Society seeing what it wants to see

RobertKK · 06-06-2014 04:08PM #1

The mortality rate for children of Travellers is 4 times higher for what it is elsewhere in society.
Nothing is being done, they are Travellers and society doesn't care, a lot of people would say they wouldn't want to be living next to a Traveller family.

We had a children's referendum and only 30% of the electorate felt the need to vote - it doesn't matter if one voted yes or no, they made an effort to vote, taking into account those abroad through emigration, the sick, people who are too far away maybe with work or education, it was a pitiful amount.

The media decides the narrative, it will concentrate on places that are closed down where children died and where the danger no longer exists - yes a full investigation is needed, the truth needs to be aired and lessons learned.
But then the high death toll in mother and baby homes was discussed in the Dail in the late 1920's and 1930's and nothing was done.

The report that Traveller's children had a 4 times higher mortality rate than the norm is known, there will be no shock and horror, maybe because they are buried and not stuffed into a septic tank as in Tuam, maybe because some in society see Travellers as undesirables and prejudices will make people not want to see or even care about the higher death toll among Traveller children or the fact the lifespan of a Traveller is far shorter than general society.

Will we have campaigns and petitions with people contacting their local representatives to investigate why a Traveller child is 4 times more likely to die than a child in general society, and what will they do about it.
I doubt it.

History has a habit of the same mistakes being made, while the dead of the mother and baby homes needs to be fully investigated, people made accountable and lessons learned.
The question is will society just act all horrified and be asking how could this have been allowed to happen when people knew it was happening back then, while a similar situation in terms of above normal child mortality exists today?

Here is the article that inspired this thread which goes much further than dealing with Travellers. - http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/colette-browne/ireland-didnt-cherish-all-its-children-equally-we-still-dont-30333643.html

Buzz Killington the third · 06-06-2014 04:13PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Nothing is being done, they are Travellers and society doesn't care, a lot of people would say they wouldn't want to be living next to a Traveller family.

A lot of Travellers wouldn't want to settle, and don't care for the rules that society has!

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 06-06-2014 04:15PM

So what? We give people the freedom to vote and then you want to force them to use the freedom?

Oh the ironing!!!

bogwalrus · 06-06-2014 04:15PM

I did not know they had a much higher mortality rate. I think you need to provide a link to a study or something. I'm here googling to find something scientific and concrete.

Mr. Incognito · 06-06-2014 04:16PM

Why don't you ask their parents?

Little CuChulainn · 06-06-2014 04:17PM

The Childrens referendum was pointless. I accomplished nothing at all. Children had the exact same rights before and after it.

Traveler mortality rates are completely down to their chosen culture. I'm not sure what you expect everyone to do about it.

PizzamanIRL · 06-06-2014 04:18PM

Happenstance.

I Heart Internet · 06-06-2014 04:19PM

RobertKK wrote: »

The mortality rate for children of Travellers is 4 times higher for what it is elsewhere in society.

That's shocking if true. I wouldn't have expected it to be higher than the general population - perhaps a fraction higher, but not 4 times as high.

SEPT 23 1989 · 06-06-2014 04:19PM

shameful hijacking

miss no stars · 06-06-2014 04:20PM

The reason there isn't shock and horror is because (if your numbers are true, btw) they choose to live a lifestyle that causes a higher mortality rate. Nobody is forcing them to.

kneemos · 06-06-2014 04:24PM

miss no stars wrote: »

The reason there isn't shock and horror is because (if your numbers are true, btw) they choose to live a lifestyle that causes a higher mortality rate. Nobody is forcing them to.

What lifestyle?As far as I can see they have the same lifestyle as the rest of us.
Maybe it's down to nutrition or genetics or something?

Banjo String · 06-06-2014 04:24PM

Tldr.

I'm having a nice piece of fish for dinner later though.

bogwalrus · 06-06-2014 04:24PM

This explains a fair bit. It says the mortality rate is twice that of the rest of society.

Dravokivich · 06-06-2014 04:25PM

I must say rather honestly, I thought the issues around children for them were based around the level of education. But your post isn't about adding to that. You aren't trying to high light issue's in other parts of society looking for us to support each other. The tone of your post is entirely about "Yes the Tuam thing is bad, but what about this?" Any issues with terrible mortality rates should be given the same respect and recognition especially when they could be preventable. But you are doing the complete opposite of that and looking to make it a point of contention.

