualified. I know what you're saying but can you really blame them if the opportunity comes up for a bit of extra cash doing what they're qualified to do while they're looking for employment?

They surely have employment if they are working?
Either way a properly qualified person can undercut like hell in a cash in hand scenario.

Shakespeare's Sister · 14-06-2014 12:39PM

kippy wrote: »

They surely have employment if they are working?
Either way a properly qualified person can undercut like hell in a cash in hand scenario.

I'm talking about people on the dole who get the occasional nixer (but not enough to live on alone).

sock puppet · 14-06-2014 01:30PM

Red21 wrote: »

But where do you draw the line, if someone is trying hard to get a job and doing a few hrs childminding a wk, should they be reported? What should happen those who employ this childminder?

You actually don't have to pay tax on childminding earnings if it's only a small amount.

Idbatterim · 16-06-2014 02:38PM

Ah OP you've bought into the the myth that there are 100's of millions to be saved by clamping down on welfare fraud. There is no magical pot of money at the end of that particular rainbow. Yes it happens but on a much smaller scale than you are imagining.

out of a total budget of 20,000,000,000 if even 5% was fraud, it would amount to a billion! So I reckon it is safe to say that welfare fraud is costing at least several hundred million a year...

Electric Sheep · 16-06-2014 05:33PM

Magaggie wrote: »

Well I mean people who are qualified. I know what you're saying but can you really blame them if the opportunity comes up for a bit of extra cash doing what they're qualified to do while they're looking for employment?

Isn't doing what they are qualified to do employment?

Electric Sheep · 16-06-2014 05:35PM

Magaggie wrote: »

I'm talking about people on the dole who get the occasional nixer (but not enough to live on alone).

So declare the occasional nixer to the welfare.

It's like back to the 80s when half the workforce in Ireland was working and signing, and it seemed to be totally socially acceptable.

oceanman · 16-06-2014 07:33PM

policarp wrote: »

A lot of countries need a black economy to keep money circulating.

very true, it will always exist and that's not a bad thing.

Shakespeare's Sister · 16-06-2014 10:15PM

Electric Sheep wrote: »

So declare the occasional nixer to the welfare.

It's like back to the 80s when half the workforce in Ireland was working and signing, and it seemed to be totally socially acceptable.

Be honest though, would you bother with all that red tape? It's easy to say you would when you're not in that situation.

Black Economy

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