Looks like Revenue are in a spot of bother

andrewdeerpark · 07-06-2014 11:27PM

Some of the anti-EU rants here are beyond belief, the issue is large corporations like Apple are funneling Billions in earnings through Ireland then washing it though another country and bringing it back (Google the Double Irish and the Dutch Sandwich) in again paying an effective tax rate far below the 12% corporation TAX rate.

If they paid 12% no one would have an issue, the US congress estimated Apple are paying an effective tax rate of between 4-6%!!! Ridiculous, and as other people said this causes more taxes on ordinary workers.

Tarzana · 07-06-2014 11:31PM

Captain Chaos wrote: »

If these Multinationals had to pay all their tax they would pull out of Ireland full stop. They are only here for the tax breaks. If they go we'd have even less revenue income.

True, but it is mad Ted that USC takes in as much as corporation tax in this country.

awec · 07-06-2014 11:31PM

jobeenfitz wrote: »

The less tax these big corporations pay the more the workers will have to pay.

The more tax these big corporations pay the less workers there will be to pay.

If the cost of doing business in Ireland goes up via tax then savings would be made elsewhere - jobs and investment.

These companies bring thousands of jobs and pretty well paid ones at that. The people who work in these jobs pay income tax - a majority of them I'd imagine in the 40% tax bracket.

Corp tax is just an easy target for people to get flustered about because they see that 12% figure.

andrewdeerpark · 07-06-2014 11:35PM

awec wrote: »

The more tax these big corporations pay the less workers there will be to pay.

If the cost of doing business in Ireland goes up via tax then savings would be made elsewhere - jobs and investment.

These companies bring thousands of jobs and pretty well paid ones at that. The people who work in these jobs pay income tax - a majority of them I'd imagine in the 40% tax bracket.

Corp tax is just an easy target for people to get flustered about because they see that 12% figure.

The issue is they are not even paying close to 12%....

My name is URL · 07-06-2014 11:35PM

awec wrote: »

Corp tax is just an easy target for people to get flustered about because they see that 12% figure.

Do you think it's unreasonable to expect companies to pay that 12%?

Because that's what the EC's complaint is. That they are not effectively paying that much.

dissed doc · 07-06-2014 11:37PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This whole corporation tax business is f*cking ridiculous. If other countries for one reason or another can't compete with Ireland, tough sh!t - there are plenty of strings countries like Germany pull with regard to the ECB which Irish people would love to do something about but we can't. This is something we have control over which they don't, so unless they want to compromise on bank debt and bondholders, they can f*ck right off.

I don't think it's a good policy for the government to be basing our economy on potentially alterable tax policies for (predominantly) US multinationals. They will move wherever they get the best deal. If that changes (and it can change) there is too little actual industry to support normal (minimal) services.

Otherwise it's just bravado, saying other countries get better deals, pull strings as well. It's simply stupid to have a country depending on a trickle of multinationals. We need actual products to sell, high quality, small scale as we are not really an industrialised country.

Instead the policies are decided by pissed up politicians at some parties in the US, meeting representatives from Dell or Microsoft and signing deals where the country long term loses out as we lack the development of local industry and short term we get some jabs and jabs are important if you want de votes.

awec · 07-06-2014 11:41PM

My name is URL wrote: »

Do you think it's unreasonable to expect companies to pay that 12%?

Because that's what the EC's complaint is. That they are not effectively paying that much.

The EC complains about the 12% as well.

The ECs real complaint is our corp tax in general and the fact that it brings money to Ireland as opposed to some other EU countries.

The system as it is today, complete with the loopholes is what brings investment to Ireland and is what keeps thousands of jobs here.

This "corp tax loopholes cause the average joe to pay more tax" is pretty mythical. Do you think if they closed the loopholes that income tax, PRSI, USC or whatever other tax you pay would be cut at all?

andrewdeerpark · 07-06-2014 11:41PM

My name is URL wrote: »

Do you think it's unreasonable to expect companies to pay that 12%?

Because that's what the EC's complaint is. That they are not effectively paying that much.

What these corporations are doing is on a par to the mob in Vegas in the 60's laundering their money through casinos except they were amateurs, the new breed of corporate accountants, bankers, lawyers and schemers are smart, well financed and far more powerful. For tax purposes some of these companies are stateless ....

awec · 07-06-2014 11:44PM

dissed doc wrote: »

I don't think it's a good policy for the government to be basing our economy on potentially alterable tax policies for (predominantly) US multinationals. They will move wherever they get the best deal. If that changes (and it can change) there is too little actual industry to support normal (minimal) services.

