Society seeing what it wants to see

miss no stars · 06-06-2014 05:08PM

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

I think if you replaced the words 'travellers' with 'unmarried mothers' you'd be close to the attitude to single mothers in the 50s in Ireland.

They were to blame for getting pregnant. They were to blame because they were obviously loose women, who indulged in their nasty, dirty, filthy lusts. They were to blame because they were not 'us' - good, decent, hard-working, and pious Catholics.

They were to blame because they were caught out, unlike us who got married at 4 months pregant, not that we'd ever admit that in a zillion years, our poor mites were born awfully prematurely (even though they were fine big healthy babies for being born premature).

And never ever blame the boyfriend. And never even *think* about rape and incest, because they don't exist in holy Catholic Ireland. No, no, it's all the fault of these "loose women". Phew! And no blame attaches to us, it's all THEIR fault.

BTW, we're still looking for scapegoats for the deaths of those children in the 50s. But in reality, everyone in that society was complicit whether they knew about the details or not.

I think you're being a bit unfair. No traveller is prevented from getting work and buying a house or apartment or renting a house or apartment or signing on and being provided with same. No traveller is denied an education at any official level. No traveller is denied healthcare. No traveller is interned and used as slave labour. No traveller's child is left to die and thrown into a septic tank.

That travellers choose to live in high density situations with no permenancy, that they choose to make themselves social outcasts, that they choose not to educate their children - that's on them. Oh and that's what they want official protection to be able to do.

kneemos · 06-06-2014 05:18PM

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

I think if you replaced the words 'travellers' with 'unmarried mothers' you'd be close to the attitude to single mothers in the 50s in Ireland.

They were to blame for getting pregnant. They were to blame because they were obviously loose women, who indulged in their nasty, dirty, filthy lusts. They were to blame because they were not 'us' - good, decent, hard-working, and pious Catholics.

They were to blame because they were caught out, unlike us who got married at 4 months pregant, not that we'd ever admit that in a zillion years, our poor mites were born awfully prematurely (even though they were fine big healthy babies for being born premature).

And never ever blame the boyfriend. And never even *think* about rape and incest, because they don't exist in holy Catholic Ireland. No, no, it's all the fault of these "loose women". Phew! And no blame attaches to us, it's all THEIR fault.

BTW, we're still looking for scapegoats for the deaths of those children in the 50s. But in reality, everyone in that society was complicit whether they knew about the details or not.

People were less or barely educated at the time and less enlightened,the church dictated society and were looked upon for guidance.I wouldn't be too hard on the people of the time.

RobertKK · 06-06-2014 05:19PM

Here in Kilkenny, we had a Traveller family given a home to live in by the council, to prevent the family living there, someone burnt it down. This came after threats to the family.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/travellers-faced-threats-before-home-set-on-fire-26840694.html

Before the house was burned down the family received a threat telling them their home would be burnt to ashes and he was to take his 'tinker puppies' with him.

It would be hard for anyone to settle down in a home if faced with this type of prejudice.

Dan_Solo · 06-06-2014 05:23PM

kneemos wrote: »

What lifestyle?As far as I can see they have the same lifestyle as the rest of us.
Maybe it's down to nutrition or genetics or something?

Um, nutrition is their choice too.
If they want to live like gypsies outside the rest of society they sort of have to expect these things no?
What do you want, a doctor at every hard stand? Forced adoption to the settled community?

Dan_Solo · 06-06-2014 05:24PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Here in Kilkenny, we had a Traveller family given a home to live in by the council, to prevent the family living there, someone burnt it down. This came after threats to the family.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/travellers-faced-threats-before-home-set-on-fire-26840694.html

Before the house was burned down the family received a threat telling them their home would be burnt to ashes and he was to take his 'tinker puppies' with him.

It would be hard for anyone to settle down in a home if faced with this type of prejudice.

Happened here too and not hearsay, saw it myself several times. Turned out the travellers had burned the houses out themselves. Sometimes when the patriarch died which was supposedly the tradition.
I wish someone would hand me a house for nothing.

comongethappy · 06-06-2014 05:24PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Here in Kilkenny, we had a Traveller family given a home to live in by the council, to prevent the family living there, someone burnt it down. This came after threats to the family.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/travellers-faced-threats-before-home-set-on-fire-26840694.html

Before the house was burned down the family received a threat telling them their home would be burnt to ashes and he was to take his 'tinker puppies' with him.

It would be hard for anyone to settle down in a home if faced with this type of prejudice.

I suppose that family can always purchase/rent a house elsewhere.

comongethappy · 06-06-2014 05:25PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Happened here too and not hearsay, saw it myself several times. I wish someone would hand me a house for nothing.

Put me down for 2.

Dan_Solo · 06-06-2014 05:29PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Children, very often, do not dictate where their parents live.

So your answer is?

Little CuChulainn · 06-06-2014 05:31PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Here in Kilkenny, we had a Traveller family given a home to live in by the council, to prevent the family living there, someone burnt it down. This came after threats to the family.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/travellers-faced-threats-before-home-set-on-fire-26840694.html

Before the house was burned down the family received a threat telling them their home would be burnt to ashes and he was to take his 'tinker puppies' with him.

