Society seeing what it wants to see

Semele · 06-06-2014 09:26PM

miss no stars wrote: »

I think you're being a bit unfair. No traveller is prevented from getting work and buying a house or apartment or renting a house or apartment or signing on and being provided with same. No traveller is denied an education at any official level. No traveller is denied healthcare. No traveller is interned and used as slave labour. No traveller's child is left to die and thrown into a septic tank.

That travellers choose to live in high density situations with no permenancy, that they choose to make themselves social outcasts, that they choose not to educate their children - that's on them. Oh and that's what they want official protection to be able to do.

In theory people have choices, but that entirely ignores the impact of the culture we all grow up in and the unseen privileges that people hold. Everyone may legally have the same freedoms and rights, but there are an awful lot more factors at play.

I worked with a traveller family some years back and on the surface they seemed the feckless layabouts of popular culture. But they were horrifically handicapped by their culture. Not a single one of them could read or write, they were ashamed of this and went to great lengths to avoid it being obvious. Sure they could have learned, but that would mean exposing something that was a source of huge shame and vulnerability. Easier to stay in their own culture where they weren't seen as deficient or freakish.

Not being literate barred them from not only most forms of employment, but from participating in the world. Imagine not being able to read a book or a newspaper, or a street sign. Not understanding signs in shops and feeling like an idiot if you have to ask something that to others is obvious...easier to cover that up with belligerence than feel shame. How do you register with a GP or dentist etc when you have no fixed address and avoid any situation where you might have to fill in a form, thus exposing your illiteracy again? How to you apply for a job, or know your rights, or find out how to access help? The world becomes a very small place and you sit on the margins of society, ostensibly equal but practically very much not.

There's an awful lot wrong with traveller culture and I'm no apologist for it. But while I can criticise a whole culture i don't need to lose compassion for individuals within that. Blaming individuals for the problems of the system they are born into is a horribly uncompassionate attitude that maintains the issues more than it helps anyone.

Dan_Solo · 06-06-2014 09:44PM

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

In my primary school we occasionally had traveller children. None of us wanted to play with them because they stank. They stank because they had no access to clean water. We could look down on them and be horrible to them, because the adults didn't stop us. The adults didn't stop us because they had the same attitude to them.

Funny how the recently settled ones stank too, since they had running water like the rest of us.
My theory is they just weren't washing. Every hard stand has running water. Wonder will they be paying the water tax now? :rolleyes:

FullblownRose · 07-06-2014 12:22AM

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

So what do you suggest, taking the kids off them? They have chosen to be a seperate society from the rest of us. They choose to break the law and not send their kids to school. They are entitled to the same medical and welfare services as any settled person. The adults make a choice for their children and the parents are the ones that are the problem.

It won't be long before this thread closes.

I don't know if this is specifically in relation to a particular family, but I wanted to make the general point that in not sending their kids to school they aren't breaking the law.

Also on a different note want to say the attitudes some stuck-up people have in shops to travellers is embarassing and it saddens me that there are such predjudiced people out there in the world.

RobertKK · 07-06-2014 02:21PM

About Society seeing what it wants to see, Catherine Corless has said she has been misrepresented in regards to the Tuam babies.

She told the Irish Times she never said the bodies were dumped in a septic tank.

“I never said to anyone that 800 bodies were dumped in a septic tank. That did not come from me at any point. They are not my words.”

Catherine Corless went onto say with great distress according to the Irish Times:

“I never used that word ‘dumped’, I just wanted those children to be remembered and for their names to go up on a plaque. That was why I did this project, and now it has taken [on] a life of its own.”

Looks like society got a story and gave it wings and a new identity:

Barry Sweeney who discovered the remains of the bodies:

“There were skeletons thrown in there. They were all this way and that way. They weren’t wrapped in anything, and there were no coffins, But there was no way there were 800 skeletons down that hole. Nothing like that number. I don’t know where the papers got that.” How many skeletons does he believe there were? “About 20.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuam-mother-and-baby-home-the-trouble-with-the-septic-tank-story-1.1823393?page=1

So who in society wanted to paint a story of 796 bodies, why did they want people to see something that was not there, when the actual figure was about 40 times less?
If this is true it shows how easy it is to manipulate society to believe something that isn't true, the researcher says she never said they were dumped or dumped into a septic tank.
It still doesn't answer why about 20 bodies were in a hole in the ground, but that is a far different number to 796 dumped in a septic tank.

