Black Economy

Coat22 · 12-06-2014 12:27PM #1

Will a government ever have the balls to stand up and tackle the issue of the black economy in Ireland as a means to raising extra revenue / reducing welfare costs?

I suspect the answer is never. Sure they will all make sound bites and release the occasional story about how one criminal was caught drawing welfare while living in Dalkey and holidaying in the Seychelles which they know will draw the praise of the masses reading their Evening Herald but when will they get serious about it??

I pay 52% on every penny extra I dare earn over €41,800. This is a joint income as my wife is not working. Before people jump up and down about how wealthy that makes me €41,800 equates to a net wage of €2,760 a month. Out of that has to come mortgage payments (luckily just under €1,500 a month) and all the other bills life throws at you (thankfully no car loans). If I have the drive to work harder (which I do) and earn a bonus for my efforts I will take home 48% of what I’m paid. I’ve learnt to live with this.

However what I am struggling with is that while I’m working 60 hours a week to earn a small bonus which might pay for new blinds, a bit of paint for the walls or maybe even a short holiday (and contribute more to the tax revenue of the state) a good chunk of my neighbours stuff their back pockets with nixxers and moan at having to pay water charges. Others work away happily on building sites etc (yes there are still some) and yet are down the post office on Saturday morning collecting their dole.

The next thing on the horizon I am quite sure will be means tested child benefit. In such a scenario I would surely lose the €280 a month we receive for raising our kids to contribute to paying off the national debt in 20 years time. My neighbours with their “official” incomes being short of mine would continue to get theirs (and probably some family income supplement on top of that). Marxism would be complete and their kids will flourish as mine go without.

What I would like to see is a government getting serious about tax evasion / welfare fraud. Launch a campaign. Have a confidential number and encourage reporting. Hire (yes hire!) staff to go after it (will pay for itself in the first week). 20 years ago everyone thought insurance fraud was acceptable because the insurance companies were screwing everyone. These days they advertise for whistle blowers and it is deemed as a criminal activity (which it always was). The potential is enormous. Much bigger than any water charges or TV licence evaders. But of course it would be political suicide as the masses revolt about how they are taking “their money”. Let them pay 52% tax on their nixxers, level the playing field and then look at means testing child benefit.

But it will never happen.

BMJD · 12-06-2014 12:37PM

cool story bro

suicide_circus · 12-06-2014 12:42PM

Report those you know to be working while claiming full dole or else dont bother complaining.

Renegade Mechanic · 12-06-2014 12:43PM

EXCUSE ME. Its "coloured economy" you racist bastard!

SEPT 23 1989 · 12-06-2014 12:45PM

I think you will find that The State is being absolutely ruthless with people claiming or trying to defraud anything from them at the moment

Valetta · 12-06-2014 12:45PM

https://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/secure/ReportFraud.aspx

It took me approx. 5 seconds to find the above link.

OP, have you reported your neighbours?

If not, then you are a big part of the problem.

BMJD · 12-06-2014 12:45PM

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

EXCUSE ME. Its "coloured economy" you racist bastard!

WRONG!!! It's "all the same under the skin economy" :rolleyes:

Pinch Flat · 12-06-2014 12:46PM

Want to know the answer? Send me €100 cash and I'll tell you. If it has to go through the books, €123 incl VAT @ 23%.

waraf · 12-06-2014 12:50PM

It's almost impossible to eradicate though because we're all full of morals until it comes time to shell out our hard earned cash for them.

For example, a good mate of mine is a carpenter and most of his work comprises of small jobs around the town he lives in. He tried to go legit and add VAT to every job he did but he found that he was losing a lot of work cause his competitors were offering to do the same jobs VAT free (~20% saving to the customer). Very few people are going to turn down a 20% reduction on a small carpentry job

tobsey · 12-06-2014 12:53PM

I agree completely OP. We just got work done on our house which included plumbing, electrics, painting and decorating and general building work. Every single quote we got was under the condition that it was a cash price. If we wanted to go by the book it would be extra to cover the VAT and presumably their declared income for tax purposes.

