Black Economy

12-06-2014 02:37PM

Coat22 wrote: »

Agreed – but in any other grown up country the authorities would at least me making an effort to sniff it out

There is no country in the world where people are not doing nixers for cash and putting it straight into a drawer in their bedroom.

Just to point out I'm not referring to people on the dole who are working on the sly this is a different situation altogether.

Coat22 · 12-06-2014 03:33PM

Ronan Raspy Sunlight wrote: »

There is no country in the world where people are not doing nixers for cash and putting it straight into a drawer in their bedroom.

Just to point out I'm not referring to people on the dole who are working on the sly this is a different situation altogether.

Sorry its not completely different – both are screwing the system. One is taking money that they are not entitled to and the other is not paying what they should – both are screwing the system but there is a common attitude out there like this that people doing cash jobs are somehow less of a thief than a dole swindler or a common bag snatcher.

When Begley got done for tax fraud on his garlic there was outrage – but as the insurance adds says “they are putting their hand in your pocket”

The Diabolical Monocle · 12-06-2014 03:50PM

Split the dole into four weekly payments.

Assign next collection time on each day of payment.
They must be at the post office within a time bracket of 4 hours.

i.e -joe soap gets his 47 euro on monday (188/4) with a ticket saying 'your next collection time is ..... [randomly selected] ....(tuesday between 2 and 6 pm)'.

This way if someone is working and collecting they will not be able to agree regular work hours with their employer. Nor will they be able to predict and tell the boss in advance.

When it comes to interviews for legitimate jobs even if its the same day theres a 4 hour window of opportunity or you can just explain to the potential employer.

MadYaker · 12-06-2014 04:01PM

Coat22 wrote: »

Agreed – but in any other grown up country the authorities would at least me making an effort to sniff it out

Ever heard the saying "don't rock the boat"? Anyway most people dodging tax like that are small business owners most of whom have gotten heavily battered in the recession so I don't harbor too much animosity for them.

Id be more interested in targeting the lifelong social welfare recipients who've never worked a day in their lives because they couldn't be arsed and the state caters too their every need, house, dole, medical cards, child benefit etc and all with the taxes were paying.

The Diabolical Monocle · 12-06-2014 04:05PM

Also there should be rewards for reporting people who are abusing the system. If they get convicted you get a graded reward based on the amount they were stealing.

12-06-2014 04:20PM

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Also there should be rewards for reporting people who are abusing the system. If they get convicted you get a graded reward based on the amount they were stealing.

Nothing worse than a rat!

Coat22 · 12-06-2014 04:31PM

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Also there should be rewards for reporting people who are abusing the system. If they get convicted you get a graded reward based on the amount they were stealing.

Great idea

SEPT 23 1989 · 12-06-2014 04:35PM

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Also there should be rewards for reporting people who are abusing the system. If they get convicted you get a graded reward based on the amount they were stealing.

surely the self satisfaction of being a model citizen would be reward enough

The Diabolical Monocle · 12-06-2014 04:55PM

Ronan Raspy Sunlight wrote: »

Nothing worse than a rat!

well .... theres skangers for a start.

The Diabolical Monocle · 12-06-2014 04:58PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

surely the self satisfaction of being a model citizen would be reward enough

What could be more poetic than the state helping the citizen in return for the citizen helping the state, ahhh brings little a tricolor tear to my eye.

Bog Standard User · 12-06-2014 05:02PM

reduce taxes on items such as vat, fuel, tobacco & alcohol and there wouldnt be much of a need for a black economy

Hootanany · 12-06-2014 05:16PM

Coat22 wrote: »

Will a government ever have the balls to stand up and tackle the issue of the black economy in Ireland as a means to raising extra revenue / reducing welfare costs?

I suspect the answer is never. Sure they will all make sound bites and release the occasional story about how one criminal was caught drawing welfare while living in Dalkey and holidaying in the Seychelles which they know will draw the praise of the masses reading their Evening Herald but when will they get serious about it??

I pay 52% on every penny extra I dare earn over €41,800. This is a joint income as my wife is not working. Before people jump up and down about how wealthy that makes me €41,800 equates to a net wage of €2,760 a month. Out of that has to come mortgage payments (luckily just under €1,500 a month) and all the other bills life throws at you (thankfully no car loans). If I have the drive to work harder (which I do) and earn a bonus for my efforts I will take home 48% of what I’m paid. I’ve learnt to live with this.

However what I am struggling with is that while I’m working 60 hours a week to earn a small bonus which might pay for new blinds, a bit of paint for the walls or maybe even a short holiday (and contribute more to the tax revenue of the state) a good chunk of my neighbours stuff their back pockets with nixxers and moan at having to pay water charges. Others work away happily on building sites etc (yes there are still some) and yet are down the post office on Saturday morning collecting their dole.