Society saw what it wanted to see, when according to the researcher and the person who found the bodies, they don't know where the 796 bodies dumped in a septic tank came from.

Like with Travellers, it seems people want to see the worse, they hear stories about Travellers and put them all in the same boat and believe it, they hear 796 bodies dumped in a septic tank and believe it.
It shows how easy it is to make society comply to believe stuff, and not question if the truth is different.

mikemac1 · 07-06-2014 02:31PM

Having fumes around you from burning copper wire can't be healthy.

They were at it in Labre Park, Kylemore Rd earlier this week. Even if it was just paper and wood they were burning it's not fair on neighbours to put up with black smoke in the area.

kneemos · 07-06-2014 02:36PM

RobertKK wrote: »

About Society seeing what it wants to see, Catherine Corless has said she has been misrepresented in regards to the Tuam babies.

She told the Irish Times she never said the bodies were dumped in a septic tank.

Catherine Corless went onto say with great distress according to the Irish Times:

Looks like society got a story and gave it wings and a new identity:

Barry Sweeney who discovered the remains of the bodies:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuam-mother-and-baby-home-the-trouble-with-the-septic-tank-story-1.1823393?page=1

So who in society wanted to paint a story of 796 bodies, why did they want people to see something that was not there, when the actual figure was about 40 times less?
If this is true it shows how easy it is to manipulate society to believe something that isn't true, the researcher says she never said they were dumped or dumped into a septic tank.
It still doesn't answer why about 20 bodies were in a hole in the ground, but that is a far different number to 796 dumped in a septic tank.

Society saw what it wanted to see, when according to the researcher and the person who found the bodies, they don't know where the 796 bodies dumped in a septic tank came from.

Like with Travellers, it seems people want to see the worse, they hear stories about Travellers and put them all in the same boat and believe it, they hear 796 bodies dumped in a septic tank and believe it.
It shows how easy it is to make society comply to believe stuff, and not question if the truth is different.

That's seeing what's reported.

RobertKK · 07-06-2014 02:38PM

mikemac1 wrote: »

Having fumes around you from burning copper wire can't be healthy.

They were at it in Labre Park, Kylemore Rd earlier this week. Even if it was just paper and wood they were burning it's not fair on neighbours to put up with black smoke in the area.

That is true.

Like the rest of society they have some people who are undesirable in what they do, I had personal experience of three who ended up in the Sunday world, I don't want to get into that story but it was around the time of the 2002 world cup, and I'd rather forget it.

suicide_circus · 07-06-2014 02:42PM

RobertKK wrote: »

That is true.

Like the rest of society they have some people who are undesirable in what they do, I had personal experience of three who ended up in the Sunday world, I don't want to get into that story but it was around the time of the 2002 world cup, and I'd rather forget it.

A pet hate of mine is people who hint at having an interesting story and then wont tell you what it is.

RobertKK · 07-06-2014 02:44PM

kneemos wrote: »

That's seeing what's reported.

...and being unquestioning about the truth of it. It is easy to not ask questions and just believe what one is told is the case.

kneemos · 07-06-2014 02:49PM

RobertKK wrote: »

...and being unquestioning about the truth of it. It is easy to not ask questions and just believe what one is told is the case.

Every paper,radio and TV report was giving the same information,naturally people believed it.

RobertKK · 07-06-2014 02:53PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

A pet hate of mine is people who hint at having an interesting story and then wont tell you what it is.

I didn't want to put the story out on a public forum, lets just say they were looking for work, they would give a quote, supply materials, when job was done, they would become threatening and ask for a much higher figure to be paid, very intimidating.
I paid them a little more than they asked for to get rid of them, (and told them I would get the money for them another time) rather than the several thousands extra they looked for.
They rang the next day, looking to see if I had the money, I said "I hadn't and they wouldn't be getting it." They said they would be back to take back the materials they used, I said "fine, you can if you want, the Guards can watch you stealing from me", I was then told to hang myself off a bridge in Kilkenny city, and then he hung up.

About a year later they were in Sunday world after CAB had seized a lot of assets off them.
It was very unpleasant and not something I want to dwell on.