I do have sympathy for some of these people who have had their incomes decimated and probably are struggling, but the fact is every single penny I earn is recorded and taxable. It should be the same for all.

tobsey · 12-06-2014 12:57PM

waraf wrote: »

It's almost impossible to eradicate though because we're all full of morals until it comes time to shell out our hard earned cash for them.

For example, a good mate of mine is a carpenter and most of his work comprises of small jobs around the town he lives in. He tried to go legit and add VAT to every job he did but he found that he was losing a lot of work cause his competitors were offering to do the same jobs VAT free (~20% saving to the customer). Very few people are going to turn down a 20% reduction on a small carpentry job

The home improvement tax scheme will go some way to improve this but the problem is it only becomes worth people's while to use it when they are spending thousands. You don't get the tax credits until 2015 either so people would much rather pay 200 quid today than 240 and wait until next year to get the 40 back in tax credits.

It's different if you're paying 20,000 out and financing it with a loan because then at least the tax credits will soften the blow of the loan repayments.

It's no use to small independent contractors like your friend though.

The Backwards Man · 12-06-2014 12:58PM

A registered contractor doing a job off the books isn't black economy.

Very little wiggle room for the black economy these days, it's consigned to the history books mostly.

SEPT 23 1989 · 12-06-2014 12:59PM

tobsey wrote: »

I agree completely OP. We just got work done on our house which included plumbing, electrics, painting and decorating and general building work. Every single quote we got was under the condition that it was a cash price. If we wanted to go by the book it would be extra to cover the VAT and presumably their declared income for tax purposes.

I do have sympathy for some of these people who have had their incomes decimated and probably are struggling, but the fact is every single penny I earn is recorded and taxable. It should be the same for all.

what good is a big VAT receipt to you if you are a PAYE worker?

tobsey · 12-06-2014 01:04PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

what good is a big VAT receipt to you if you are a PAYE worker?

It's no use to me except that I know the contractor is declaring the income.

SEPT 23 1989 · 12-06-2014 01:06PM

tobsey wrote: »

It's no use to me except that I know the contractor is declaring the income.

so you want to pay VAT even though you have no way of reclaiming it or offsetting it?

kippy · 12-06-2014 01:06PM

waraf wrote: »

It's almost impossible to eradicate though because we're all full of morals until it comes time to shell out our hard earned cash for them.

For example, a good mate of mine is a carpenter and most of his work comprises of small jobs around the town he lives in. He tried to go legit and add VAT to every job he did but he found that he was losing a lot of work cause his competitors were offering to do the same jobs VAT free (~20% saving to the customer). Very few people are going to turn down a 20% reduction on a small carpentry job

This is the thing I suppose.
Ultimately those working in the "black economy" are cheaper to use than those that aren't.
For those of us that are "above board" with our affairs, getting work done can cost a fair chunk of our salaries, if we can get it cheaper then generally we are ok to turn a blind eye to it.
Were it not for the black economy a lot of these jobs would cost a lot more for us to do.

Thats not excusing it, just pointing out why a black economy is a part and parcel of any economy.

tobsey · 12-06-2014 01:07PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

so you want to pay VAT even though you have no way of reclaiming it or offsetting it?

No of course I don't want to pay it. Similarly I don't want to pay 52% of some of my income in taxes, but that's the way it is.

Joe prim · 12-06-2014 01:09PM

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

EXCUSE ME. Its "coloured economy" you racist bastard!

Err..."new Irish" economy, if you don't mind.:D

wilser · 12-06-2014 01:15PM

OP start cutting grass or washing windows at the weekend then you get to keep 100% of what you earn

Lenin Skynard · 12-06-2014 01:22PM

Coat22 wrote: »

my neighbours

You could always throw up some net curtains while you save up for the blinds OP. It might help with the compulsion to snoop out the window.

Specialun · 12-06-2014 01:34PM

Their own parties/Friends are as corrupt as them....

Renegade Mechanic · 12-06-2014 01:49PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

A registered contractor doing a job off the books isn't black economy.