The next thing on the horizon I am quite sure will be means tested child benefit. In such a scenario I would surely lose the €280 a month we receive for raising our kids to contribute to paying off the national debt in 20 years time. My neighbours with their “official” incomes being short of mine would continue to get theirs (and probably some family income supplement on top of that). Marxism would be complete and their kids will flourish as mine go without.

What I would like to see is a government getting serious about tax evasion / welfare fraud. Launch a campaign. Have a confidential number and encourage reporting. Hire (yes hire!) staff to go after it (will pay for itself in the first week). 20 years ago everyone thought insurance fraud was acceptable because the insurance companies were screwing everyone. These days they advertise for whistle blowers and it is deemed as a criminal activity (which it always was). The potential is enormous. Much bigger than any water charges or TV licence evaders. But of course it would be political suicide as the masses revolt about how they are taking “their money”. Let them pay 52% tax on their nixxers, level the playing field and then look at means testing child benefit.

But it will never happen.

I think we should start with the top on multiple Pensions first then let it trickle down.

Coat22 · 12-06-2014 05:25PM

Hootanany wrote: »

I think we should start with the top on multiple Pensions first then let it trickle down.

Why? These will be taxed when the person draws them down and are already subject to the pensions levy

Hootanany · 12-06-2014 05:34PM

Coat22 wrote: »

Why? These will be taxed when the person draws them down and are already subject to the pensions levy

The Politicians not proper people

Cuddlesworth · 12-06-2014 05:35PM

A cashless society would remove the black economy. Would be interesting to live in as a PAYE worker or above board self employed.

JC01 · 12-06-2014 05:51PM

Coat22 wrote: »

Sorry its not completely different – both are screwing the system. One is taking money that they are not entitled to and the other is not paying what they should – both are screwing the system but there is a common attitude out there like this that people doing cash jobs are somehow less of a thief than a dole swindler or a common bag snatcher.”

I'd take serious issue with this. Hypotethically speaking, if I worked 40+ hours a week and payed ludicrous taxes on my earnings each and every week (as I do) then what the hell gives this wonderful country of ours the right to take half of what I earn by spending a Friday night freezing under a neighbours car for an effective rate of 5e per hour?

And not only that but then to be told that I am as bad as a dole swindler or a common bag snatcher for my efforts?

It is nobody's business what I do with my spare time. If I choose to use it to put in the graft and make myself a few extra euro than that's my right. Perhaps you would prefer I jack the job, sell the house and sign on? Sure il have a new house handed to me in no time along with a medical card and the rest all thanks to that sap working away paying his taxes.

Unfortunatly we don't live in some utopia that Sinn Fein would have us beleive where tax is collected for the good of every citizen. Taxes are pissed away left right and centre by incompetent fools in government and end up being used to house, clothe and feed the dredges of society who copped on many moons ago that this is not a country that rewards hard work. So no thank you id be inclined to keep my extra 30e and spend it on my own family.

12-06-2014 06:11PM

Think it's probably the only part of the economy that is still working, keeping money circulating around communities that would otherwise have shut down completely, all be on the dole or have emigrated.

Bog Standard User wrote: »

reduce taxes on items such as vat, fuel, tobacco & alcohol and there wouldnt be much of a need for a black economy

Reduce taxes...Period!

Much of the black economy would disappear. Ireland proved that in the last recession, and was applauded for it worldwide, reducing tax's removes much of the incentive to avoid payment and increases the tax take.

Heard a discussion on the radio about this time last year estimation that 19% of the economy was black. Not just your painter, plumber, trades etc. but doctors, dentist, solicitors, estate agents.. the works.

Interesting link here, from last year.

http://trueeconomics.blogspot.no/2013/11/irelands-black-economy-sunday-times.html

What they call the shadow economy estimated at EUR20 billion/year. With tax losses way exceeding all the austerity cuts.

kippy · 12-06-2014 07:54PM

323 wrote: »

Think it's probably the only part of the economy that is still working, keeping money circulating around communities that would otherwise have shut down completely, all be on the dole or have emigrated.

Reduce taxes...Period!

Much of the black economy would disappear. Ireland proved that in the last recession, and was applauded for it worldwide, reducing tax's removes much of the incentive to avoid payment and increases the tax take.

Heard a discussion on the radio about this time last year estimation that 19% of the economy was black. Not just your painter, plumber, trades etc. but doctors, dentist, solicitors, estate agents.. the works.

Interesting link here, from last year.

http://trueeconomics.blogspot.no/2013/11/irelands-black-economy-sunday-times.html

What they call the shadow economy estimated at EUR20 billion/year. With tax losses way exceeding all the austerity cuts.

You think there wasnt a black economy in the 'boom'? If there wasnt it wasnt because of low taxes.