RobertKK · 07-06-2014 02:54PM

kneemos wrote: »

Every paper,radio and TV report was giving the same information,naturally people believed it.

But who is responsible for it?

Pumpkinseeds · 07-06-2014 04:13PM

FullblownRose wrote: »

I don't know if this is specifically in relation to a particular family, but I wanted to make the general point that in not sending their kids to school they aren't breaking the law.

Also on a different note want to say the attitudes some stuck-up people have in shops to travellers is embarassing and it saddens me that there are such predjudiced people out there in the world.

I've read of several cases of traveller parents being taken to court because their kids have poor attendance.

Muise... · 07-06-2014 04:34PM

RobertKK wrote: »

About Society seeing what it wants to see, Catherine Corless has said she has been misrepresented in regards to the Tuam babies.

She told the Irish Times she never said the bodies were dumped in a septic tank.

Catherine Corless went onto say with great distress according to the Irish Times:

Looks like society got a story and gave it wings and a new identity:

Barry Sweeney who discovered the remains of the bodies:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuam-mother-and-baby-home-the-trouble-with-the-septic-tank-story-1.1823393?page=1

So who in society wanted to paint a story of 796 bodies, why did they want people to see something that was not there, when the actual figure was about 40 times less?
If this is true it shows how easy it is to manipulate society to believe something that isn't true, the researcher says she never said they were dumped or dumped into a septic tank.
It still doesn't answer why about 20 bodies were in a hole in the ground, but that is a far different number to 796 dumped in a septic tank.

Society saw what it wanted to see, when according to the researcher and the person who found the bodies, they don't know where the 796 bodies dumped in a septic tank came from.

Like with Travellers, it seems people want to see the worse, they hear stories about Travellers and put them all in the same boat and believe it, they hear 796 bodies dumped in a septic tank and believe it.
It shows how easy it is to make society comply to believe stuff, and not question if the truth is different.

So this thread isn't really about Travellers at all. It was just another sneaky, delusional whatabout. Glad you're owning up to that now.

the_syco · 07-06-2014 04:38PM

RobertKK wrote: »

If not investigate why and find the reasons for it, then implement changes based on the findings and try and lower the mortality figure, then see in three years time after changes have been implemented if the mortality rate is reducing.

What happens when they tell you to funk off?

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

I think if you replaced the words 'travellers' with 'unmarried mothers' you'd be close to the attitude to single mothers in the 50s in Ireland.

Where "unmarried mothers" of the 50's also above the law, could not be prosecuted for trespassing, littering, etc?

kneemos wrote: »

Said twice I don't know,probably difficult to change attitudes I'd imagine.It's the lets ignore it attitude I was rabbitting on about.

The travellers attitudes to education?

Semele wrote: »

I worked with a traveller family some years back and on the surface they seemed the feckless layabouts of popular culture. But they were horrifically handicapped by their culture. Not a single one of them could read or write, they were ashamed of this and went to great lengths to avoid it being obvious. Sure they could have learned, but that would mean exposing something that was a source of huge shame and vulnerability. Easier to stay in their own culture where they weren't seen as deficient or freakish.

Apart from forcing them into camps, and not letting them out until they learnt to read, write, and do some basic math, I can't see it happening.

However, I do have a sadistic way of making them pay for their stay at the halting site; their kids must attend (with 90% attendance) school and achieve good marks or they get thrown out of the halting site.

RobertKK wrote: »

About Society seeing what it wants to see, Catherine Corless has said she has been misrepresented in regards to the Tuam babies.

She told the Irish Times she never said the bodies were dumped in a septic tank.

Derailing your own thread because it'd not going in the direction you wanted it to go? :pac:

ryan101 · 07-06-2014 04:39PM

RobertKK wrote: »

The mortality rate for children of Travellers is 4 times higher for what it is elsewhere in society.
Nothing is being done, they are Travellers and society doesn't care, a lot of people would say they wouldn't want to be living next to a Traveller family.

In 60 years time people will be asking why nothing was done about this disgrace

SeanW · 07-06-2014 04:58PM

ryan101 wrote: »

In 60 years time people will be asking why nothing was done about this disgrace

That's very confident of you to asser what will be thought in 60 years time. Could it also be possible that in 60 years time, the internal causes of this problem within the travelling community will still be on-going?

ryan101 · 07-06-2014 05:13PM

SeanW wrote: »

That's very confident of you to asser what will be thought in 60 years time. Could it also be possible that in 60 years time, the internal causes of this problem within the travelling community will still be on-going?