Otherwise it's just bravado, saying other countries get better deals, pull strings as well. It's simply stupid to have a country depending on a trickle of multinationals. We need actual products to sell, high quality, small scale as we are not really an industrialised country.

Instead the policies are decided by pissed up politicians at some parties in the US, meeting representatives from Dell or Microsoft and signing deals where the country long term loses out as we lack the development of local industry and short term we get some jabs and jabs are important if you want de votes.

Short term?

Dell and Microsoft have been in Ireland for over 25 years (Dell might be just under 25).

Apple has been here over 30.

Some "short term" to get some jobs, eh?

andrewdeerpark · 07-06-2014 11:46PM

awec wrote: »

The EC complains about the 12% as well.

The ECs real complaint is our corp tax in general and the fact that it brings money to Ireland as opposed to some other EU countries.

The system as it is today, complete with the loopholes is what brings investment to Ireland and is what keeps thousands of jobs here.

This "corp tax loopholes cause the average joe to pay more tax" is pretty mythical. Do you think if they closed the loopholes that income tax, PRSI, USC or whatever other tax you pay would be cut at all?

So TAX avoidance is ok evasion is not.

It seems to me the TAX evasion is what little people do and get caught with penalties, tax avoidance is when the corporate accountants and lawyers are cleverer and more powerful that the tax authorities and tell them to head off....

andrewdeerpark · 07-06-2014 11:50PM

awec wrote: »

Short term?

Dell and Microsoft have been in Ireland for over 25 years (Dell might be just under 25).

Apple has been here over 30.

Some "short term" to get some jobs, eh?

Here the price...
Apple paid $36m tax on $7.11bn profits at Irish unit

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/apple-paid-36m-tax-on-7-11bn-profits-at-irish-unit-1.1715727

Is that worth letting slide? Is would call that taking the p**s.

Tarzana · 07-06-2014 11:54PM

dissed doc wrote: »

I don't think it's a good policy for the government to be basing our economy on potentially alterable tax policies for (predominantly) US multinationals. They will move wherever they get the best deal. If that changes (and it can change) there is too little actual industry to support normal (minimal) services.

This. It's a bit precarious.

Tarzana · 07-06-2014 11:54PM

awec wrote: »

This "corp tax loopholes cause the average joe to pay more tax" is pretty mythical. Do you think if they closed the loopholes that income tax, PRSI, USC or whatever other tax you pay would be cut at all?

USC maybe.

cabledude · 07-06-2014 11:57PM

If the EU (German's and Austrian's) want us to give up our tax regime they should be told to fu5k right off.

Slash rates to 6.25% to really pi55 them off.

Tail Docker · 07-06-2014 11:58PM

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Here the price...
Apple paid $36m tax on $7.11bn profits at Irish unit

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/apple-paid-36m-tax-on-7-11bn-profits-at-irish-unit-1.1715727

Is that worth letting slide? Is would call that taking the p**s.

Obama agrees. And when Obama asks, Obama receives. This could/will change - watch this space.

Tarzana wrote: »

This. It's a bit precarious.

It's the same as basing any investment on a Tax-break, it's always precarious unless the business makes sense with or without the break. Breaks end at the stroke of a pen. Our tax status is a brief phase in our history. Phases pass..

andrewdeerpark · 08-06-2014 12:02AM

This is a global problem, some here just want an anti-EU rant without any attempt at a valid argument or questioning the morality of wholesale global corporation tax evasion denying Trillions in revenue to ALL governments.

No point engaging with such individuals, best left in their ignorance.

Iwasfrozen · 08-06-2014 12:07AM

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

This is a global problem, some here just want an anti-EU rant without any attempt at a valid argument or questioning the morality of wholesale global corporation tax evasion denying Trillions in revenue to ALL governments.

No point engaging with such individuals, best left in their ignorance.

Why is this exactly a bad thing? You're basically complaining that trillions (a dubious claim but I'll run with it) are staying in the economy and circling around rather than being absorbed by the government to disappear down the dark hole of inefficient services (hello Dublin Bus) and interest on our bank debts.

sock puppet · 08-06-2014 12:12AM

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

This is a global problem, some here just want an anti-EU rant without any attempt at a valid argument or questioning the morality of wholesale global corporation tax evasion denying Trillions in revenue to ALL governments.

No point engaging with such individuals, best left in their ignorance.

Yeah they EU are clearly in the right here.