It would be hard for anyone to settle down in a home if faced with this type of prejudice.

That's one family, and if i recall correctly they had a checkered history. In most of Ireland, travellers get land, homes and bays. They get whole estates to themselves. There is no lack of opportunity for them.

Even your own linked report highlights some issues. Higher than normal respiratory issues and 250 times less likely to be breast fed. These are choices. I'm not sure if you've ever been to a halting site but they aren't clean places. And it's not from lack of government intervention. They get free bin collection and regular clean ups. The reality is that many traveler kids live in squalor and suffer from health problems because of the choices of their parents. Until this is accepted nothing will be done.

kneemos · 06-06-2014 05:36PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

That's one family, and if i recall correctly they had a checkered history. In most of Ireland, travellers get land, homes and bays. They get whole estates to themselves. There is no lack of opportunity for them.

Even your own linked report highlights some issues. Higher than normal respiratory issues and 250 times less likely to be breast fed. These are choices. I'm not sure if you've ever been to a halting site but they aren't clean places. And it's not from lack of government intervention. They get free bin collection and regular clean ups. The reality is that many traveler kids live in squalor and suffer from health problems because of the choices of their parents. Until this is accepted nothing will be done.

Sounds like the same attitude that led to 800 babies in a septic tank.Dunno if anything can be done or not but it's a defeatist attitude.

Dan_Solo · 06-06-2014 05:40PM

kneemos wrote: »

Sounds like the same attitude that led to 800 babies in a septic tank.Dunno if anything can be done or not but it's a defeatist attitude.

I'd equate the travellers to the church here, not general society. Society eventually had to fight, and is still fighting, against the church.

Little CuChulainn · 06-06-2014 05:45PM

kneemos wrote: »

Sounds like the same attitude that led to 800 babies in a septic tank.Dunno if anything can be done or not but it's a defeatist attitude.

How exactly is it the same attitude?

Grayson · 06-06-2014 05:45PM

I have to agree with RobertKK to an extent. It is horrible that in a first world country, in the 21st century, there is a segment of our population that has a child mortality rate that is so high. It should also be mentioned that the mortality rate for travellers in general is worse than the general population. They die younger from diseases that are a product of lifestyle.

This is their own fault a lot of the time. We cannot remove the responsibility they have for their actions. I've known travellers who did not fall into that trap and educated themselves. They became solicitors and doctors. Most won't and it is to a large extent their fault.

that doesn't mean that we don't have a responsibility to do something. We need to make sure that all traveller families have access to the full range of services everyone else has. Especially healthcare and education. Education is the greatest tool society has at removing inequality. It is the greatest cause of social mobility. It may be too hard or too late to help adults, but we can do out best to make sure their children grow up educated with options that their parents never had.

The difference between this and the septic tank is that travellers are not marginalised the way unmarried mothers were. No-one is taking their children away and locking up the mothers. additionally travellers are not under the direct care and direct responsibility of the state/church.

Pumpkinseeds · 06-06-2014 05:45PM

kneemos wrote: »

Sounds like the same attitude that led to 800 babies in a septic tank.Dunno if anything can be done or not but it's a defeatist attitude.

Utter rubbish

kneemos · 06-06-2014 05:51PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

How exactly is it the same attitude?

It's their own fault,let them suffer.

Dan_Solo · 06-06-2014 05:53PM

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Utter rubbish

Pedophile/murderer apologists seem to have been pushing this line in unison all week: criticism of the church is hate, pedophilia/murder is also hate, therefore hating the church is as bad as pedophilia/murder.
It's complete desperate tripe.

Little CuChulainn · 06-06-2014 05:55PM

kneemos wrote: »

It's their own fault,let them suffer.

Not their own fault, their own choice. You do understand the difference between been forced to do something and choosing to do something don't you?

Dan_Solo · 06-06-2014 05:55PM

kneemos wrote: »

It's their own fault,let them suffer.

Who was saying it was the mother's or baby's fault? That was THE CHURCH not society!

kingchess · 06-06-2014 05:57PM

it is hard for the kids to go to school if the family keeps moving whenever they feel like it,the point of being a traveller is that you move around as that is their culture, when they do get a house they have a habit of thrashing it,but not to worry as they will be given another one..if they changed their lifestyle their health and education would improve.

kneemos · 06-06-2014 06:00PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Not their own fault, their own choice. You do understand the difference between been forced to do something and choosing to do something don't you?

It's the attitude we were talking about.You seem to have gone astray.No matter.

Pumpkinseeds · 06-06-2014 06:15PM

kneemos wrote: »

It's the attitude we were talking about.You seem to have gone astray.No matter.

So what do you suggest, taking the kids off them? They have chosen to be a seperate society from the rest of us. They choose to break the law and not send their kids to school. They are entitled to the same medical and welfare services as any settled person. The adults make a choice for their children and the parents are the ones that are the problem.