If you truly cared yourself, you would have mentioned this in the other thread, but you are just looking to split people up and pitch'em against eachother.

fúcking disgraceful.

Buzz Killington the third · 06-06-2014 04:26PM

kneemos wrote: »

What lifestyle?As far as I can see they have the same lifestyle as the rest of us.

Not all of us live in a caravan without any facilities to wash ourselves and like to bate the head off each other in our spare time.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 06-06-2014 04:27PM

I'm not trying to be cruel or anything when I ask this but travellers do have a habit of marrying their own family and I'm just wondering how you propose the general population stop this from happening as I'm sure it would lead to children from marriages like that being less healthy if their parents weren't related?

RobertKK · 06-06-2014 04:28PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

I must say rather honestly, I thought the issues around children for them were based around the level of education. But your post isn't about adding to that. You aren't trying to high light issue's in other parts of society looking for us to support each other. The tone of your post is entirely about "Yes the Tuam thing is bad, but what about this?" Any issues with terrible mortality rates should be given the same respect and recognition especially when they could be preventable. But you are doing the complete opposite of that and looking to make it a point of contention.

Sorry, you are wrong there in your assumption.

http://www.ucd.ie/news/2011/10OCT11/031011-Traveller-infant-mortality-still-higher-than-the-general-population.html

I agree with "terrible mortality rates should be given the same respect and recognition".
The only difference is, one can't save the dead, but we can try and save the living.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 06-06-2014 04:30PM

Would a small gene pool, people marrying realitives etc have anything to do with shorter lifespan?

RobertKK · 06-06-2014 04:31PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

If you truly cared yourself, you would have mentioned this in the other thread, but you are just looking to split people up and pitch'em against eachother.

fúcking disgraceful.

I stopped posting in the other thread as some were using that thread to troll and bait me - warnings were handed out and I thought it was best to stop posting in that thread as it was not about me.
This thread is not about me, deal with the issue, not the person.

Little CuChulainn · 06-06-2014 04:32PM

RobertKK wrote: »

I stopped posting in the other thread as some were using that thread to troll and bait me - warnings were handed out and I thought it was best to stop posting in that thread as it was not about me.
This thread is not about me, deal with the issue, not the person.

So what's your solution?

miss no stars · 06-06-2014 04:32PM

kneemos wrote: »

What lifestyle?As far as I can see they have the same lifestyle as the rest of us.
Maybe it's down to nutrition or genetics or something?

Heat, protection from damp, well educated parents, plenty of hot clean running water, more space per person in the family dwelling.. All things that reduce childhood mortality. Things you find in most houses/apartments. Not necessarily things associated with caravans :eek: Also, their genetic pool is smaller than that of the wider population. That intrinsically makes them more at risk of certain life threatening illnesses - like how the rate of CF rocketed after the famine due to the reduced population.

SEPT 23 1989 · 06-06-2014 04:32PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Sorry, you are wrong there in your assumption.

http://www.ucd.ie/news/2011/10OCT11/031011-Traveller-infant-mortality-still-higher-than-the-general-population.html

I agree with "terrible mortality rates should be given the same respect and recognition".
The only difference is, one can't save the dead, but we can try and save the living.

How can we save the traveller children Robert?

I Heart Internet · 06-06-2014 04:32PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

If you truly cared yourself, you would have mentioned this in the other thread, but you are just looking to split people up and pitch'em against eachother.

fúcking disgraceful.

In fairness, if he mentioned it on another thread he would have been accused of whataboutery. Which this nearly is, but it's still important to point out that things aren't rosy for all children in Ireland today either.

SEPT 23 1989 · 06-06-2014 04:36PM

miss no stars wrote: »

Heat, protection from damp, well educated parents, plenty of hot clean running water, more space per person in the family dwelling.. All things that reduce childhood mortality. Things you find in most houses/apartments. Not necessarily things associated with caravans :eek: Also, their genetic pool is smaller than that of the wider population. That intrinsically makes them more at risk of certain life threatening illnesses - like how the rate of CF rocketed after the famine due to the reduced population.

no Traveller in Ireland 2014 lives in a dwelling with no heat and running water

unless they choose to do so

Valetta · 06-06-2014 04:38PM

The question asked should not be "what are we doing about it?", but rather "What are they (the travellers) doing about it?"