Tail Docker · 12-06-2014 08:13PM

As an example, I sold one of my vans - there was no way it was going to pass a DOE without a lot of work. A lad I know bought it. I'll contrast his existence with mine.

Me, I wouldn't chance a van with no doe, it would need tax too, and when I am driving it, my mileage is getting recorded, whatever I earn is getting logged and goes straight into the company account - no wiggles, dodges or schnides, all taxes due are paid, including VAT. I get paid a wage by the company, on which there's tax, prsi, blah, blah. I pay all my own bills like all the other regular joes, house, tv, car whatever - so far so normal.

Lad who bought van, he rolls different. He's been driving it now for a couple of years, untroubled by doe tests, road-tax or white diesel. These are seemingly optional. He uses it to work out of, full time, doing nixers. He is also drawing the dole, as is his partner, who also works pretty much full time. They rent a house belonging to another lad I know, and receive €650 a month rent-supplement, leaving them to pay the additional €50... It's a nice, big, detached house. They also get 2 lots of childrens allowance. She drives a nice big car too btw. But officially, they don't live together, as then she wouldn't get the single parents allowance and all that entails..fcuk me, does it ever end??

Black economy? Looks to be doing alright as it happens. Are they alone in this? Are they feck, I know loads others doing the same. I believe that fires me smoothly into the category of "one of the mugs". BTW, I firmly believe that - by playing by the rules and paying what's due, you are one of the mugs. Literally.

sock puppet · 12-06-2014 08:48PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

A registered contractor doing a job off the books isn't black economy.

Very little wiggle room for the black economy these days, it's consigned to the history books mostly.

Surely the trade in drugs and prostitution is bigger if anything.

Shakespeare's Sister · 12-06-2014 10:03PM

If someone's on the dole and gets the very odd nixer every few weeks while looking for full-time work the whole time, fair play to them - pretty miserable to begrudge them that. They'd get grief for sitting on their asses and not doing that nixer.

oceanman · 12-06-2014 11:09PM

Coat22 wrote: »

Right - anoybody on this board thats not a student?

Valetta wrote: »

[It took me approx. 5 seconds to find the above link.QUOTE]

Well done you - of course I can do it myself (who's to say I haven't) but I am talking about a public awarness campaign. Make it clear to Bill & Betty who are struggling to pay water charges etc that actually is partly because Steve, the lovely lad from next door who does all his jobs for cash isn’t paying his way. Make it as socially unacceptable for lads who are known to be on dole turing up for a few pints in their work close as it now is for them to then hop in the car and drive home locked.

The Germans (who some reason we try not to be like) would sell their own mother up the river if they thought it meant they were paying more in tax because she was avoiding it. We should be doing the same rather than just complaining about water/property/bin/tv charges.

who in their right mind would want to be like the Germans!!

Busted Flat. · 12-06-2014 11:12PM

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

A cashless society would remove the black economy. Would be interesting to live in as a PAYE worker or above board self employed.

That's what caused the black economy, people are cashless due to the destruction of or country by the fat cats with 2/3/4/5 pensions.

Coat22 · 13-06-2014 09:51AM

JC01 wrote: »

I'd take serious issue with this. Hypotethically speaking, if I worked 40+ hours a week and payed ludicrous taxes on my earnings each and every week (as I do) then what the hell gives this wonderful country of ours the right to take half of what I earn by spending a Friday night freezing under a neighbours car for an effective rate of 5e per hour?

And not only that but then to be told that I am as bad as a dole swindler or a common bag snatcher for my efforts?

It is nobody's business what I do with my spare time. If I choose to use it to put in the graft and make myself a few extra euro than that's my right. Perhaps you would prefer I jack the job, sell the house and sign on? Sure il have a new house handed to me in no time along with a medical card and the rest all thanks to that sap working away paying his taxes.

Unfortunatly we don't live in some utopia that Sinn Fein would have us beleive where tax is collected for the good of every citizen. Taxes are pissed away left right and centre by incompetent fools in government and end up being used to house, clothe and feed the dredges of society who copped on many moons ago that this is not a country that rewards hard work. So no thank you id be inclined to keep my extra 30e and spend it on my own family.

Completely agree with you in terms of how tax money is pissed away frivolously without any real accountability and I’m not talking about a mechanic doing an odd job here and there BUT I and many thousands like me also work Friday nights (and about one in every six weekends) for NO pay as I am a salaried worker. IF things go really well, the business does well and I get noticed by my boss I might get a bonus for my efforts (which effectively is pay for all the unpaid overtime). I pay 52% tax on every penny of this. Exact same as your nixxer on a Friday night except I get it (if I’m lucky – BIG if) in a lump sum once a year. So to somehow suggest you should be treated differently because you “give up your spare time” (to those on dole the 40 hours a week you’re spending in taxed employment is “giving up your spare time”) is a feeble argument.