I don't buy the blame the travelers mentality, the Irish government and the health services have an obligation to bring in any measures they can to reduce this appalling mortality statistic.

kneemos · 07-06-2014 05:19PM

RobertKK wrote: »

About Society seeing what it wants to see, Catherine Corless has said she has been misrepresented in regards to the Tuam babies.

She told the Irish Times she never said the bodies were dumped in a septic tank.

Catherine Corless went onto say with great distress according to the Irish Times:

Looks like society got a story and gave it wings and a new identity:

Barry Sweeney who discovered the remains of the bodies:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuam-mother-and-baby-home-the-trouble-with-the-septic-tank-story-1.1823393?page=1

So who in society wanted to paint a story of 796 bodies, why did they want people to see something that was not there, when the actual figure was about 40 times less?
If this is true it shows how easy it is to manipulate society to believe something that isn't true, the researcher says she never said they were dumped or dumped into a septic tank.
It still doesn't answer why about 20 bodies were in a hole in the ground, but that is a far different number to 796 dumped in a septic tank.

Society saw what it wanted to see, when according to the researcher and the person who found the bodies, they don't know where the 796 bodies dumped in a septic tank came from.

Like with Travellers, it seems people want to see the worse, they hear stories about Travellers and put them all in the same boat and believe it, they hear 796 bodies dumped in a septic tank and believe it.
It shows how easy it is to make society comply to believe stuff, and not question if the truth is different.

Don't know why you're blaming society for believing what waws reported on every form of media here and abroad.Should we not believe anything that we read or hear?

IrishEyes19 · 07-06-2014 05:26PM

I'm going to go out on a limb here but here goes.

Travelling society has free access to many services in this country, they do not want for education, food or housing because the law and the state has ensured they are given the resources. yet many leave school at 16 due to culture.

Again I will state, Im not in any way prejudiced, I take people at face value. But there have been countless crimes against people by certain members of the travelling communities, I can think of a good few attacks and murders alone. Not one member has ever come out and apologised for these attacks or why it is happening. Yet without fail, a spokesperson from the travelling community causes war if even one members is treated differently, and fair enough. Equal rights for all, I have no issues with that.

I have a huge issue with the fact that many ( not all, Im not painting the whole society) travellers scream equal rights and opportunities, yet feel entitled to free benefits) its a very selective equality in my opinion. And it angers me how their crimes have never been appologised for, yet settled people have to get down on hands and knees if they refuse access to a bar or pub due to previous incidences. Responsibility is an important trait and I dont think they have reached or accepted that yet. But of course, its not all members of society. And that goes for settled and travellers.

the_syco · 07-06-2014 05:48PM

ryan101 wrote: »

I don't buy the blame the travelers mentality, the Irish government and the health services have an obligation to bring in any measures they can to reduce this appalling mortality statistic.

The travellers will tell anyone who tries to change their culture to eff off. And they'd need a large culture shift to bring about such change in mortality statistics.

ryan101 · 07-06-2014 05:50PM

the_syco wrote: »

The travellers will tell anyone who tries to change their culture to eff off. And they'd need a large culture shift to bring about such change in mortality statistics.

As I said I don't buy the blame the travelers mentality. The Irish government and the health services still have an obligation to bring in any measures they can to reduce this appalling mortality statistic.

IrishEyes19 · 07-06-2014 05:59PM

ryan101 wrote: »

As I said I don't buy the blame the travelers mentality. The Irish government and the health services still have an obligation to bring in any measures they can to reduce this appalling mortality statistic.

What do you propose they do so?

RobertKK · 07-06-2014 06:07PM

the_syco wrote: »

The travellers will tell anyone who tries to change their culture to eff off. And they'd need a large culture shift to bring about such change in mortality statistics.