I mean, when an Irish politician introduces tax breaks to incentivise companies to invest, they should be investigated. When a politician from Luxembourg introduces much more aggressive tax breaks, they should be made president of the European Commision. Such fairness and impartiality from the EU is to be lauded.

andrewdeerpark · 08-06-2014 12:14AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why is this exactly a bad thing? You're basically complaining that trillions (a dubious claim but I'll run with it) are staying in the economy and circling around rather than being absorbed by the government to disappear down the dark hole of inefficient services (hello Dublin Bus) and interest on our bank debts.

Apple has approx $140Billion US in cash just sitting their as of last year (it has grown since). Is that effective use of money?

Would some of that not be better invested in schools, health, transport and infrastructure? Not all TAX is bad we need taxation for our services unless you want to privatize and put a price on everything (a different argument outside this topic).

I accept some public service inefficiencies however private sector has issues just look are American healthcare and the mess that is in..

Tail Docker · 08-06-2014 12:19AM

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Apple has approx $140Billion US in cash just sitting their as of last year (it has grown since). Is that effective use of money?

Would some of that not be better invested in schools, health, transport and infrastructure? Not all TAX is bad we need taxation for our services unless you want to privatize and put a price on everything (a different argument outside this topic).

I accept some public service inefficiencies however private sector has issues just look are American healthcare and the mess that is in..

Cash stockpiling is currently one of the greatest global problems we face. It is concentrating liquidity into the hands of a tiny few, to the detriment of the many. Piketty has a view on it. The old quote that money is like manure, pile it up and it stinks, spread it around and it causes growth, is very apt.

andrewdeerpark · 08-06-2014 12:19AM

sock puppet wrote: »

Yeah they EU are clearly in the right here.

I mean, when an Irish politician introduces tax breaks to incentivise companies to invest, they should be investigated. When a politician from Luxembourg introduces much more aggressive tax breaks, they should be made president of the European Commision. Such fairness and impartiality from the EU is to be lauded.

Their is no evidence that Ireland is being singled out Netherlands included aswell. The EU engages in investigations across a lot of countries and sectors all the time, argument does not make a lot of sense.

Ireland is one of the worse offenders and it is the US that kicked the whole thing off with congressional hearings about the low corporation TAX being paid by US companies funneling money through Ireland. Google John McCain on it...

Iwasfrozen · 08-06-2014 12:27AM

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Apple has approx $140Billion US in cash just sitting their as of last year (it has grown since). Is that effective use of money?

Would some of that not be better invested in schools, health, transport and infrastructure? Not all TAX is bad we need taxation for our services unless you want to privatize and put a price on everything (a different argument outside this topic).

I accept some public service inefficiencies however private sector has issues just look are American healthcare and the mess that is in..

I don't know what they plan on doing with their 140 billion (which you didn't back up btw) so I can't answer that question.

The argument isn't as clear cut as you make it out to be, Apple with lower taxes is at liberty to raise wages for their employees at attract better talent, raising aggregate demand in the country and benefiting the government indirectly through increased revenue.

Or they may decide to invest the money into R&D to produce new inventions that make our lives better.

When you're talking about taxation always remember money always comes from somewhere, if you take money from person A to provide mostly inefficient public services you frustrate person A's plans to invest that money to grow their business. Apply this over the whole economy and you'll find that higher taxes = lower growth.

steddyeddy · 08-06-2014 12:28AM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This whole corporation tax business is f*cking ridiculous. If other countries for one reason or another can't compete with Ireland, tough sh!t - there are plenty of strings countries like Germany pull with regard to the ECB which Irish people would love to do something about but we can't. This is something we have control over which they don't, so unless they want to compromise on bank debt and bondholders, they can f*ck right off.

I agree 100%

Piliger · 08-06-2014 12:32AM

dissed doc wrote: »

I don't think it's a good policy for the government to be basing our economy on potentially alterable tax policies for (predominantly) US multinationals. They will move wherever they get the best deal. If that changes (and it can change) there is too little actual industry to support normal (minimal) services.

Well we have proved you are wrong. We have attracted multinational jobs to Ireland that have stayed here for many decades. So "potentially alterable tax policies" have been a huge success.

Otherwise it's just bravado, saying other countries get better deals, pull strings as well. It's simply stupid to have a country depending on a trickle of multinationals. We need actual products to sell, high quality, small scale as we are not really an industrialised country.

And yet we have had far more than a trickle of multinationals. Proving a second time that the policy has worked extremely well.