Very little wiggle room for the black economy these days, it's consigned to the history books mostly.

Its downsized naturally as more things have become allowed/widely available in the country. There was a time not ages ago when condoms had to be smuggled in! But Its still very much there if youre up to no good:D

Coat22 · 12-06-2014 02:07PM

Right - anoybody on this board thats not a student?

Valetta wrote: »

[It took me approx. 5 seconds to find the above link.QUOTE]

Well done you - of course I can do it myself (who's to say I haven't) but I am talking about a public awarness campaign. Make it clear to Bill & Betty who are struggling to pay water charges etc that actually is partly because Steve, the lovely lad from next door who does all his jobs for cash isn’t paying his way. Make it as socially unacceptable for lads who are known to be on dole turing up for a few pints in their work close as it now is for them to then hop in the car and drive home locked.

The Germans (who some reason we try not to be like) would sell their own mother up the river if they thought it meant they were paying more in tax because she was avoiding it. We should be doing the same rather than just complaining about water/property/bin/tv charges.

Coat22 · 12-06-2014 02:08PM

Right - anoybody on this board thats not a student?

"It took me approx. 5 seconds to find the above link"

Well done you - of course I can do it myself (who's to say I haven't) but I am talking about a public awarness campaign. Make it clear to Bill & Betty who are struggling to pay water charges etc that actually is partly because Steve, the lovely lad from next door who does all his jobs for cash isn’t paying his way. Make it as socially unacceptable for lads who are known to be on dole turing up for a few pints in their work close as it now is for them to then hop in the car and drive home locked.

The Germans (who some reason we try not to be like) would sell their own mother up the river if they thought it meant they were paying more in tax because she was avoiding it. We should be doing the same rather than just complaining about water/property/bin/tv charges.

Coat22 · 12-06-2014 02:09PM

Stupid IE 1.0

SEPT 23 1989 · 12-06-2014 02:14PM

Coat22 wrote: »

Right - anoybody on this board thats not a student?

"It took me approx. 5 seconds to find the above link"

Well done you - of course I can do it myself (who's to say I haven't) but I am talking about a public awarness campaign. Make it clear to Bill & Betty who are struggling to pay water charges etc that actually is partly because Steve, the lovely lad from next door who does all his jobs for cash isn’t paying his way. Make it as socially unacceptable for lads who are known to be on dole turing up for a few pints in their work close as it now is for them to then hop in the car and drive home locked.

The Germans (who some reason we try not to be like) would sell their own mother up the river if they thought it meant they were paying more in tax because she was avoiding it. We should be doing the same rather than just complaining about water/property/bin/tv charges.

And partly because Stefan the lovely bondholder from Stuttgart was paid

Coat22 · 12-06-2014 02:19PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

And partly because Stefan the lovely bondholder from Stuttgart was paid

So this excuses Steve from not paying his way? You're what? 25? Coem back to me when you have a job, a mortgage and a family in 10 years time and see how much you care about bondholders etc then.

12-06-2014 02:23PM

Nobody working in a business where cash based work is available is declaring all their income.

Anybody saying they would do any different in the same situation is a fool or is lying.

Coat22 · 12-06-2014 02:26PM

Ronan Raspy Sunlight wrote: »

Nobody working in a business where cash based work is available is declaring all their income.

Anybody saying they would do any different in the same situation is a fool or is lying.

Agreed – but in any other grown up country the authorities would at least me making an effort to sniff it out

The Backwards Man · 12-06-2014 02:30PM

Ronan Raspy Sunlight wrote: »

Nobody working in a business where cash based work is available is declaring all their income.

Anybody saying they would do any different in the same situation is a fool or is lying.

Heh, some us are over declaring because the tax man would never believe we could survive on so little.

Valetta · 12-06-2014 02:33PM

Coat22 wrote: »

Right - anoybody on this board thats not a student?

"It took me approx. 5 seconds to find the above link"

Well done you - of course I can do it myself (who's to say I haven't) but I am talking about a public awarness campaign.

But have you?

Or are you just another one who want's someone else to do it for you.

Black Economy

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