Their halting sites could be vastly improved.

http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/kilkenny-news/appalling-conditions-in-st-catherine-s-halting-site-1-3523646

Mr Carty lives in one of 12 trailers on the site along with 69 other people. His trailer is in the shadow of an 10 foot wall that was built to separate St Catherine’s from the Margaret’s field development. The lack of sunlight has resulted in the caravan becoming damp and infested with mildew. There is only cold running water in the caravan and the two wheelchair bound children have to negotiate crude steps made from cinder blocks to enter their home. A second caravan on the site housing a newly married couple and their toddler has no running water and no sewage facilities at all.
The conditions in St Catherine’s Halting site were described as “appalling” at a meeting of a special meeting of the Kilkenny Electoral Area committee of Kilkenny County Council.
Cllr Malolm Noonan (Green) pointed out the absurdity of the situation where there is legislation on the minimum amount of land for each horse that the travellers own but none for the conditions that the Traveller’s themselves live in. “We have legislation for the number of horses per acre, but the reality is that there are 69 souls living on an acre and a hlaf in appalling condition,” he said.
Cllr Andrew McGuinness (Fianna Fail) said that the saga of providing the Travellers with more permanent residence had been dragging on for so long that the Travellers have begun to view it as nothing more than a ‘talking shop. ’ “The Travellers have started to view the Local Traveller Action Committee as nothing more than a talking shop and frankly I’m starting to agree with them,” said Cllr McGuinness.

It seems horses according to the rest of the article is an area that is causing problems, in terms of finding housing that can accommodate horses.

RobertKK · 07-06-2014 06:08PM

Muise... wrote: »

So this thread isn't really about Travellers at all. It was just another sneaky, delusional whatabout. Glad you're owning up to that now.

Society sees what it wants to see.

As you do in this thread.

comongethappy · 07-06-2014 06:13PM

RobertKK wrote: »

It seems horses according to the rest of the article is an area that is causing problems, in terms of finding housing that can accommodate horses.

Im sure you would agree that then can always purchase or rent improved accomodation.

Though properties with stables are few on the ground.

ryan101 · 07-06-2014 06:24PM

IrishEyes19 wrote: »

What do you propose they do so?

I'm not the government or the HSE, teeming with extremely well paid "experts", i.e. the ones who do have responsibility to bring in measures to protect children from this shameful mortality rate.

ceadaoin. · 07-06-2014 06:44PM

ryan101 wrote: »

I'm not the government or the HSE, teeming with extremely well paid "experts", i.e. the ones who do have responsibility to bring in measures to protect children from this shameful mortality rate.

They have access to the same health services as everybody else, and further measures specific to the travelling community have been implemented. The fact is that travelers generally do not want to engage with such services. The government can only help so much. What do you suggest they do when people do not want their help?

Traveller Health Units have been set up in each HSE region. The brief of the Traveller Health Units includes monitoring the delivery of health services to Travellers and setting regional targets against which performance can be measured. They also work to ensure that Traveller health is given prominence on the agenda of the HSE and support the development of Traveller specific initiatives either directly by the HSE, or indirectly through funding appropriate voluntary organisations.

The terms of reference of the Traveller Health Units are:

Monitoring the delivery of health services to Travellers and setting regional targets against which performance can be measured
Ensuring that Travellers' health is given prominence on the agenda of the HSE
Ensuring co-ordination and liaison between the HSE, and other statutory and voluntary bodies, in relation to the health situation of Travellers
Collection of data on Travellers' health and utilisation of health services
Ensuring appropriate training of health service providers in terms of their understanding of and relationship with Travellers
Supporting the development of Traveller specific services either directly by the HSE, or indirectly through funding appropriate voluntary organisations.

RobertKK · 08-06-2014 10:41AM

I would guess the halting sites are the main reason for the high child mortality rate, and these facilities could be vastly improved.
Overcrowding is a health issue, add in maybe no running water, maybe just only cold water, 61 people living on a acre and a half of land with some of the caravans with no sewage system or water - as in the article I posted.
Disease for children will be a problem in these conditions.

comongethappy · 08-06-2014 10:43AM

RobertKK wrote: »

I would guess the halting sites are the main reason for the high child mortality rate, and these facilities could be vastly improved.
Overcrowding is a health issue, add in maybe no running water, maybe just only cold water, 61 people living on a acre and a half of land with some of the caravans with no sewage system or water - as in the article I posted.
Disease for children will be a problem in these conditions.

I'm pretty sure the council allow residents to make improvements to halting sites.

Society seeing what it wants to see

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