Instead the policies are decided by pissed up politicians at some parties in the US, meeting representatives from Dell or Microsoft and signing deals where the country long term loses out as we lack the development of local industry and short term we get some jabs and jabs are important if you want de votes.

Where is the evidence of any of this ? How have we lost out from having tens of thousands of people employed for decades, paying huge amounts of taxes, creating tens of thousands more ancillary jobs ?
The truth is that our political decisions have been extraordinarily successful, evidenced by the irritation of France and Germany and some other countries.

Piliger · 08-06-2014 12:34AM

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Apple has approx $140Billion US in cash just sitting their as of last year (it has grown since). Is that effective use of money?

That's their business. They earned it. It's their money to do with what they want to. Unless you want the governments deciding hw much money you are entitled to earn and save ? Is that it ?

Would some of that not be better invested in schools, health, transport and infrastructure? Not all TAX is bad we need taxation for our services unless you want to privatize and put a price on everything (a different argument outside this topic).

That sounds more like an appalling perverted form of stalinism. than anything else.

I accept some public service inefficiencies however private sector has issues just look are American healthcare and the mess that is in..

The American Healthcare is extremely profitable and successful. What are you talking about ?

Piliger · 08-06-2014 12:37AM

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Here the price...
Apple paid $36m tax on $7.11bn profits at Irish unit

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/apple-paid-36m-tax-on-7-11bn-profits-at-irish-unit-1.1715727

Is that worth letting slide? Is would call that taking the p**s.

What a nonsense article built around a completely concocted claim about unquoted Apple accounts.

Is it worth letting what slide exactly ? Are you seriously suggesting that Apple would have continued operating here if higher taxes were announced ? and that ANY additional money would have ensued ? Can anyone be really that naive ?

andrewdeerpark · 08-06-2014 12:39AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't know what they plan on doing with their 140 billion (which you didn't back up btw) so I can't answer that question.

The argument isn't as clear cut as you make it out to be, Apple with lower taxes is at liberty to raise wages for their employees at attract better talent, raising aggregate demand in the country and benefiting the government indirectly through increased revenue.

Or they may decide to invest the money into R&D to produce new inventions that make our lives better.

When you're talking about taxation always remember money always comes from somewhere, if you take money from person A to provide mostly inefficient public services you frustrate person A's plans to invest that money to grow their business. Apply this over the whole economy and you'll find that higher taxes = lower growth.

What is not in dispute is the rise in income inequality and the drop in the standard of living in the developed world since about the 1970's. The power of corporations and the way they play governments off against each other using clever accountants and lawyers is one of the main reasons though corporate profits have never been higher, the TAX take from these corporations is getting lower. Something has to be done GLOBALLY or the system will eventually collapse. Individual workers cannot take more taxation.

You are correct on the higher taxes on work leading to lower growth.

The insular argument its the EU picking on us is nonsense in the global scheme of things.

Tail Docker · 08-06-2014 12:42AM

Piliger wrote: »

What a nonsense article built around a completely concocted claim about unquoted Apple accounts.

Is it worth letting what slide exactly ? Are you seriously suggesting that Apple would have continued operating here if higher taxes were announced ? and that ANY additional money would have ensued ? Can anyone be really that naive ?

Golly gosh Piliger, what socking good points you make old chap, I say, you're awfully clever, aren't you. Good for you I say, good for you. Hooray.

andrewdeerpark · 08-06-2014 12:46AM

Piliger wrote: »

That's their business. They earned it. It's their money to do with what they want to. Unless you want the governments deciding hw much money you are entitled to earn and save ? Is that it ?

That sounds more like an appalling perverted form of stalinism. than anything else.

The American Healthcare is extremely profitable and successful. What are you talking about ?

- The global hoarding of cash by corporations is a serious issue as a previous poster said an excellent book from Thomas Piketty required reading.

- Private sector is not suited to certain tasks as they are not capitalist style profitable ventures.

- As for the American Healthcare system just don't get sick without health insurance and when you are sick expect your insurance to be cancelled if you cost to much, again some more reading required.

Rhys Essien · 08-06-2014 12:46AM

Tail Docker wrote: »

Cash stockpiling is currently one of the greatest global problems we face. It is concentrating liquidity into the hands of a tiny few, to the detriment of the many. Piketty has a view on it. The old quote that money is like manure, pile it up and it stinks, spread it around and it causes growth, is very apt.

I heard recently,something like,the top 80 billionaires in the world are richer combined,than 40% of the worlds population.Fairly sad.

Looks like Revenue are in a spot of bother

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