The Others/White Walkers: Are they as they seem? Book Spoilers - Beware

Mr.Prodston · 29-05-2014 04:53PM #1

As the title suggests I'm curious what other people think about the others. Spoilers from all the books will follow so you have been warned again not to read if you don't want to be spoiled

I've long been of the view that The Others are not the evil big bad that some think they are and are perceived to be. The mystery that shrouds them leads us to think that they're the ultimate foe in the Song of Ice and Fire. The tv show this season gives us even more insight into their world with Craster's son having been delivered to what we're assuming is the Night's King and the baby is seemingly turned rather than killed or have any true harm come to him. This can only add to the argument that there's something more to them than mindless evil.

They clearly on some level represent Ice/Winter/North along with the Old Gods etc and Dany, her dragons and R'Holler represent Fire/Summer/South. I'd like to throw Bran into the North's situation but not sure quite where he fits. They very much have similar if yet very different characteristics yet Dany and her Dragons to the layperson's eye are good and the heroes. If you actually look at Dany and dragons etc they are not all good surely. Is it just because the audience has followed her story?

Her Dragons seem no better than some of the others and the wights yet are seen as good. Why is that?

Out of everything to come in The Winds of Winter it is learning more about the others' backstory and their plans, if they even have any. So am I in the minority to think that The Others are not evil or at least potentially no worse than Dragons or what do any of ye think?

29-05-2014 10:06PM

I would be along the same line of thinking as yourself Mr. Prodston as regards your thoughts on the Others. It just seems too obvious that they are the 'big bad', and as we have seen so far in the books G.R.R. Martin tends not to do obvious.

Maybe they themselves are trying to get away from something North of the Wall, something which could turn out to be the big bad. Maybe the reason why they are hostile is because they have no other choice, they have been closed in by the Night's Watch/Wall/Southerners.

More than anything though, I feel that we aren't going to get any answers/clarity on this for a long time to come yet.

Mickeroo · 29-05-2014 10:15PM

You could be right though for now i'm in the "they are the bad guys" camp for now.

My sociology lecturer in college always used to bring up the way the Orcs are portrayed in lord of the rings and how we perceive them. Basically just because they're not human we treat them as something that should be exterminated and take joy in seeing them being slaughtered yet we know nothing about their society or motivations. And i think because the WW could fall under this kind of thing too to a lesser extent.

Would love if George Rar Rar Martin flipped everything on it's head and revealed them to be something not completely evil but I honestly don't think it will happen.

Oranage2 · 30-05-2014 10:01AM

I don't think anybody in the book at this stage are the good guys or the bad guys (well the stark kids being good and the Bolton's being bad)

But from the history of the others the only way to stop them was with a battle and they're a threat to the human race so they're probably the bad guys.

Dyr · 30-05-2014 10:05AM

Mickeroo wrote: »

You could be right though for now i'm in the "they are the bad guys" camp for now.

My sociology lecturer in college always used to bring up the way the Orcs are portrayed in lord of the rings and how we perceive them. Basically just because they're not human we treat them as something that should be exterminated and take joy in seeing them being slaughtered yet we know nothing about their society or motivations. And i think because the WW could fall under this kind of thing too to a lesser extent.

Yeah your sociology lecturer probably read this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer

Mickeroo · 30-05-2014 01:33PM

Bambi wrote: »

Yeah your sociology lecturer probably read this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer

Holy crap! Will have to get my hands on that.

Pepe LeFrits · 30-05-2014 02:30PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

You could be right though for now i'm in the "they are the bad guys" camp for now.

My sociology lecturer in college always used to bring up the way the Orcs are portrayed in lord of the rings and how we perceive them. Basically just because they're not human we treat them as something that should be exterminated and take joy in seeing them being slaughtered yet we know nothing about their society or motivations. And i think because the WW could fall under this kind of thing too to a lesser extent.

Would love if George Rar Rar Martin flipped everything on it's head and revealed them to be something not completely evil but I honestly don't think it will happen.

Well, Martin himself has criticised the LOTR books for the black and white way they portray the war between the two sides, so I wouldn't be surprised by that at all.

Daith · 30-05-2014 04:11PM

One of the theories that I like is that Bran is basically going to be the counter to the Red Priests. I'd also agree that the Others aren't what they seem but so far as far as the books go they've been setup as the big bad.

Kunkka · 30-05-2014 04:34PM

Bambi wrote: »

Yeah your sociology lecturer probably read this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer

Holy **** balls.

shut+up.jpg

Mickeroo · 30-05-2014 04:35PM

Kunkka wrote: »

Holy **** balls.

Apparently the only English language version is a fee pdf!

Kunkka · 30-05-2014 04:58PM

PhlegmyMoses · 02-06-2014 11:01PM

The reason why we think Dany and her dragons are good and the Others and their wights are bad is because we know that Dany isn't a wholly horrible person. How they respectively treat the kids they come into contact with is a good juxtaposition. Dany's motives are relatively pure and she is deeply affected when her dragons kill a kid and she loses control of Drogon. She isn't fully abreast of what went down for Robert's Rebellion and has been fed a load of **** about people longing for her return.

As for The Others, we don't know their motives. We do know that, whilst they don't hurt the kids they take from Craster, they do turn them into something else, leaving them no choice in the matter.

Even if it is one of those bigger predators on the food chain situations and their motives are survival or ambition based, **** them to be honest. We're always going to root for the human element.

Brian? · 03-06-2014 06:13AM

I don't think Martin does black and white or good v evil.

The White Walkers are the Ice and Dany/Dragons/Red Priests are the fire. Neither is actually all good or all bad.

I literally have no idea how it's going to work out though, it's a complete mystery to me.

Jon, Dany, Tyrion etc. have been set up as the "good" guys from the beginning but I can't see it being that simple. But given how Martin treats the good guys, they'll all be dead fairly soon.

There won't be a climatic battle where the good guys win IMO. However it will end with Hodor sitting on the Iron Throne, that I am positive of.

The Others/White Walkers: Are they as they seem? *Book Spoilers - Beware*

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The Others/White Walkers: Are they as they seem? Book Spoilers - Beware