RobertKK · 06-06-2014 04:39PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

So what's your solution?

Update the figures from 2011 to 2014 and see has there been any significant change in mortality rates.
If not investigate why and find the reasons for it, then implement changes based on the findings and try and lower the mortality figure, then see in three years time after changes have been implemented if the mortality rate is reducing.

miss no stars · 06-06-2014 04:44PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

no Traveller in Ireland 2014 lives in a dwelling with no heat and running water

unless they choose to do so

I didn't say they don't have any, I just mean that a caravan doesn't compare to a house in terms of how warm you can get (and keep) a child and I said plenty of hot running water, not running water.

They might seem like trivial small differences, but anyone who grew up before central heating and double glazing knows the difference it can make to have a drier, warmer house. It can be the difference between a sniffle and a bad cold. Which can be the difference between recovery and pneumonia in a child with a weak immune system. Repeat enough and you have a sickly child vs a healthy child.

And I think the OP has a point that there are children at higher risk NOW yet nobody seems to be doing anything, but efforts to do anything seem to be resisted by the travelling community themselves

I Heart Internet · 06-06-2014 04:46PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

no Traveller in Ireland 2014 lives in a dwelling with no heat and running water

unless they choose to do so

Children, very often, do not dictate where their parents live.

RustyNut · 06-06-2014 04:46PM

RobertKK wrote: »

The mortality rate for children of Travellers is 4 times higher for what it is elsewhere in society.
Nothing is being done, they are Travellers and society doesn't care, a lot of people would say they wouldn't want to be living next to a Traveller family.

We had a children's referendum and only 30% of the electorate felt the need to vote - it doesn't matter if one voted yes or no, they made an effort to vote, taking into account those abroad through emigration, the sick, people who are too far away maybe with work or education, it was a pitiful amount.

The media decides the narrative, it will concentrate on places that are closed down where children died and where the danger no longer exists - yes a full investigation is needed, the truth needs to be aired and lessons learned.
But then the high death toll in mother and baby homes was discussed in the Dail in the late 1920's and 1930's and nothing was done.

The report that Traveller's children had a 4 times higher mortality rate than the norm is known, there will be no shock and horror, maybe because they are buried and not stuffed into a septic tank as in Tuam, maybe because some in society see Travellers as undesirables and prejudices will make people not want to see or even care about the higher death toll among Traveller children or the fact the lifespan of a Traveller is far shorter than general society.

Will we have campaigns and petitions with people contacting their local representatives to investigate why a Traveller child is 4 times more likely to die than a child in general society, and what will they do about it.
I doubt it.

History has a habit of the same mistakes being made, while the dead of the mother and baby homes needs to be fully investigated, people made accountable and lessons learned.
The question is will society just act all horrified and be asking how could this have been allowed to happen when people knew it was happening back then, while a similar situation in terms of above normal child mortality exists today?

Here is the article that inspired this thread which goes much further than dealing with Travellers. - http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/colette-browne/ireland-didnt-cherish-all-its-children-equally-we-still-dont-30333643.html

What do you suggest society (we) do to improve this figure. While travellers are marginalised they have access to the same social and health care services as the rest of us.

One solution might be to take their baby's off them, sell the healthy ones to rich americans and fcuk the rest of them in a septic tank, sure it would be the christian thing to do...

MagicMarker · 06-06-2014 04:53PM

AH's resident homophobe has found a high horse. Delightful.

JuliusCaesar · 06-06-2014 04:57PM

I think if you replaced the words 'travellers' with 'unmarried mothers' you'd be close to the attitude to single mothers in the 50s in Ireland.

They were to blame for getting pregnant. They were to blame because they were obviously loose women, who indulged in their nasty, dirty, filthy lusts. They were to blame because they were not 'us' - good, decent, hard-working, and pious Catholics.

They were to blame because they were caught out, unlike us who got married at 4 months pregant, not that we'd ever admit that in a zillion years, our poor mites were born awfully prematurely (even though they were fine big healthy babies for being born premature).

And never ever blame the boyfriend. And never even *think* about rape and incest, because they don't exist in holy Catholic Ireland. No, no, it's all the fault of these "loose women". Phew! And no blame attaches to us, it's all THEIR fault.

BTW, we're still looking for scapegoats for the deaths of those children in the 50s. But in reality, everyone in that society was complicit whether they knew about the details or not.

Society seeing what it wants to see

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