I don’t begrudge anyone making a few quid from the odd cash job if it comes along – fair play to you. I am talking about those who have as good as full time enterprises earning hundreds per week who then claim poverty and get every benefit going.

I don’t want to generalise but anyone working shift work (Gardai, Firemen, factory workers) has huge potential to earn cash work on the 3 or 4 days a week they’re not rostered on and most do. I know of one arm of the state in Dublin where they all work as DJs in their off time. IF a gig happens to inconveniently be scheduled for a time they’re supposed to be working they simply call in sick. Their mate is then called in on overtime to cover. Everyone (except me and you) wins. The walk away with €250 per night sitting playing records in a pub but then poor mouth about being asked to pay for their water / contribute to their final salary pensions etc.

€20 BN black ecomony? At 52% tax that’s €10.5BN! The water charges will bring in what? €0.5 BN? IF politicians were serious about sorting this out we could all have free water, no property tax, cheaper fuel, about 10% less income tax – but no politician is going to risk votes by taking this one on. Sure the coping classes will sort it out for them by paying another few quid.

Shiraz 4.99 · 13-06-2014 10:33AM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

A registered contractor doing a job off the books isn't black economy.

Very little wiggle room for the black economy these days, it's consigned to the history books mostly.

I've never read a more naive post on boards

Shiraz 4.99 · 13-06-2014 10:43AM

OP, that's very saintly in theory & we all aspire to those standards.
I consider myself fully tax compliant cause I work a full-time PAYE job, no wiggle room there, this means I pay my fair share as far as I understand it.
If I take a closer look at my own circumstance I'm as dirty as they come.
I fix PC's & Laptops in my spare time, nothing major, pulls in about 80 quid a week.
Our kids are minded by a neighbour who also signs on, not my problem, she's saves me a fortune on full creche fees & takes the kids when they're sick, so much handier too for dropping off/picking up.
My wife runs her own business where figures have to be trimmed every year to keep her under the VAT threshold.

But I pay my fair share so I'm good, do you see ?

Coat22 · 13-06-2014 10:50AM

Shiraz 4.99 wrote: »

OP, that's very saintly in theory & we all aspire to those standards.
I consider myself fully tax compliant cause I work a full-time PAYE job, no wiggle room there, this means I pay my fair share as far as I understand it.
If I take a closer look at my own circumstance I'm as dirty as they come.
I fix PC's & Laptops in my spare time, nothing major, pulls in about 80 quid a week.
Our kids are minded by a neighbour who also signs on, not my problem, she's saves me a fortune on full creche fees & takes the kids when they're sick, so much handier too for dropping off/picking up.
My wife runs her own business where figures have to be trimmed every year to keep her under the VAT threshold.

But I pay my fair share so I'm good, do you see ?

....but if everyone was paying ALL the tax they were supposed to be paying then there could be free child care for your childreen, a more affluent society where your wifes business would blow the VAT threshold apart etc.

The downside for you would be a more affluent society would mean newer laptops and less nixxers fixing old ones but you can't have it all I suppose.

Shiraz 4.99 · 13-06-2014 11:11AM

Coat22 wrote: »

....but if everyone was paying ALL the tax they were supposed to be paying then there could be free child care for your childreen, a more affluent society where your wifes business would blow the VAT threshold apart etc.

The downside for you would be a more affluent society would mean newer laptops and less nixxers fixing old ones but you can't have it all I suppose.

But we're Irish & your tax Utopia wouldn't suit our cute whore mé féin mentaility

Ray Palmer · 13-06-2014 11:21AM

Magaggie wrote: »

If someone's on the dole and gets the very odd nixer every few weeks while looking for full-time work the whole time, fair play to them - pretty miserable to begrudge them that. They'd get grief for sitting on their asses and not doing that nixer.

Well say if you are a business owner who pays all your taxes and are being undercut by people doing the jobs cash in hand without any insurance or qualification? Would you not be annoyed somebody is taking work away from you?
You are calling being fair and regulations begrudgery. I don't begrudge people making money but cheating both the dole and businesses along with safety issues is not to begrudge them.

The Dagda · 13-06-2014 11:25AM

Coat22 wrote: »

....but if everyone was paying ALL the tax they were supposed to be paying then there could be free child care for your childreen, a more affluent society where your wifes business would blow the VAT threshold apart etc.

The downside for you would be a more affluent society would mean newer laptops and less nixxers fixing old ones but you can't have it all I suppose.

During the Celtic Tiger the state had too much money, and with all that money did we get all the services required? Did we f*ck!!!

The state already has enough income to provide ALL the services needed. The problem is the gross waste in the system.

People believing that the state needs more money is part of the problem. The problem is not on the income side.

Black Economy

Comments