It won't be long before this thread closes.

kneemos · 06-06-2014 06:22PM

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

So what do you suggest, taking the kids off them? They have chosen to be a seperate society from the rest of us. They choose to break the law and not send their kids to school. They are entitled to the same medical and welfare services as any settled person. The aduizlts make a choice for their children and the parents are the ones that are the problem.

It won't be long before this thread closes.

Dunno,but if you believe nothing can be done nothing will be.

miss no stars · 06-06-2014 06:26PM

kneemos wrote: »

Dunno,but if you believe nothing can be done nothing will be.

Let's have your suggestions seeing as you're so quick to belittle those who say "we as a society have tried and have given them more than we give everyone else, if they want to throw that away then it's their fault when things like the mortality rate drops for the rest of society but not for them".

kult · 06-06-2014 06:30PM

less travellers , less problems, couldn't care less about people who do not want to assimilate and are not willing to pay taxes, but are happy to claim all the benefits from the state...

kneemos · 06-06-2014 06:45PM

miss no stars wrote: »

Let's have your suggestions seeing as you're so quick to belittle those who say "we as a society have tried and have given them more than we give everyone else, if they want to throw that away then it's their fault when things like the mortality rate drops for the rest of society but not for them".

Said twice I don't know,probably difficult to change attitudes I'd imagine.It's the lets ignore it attitude I was rabbitting on about.

suicide_circus · 06-06-2014 07:04PM

Our reluctance to call people on personal responsibility is one of the most profound challenges facing our society. Everything is someone elses fault. Everyone is entitled to things rather than having to earn them.

JuliusCaesar · 06-06-2014 07:55PM

miss no stars wrote: »

I think you're being a bit unfair. No traveller is prevented from getting work and buying a house or apartment or renting a house or apartment or signing on and being provided with same. No traveller is denied an education at any official level. No traveller is denied healthcare. No traveller is interned and used as slave labour. No traveller's child is left to die and thrown into a septic tank.

That travellers choose to live in high density situations with no permenancy, that they choose to make themselves social outcasts, that they choose not to educate their children - that's on them. Oh and that's what they want official protection to be able to do.

CHOICE?!

What choice do you have when this is the culture in which you grow up, when you are despised by the rest of the population? When your lack of education prevents you from going for jobs? When you go for a job and you know the interviewer has judged you from the getgo and will never offer it to you if there is any alternative applicant? When you know that you are a member of a stigmatised minority, and nobody will speak up for you? When you think anyone who does speak up for you is patronising you? When nobody facilitates your traditional way of life, giving you bloody awful halting sites, hampering access to education?

In my primary school we occasionally had traveller children. None of us wanted to play with them because they stank. They stank because they had no access to clean water. We could look down on them and be horrible to them, because the adults didn't stop us. The adults didn't stop us because they had the same attitude to them.

What would YOU be like if you had these experiences? I don't think I'd be trying to join society - I think I'd see the rest of society as the enemy. But I'd be interested to hear what other people think.

Pumpkinseeds · 06-06-2014 08:01PM

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

CHOICE?!

What choice do you have when this is the culture in which you grow up, when you are despised by the rest of the population? When your lack of education prevents you from going for jobs? When you go for a job and you know the interviewer has judged you from the getgo and will never offer it to you if there is any alternative applicant? When you know that you are a member of a stigmatised minority, and nobody will speak up for you? When you think anyone who does speak up for you is patronising you? When nobody facilitates your traditional way of life, giving you bloody awful halting sites, hampering access to education?

In my primary school we occasionally had traveller children. None of us wanted to play with them because they stank. They stank because they had no access to clean water. We could look down on them and be horrible to them, because the adults didn't stop us. The adults didn't stop us because they had the same attitude to them.

What would YOU be like if you had these experiences? I don't think I'd be trying to join society - I think I'd see the rest of society as the enemy. But I'd be interested to hear what other people think.

I remember those days too. But things have changed and in many ways the traveller culture is a lot more aggressive and in your face than the settled kids. But discrimination is a 2 way street. The traveller adults don't want their kids mixing with settled kids.

Now I'm not suggesting that the children of travellers should be taken off them but I really don't know what other options there are to make life better for the kids. I've read stories of traveller kids missing a lot of time at school, the authorities then take the parents to court and the next time the case is before a judge the lawyer is telling the judge that the family are out of the country travelling.

Traveller culture is protected, not a great idea in my opinion but hey ho.

shruikan2553 · 06-06-2014 08:09PM

If they stayed in one place long enough to educate their children and integrated with society Im sure many of their issues would disappear quite quickly. If someone wishes to do their leaving cert as an adult they can. No excuses.

Red21 · 06-06-2014 08:30PM

When I was 2nd class, 2 bothers who were travellers got expelled from our school, for general trouble making, they were kinda bold but nothing more than the usual. I didn't realise it at the time but looking back on it now, it was brutal discrimination, imagine the the effect this had on these guys and their family.

I've had many dealings with travellers over the years and found them just as sound as settled people.

Society seeing what it wants to see

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