Are you a feminist?

nokia69 · 24-05-2014 03:50PM

I'm not a feminist

I believe in equal rights

Muise... · 24-05-2014 03:50PM

hfallada wrote: »

Most young men view women equally to men. The glass ceiling is in women's heads now. Take the law profession. Women's are outperforming men, the most respected barristers are women and female solicitors are doing well also.

Take girls written by Lena Dunham. It's shows 4 girls living in Brooklyn and Dont rely on men like previous TV shows like sex and the city.

Women put down the fact they are underperforming to men, because they are women. But rarely acknowledge they are underqualified or lack experience. Women complain about under representation in politics.But yet rarely run as independent.

I think the remaining battles are to do with the things the sexes can never be equal on because they do not have corresponding biologies. "Equal rights" can't be applied to reproductive choices as easily as to the franchise, for example, and leads to stupid whatabouteries.

Then there are cultural problems such as misogynistic attitudes, which can't be forced to change by legislation, so they'll have to wait till more patient men and women sit down and listen to each other without flying off the handle at extremes and old grievances.

GarIT · 24-05-2014 03:51PM

In this country women have completely equal rights to men. I challenge anyone to find one law that discriminates against women. As an aside I can find many they discriminate against men.

By feminist's definition of sexism. It is impossible to be feminist and not be sexist. Feminism as a word stems from female, therefore it's sexist, if you wanted equality for everybody you wouldn't have a name made from female.

desultory · 24-05-2014 03:52PM

Seaneh wrote: »

In that I believe woman should have equal rights to men, yes I'm a feminist.

I think gender quotas in jobs and government are bloody retarded though.
If you want more women to be politicians or engineers or chefs or race car drivers then promote them as things women can strive to be, make girls interested in those industries, don't make it a situation where if 2 people apply for a job and one of them is a woman and one is a man, the man loses out solely because he's a man, even if he is more qualified to do the job.
The best person to preform the role is the people with the best training, experience and ability, not the person of the "correct" gender to meet a quota.

Absolutely. If anything that's sexism.

Those most suited and qualified for the job should get the job, whether they're male or female. If there's 100 positions open and 99 of those are filled with women it'd be considered 'a step forward' (by some) but do the opposite and it's sexist and 'this is why I need feminism' lark.
Why not just look at their qualifications and suitability for the job.
It seems far simpler but no..now there's quotas to ensure people aren't being sexist, madness.

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller · 24-05-2014 03:56PM

Aurum wrote: »

You can try to discredit any political movement or ideology by pointing to the actions of some extremist outliers and trying to claim that their actions and opinions are representative of the group as a whole.

"Extremists outliers"

You have no idea what you are talking about.

In Sweden, these people are anything but extremists.

They are in fact, the mainstream.

Pwindedd · 24-05-2014 03:57PM

I'm a feminist in relation to issues where women are not being treated equally, and so I guess I'm also a masculist ? In relation to issues where men are not being treated equally. I believe in fairness for all in matters where sex is irrelevant. I'm also lucky in that all of the hard work has been done by those that have gone before me and I'm living in an age where practically nothing is denied me because of my sex. It's very easy to be part of an ism, when you don't have to do that much to join.

I still think we have a little way to go in acknowledging that men and women are a bit different, physically, mentally and socially. As a species, we're never going to be the same, we need to accept those differences and work around them sensibly, but we're doing okay compared to other regimes.

tritium · 24-05-2014 03:58PM

Muise... wrote: »

I think the remaining battles are to do with the things the sexes can never be equal on because they do not have corresponding biologies. "Equal rights" can't be applied to reproductive choices as easily as to the franchise, for example, and leads to stupid whatabouteries.

Then there are cultural problems such as misogynistic attitudes, which can't be forced to change by legislation, so they'll have to wait till more patient men and women sit down and listen to each other without flying off the handle at extremes and old grievances.

I'm genuinely curious how that can be squared with the idea of feminism wanting equality for all gender issues. If there are still gender issues such as fathers access to children that don't depend on biology surely a philosophy predicated on full equality would focus there first?

tritium · 24-05-2014 04:00PM

Aurum wrote: »

You can try to discredit any political movement or ideology by pointing to the actions of some extremist outliers and trying to claim that their actions and opinions are representative of the group as a whole.

And so it starts.

The descent to the place all these threads end up

Muise... · 24-05-2014 04:00PM

GarIT wrote: »

In this country women have completely equal rights to men. I challenge anyone to find one law that discriminates against women. As an aside I can find many they discriminate against men.

By feminist's definition of sexism. It is impossible to be feminist and not be sexist. Feminism as a word stems from female, therefore it's sexist, if you wanted equality for everybody you wouldn't have a name made from female.

Completely equal rights you say? Like the equal right to life of a foetus and the woman carrying it? Does that mean a man is equal to a foetus too?

(Not throwing down the gauntlet for an abortion row, just saying there are things we will never be equal on because equality is not always possible - you can't get pregnant and I can't piss standing up. Well, I could, but not in these shoes.)

It is possible to be feminist and not discriminate against men, in the same way that I can be a minimalist without doing any harm at all to serialists. It's not a zero-sum game.

GarIT · 24-05-2014 04:01PM

Pwindedd wrote: »

and so I guess I'm also a masculist ?

The terms that are generally used are equalist and egalitarian.

Links234 · 24-05-2014 04:01PM

There are serious issues women face in this country still, reproductive health for example.

GarIT · 24-05-2014 04:02PM

Links234 wrote: »

There are serious issues women face in this country still, reproductive health for example.

That's absolutely nothing to do with equality though, it's not like men have a right women don't there.

Also if women can have abortions men should also be allowed have legal abortions, where a father can choose not to be a father before the child is born.

Turtwig · 24-05-2014 04:03PM

With regard to reproduction, the only way fathers can have 'equal' say is when the technology exists for their bodies to be ones taking the most significant risk. Pregnancy isn't without its lifelong complications. So, it stands to reason, that person taking the biggest risk, the mother, gets the biggest say on the matter.

GarIT · 24-05-2014 04:04PM

Muise... wrote: »

Completely equal rights you say? Like the equal right to life of a foetus and the woman carrying it? Does that mean a man is equal to a foetus too?

(Not throwing down the gauntlet for an abortion row, just saying there are things we will never be equal on because equality is not always possible - you can't get pregnant and I can't piss standing up. Well, I could, but not in these shoes.)

It is possible to be feminist and not discriminate against men, in the same way that I can be a minimalist without doing any harm at all to serialists. It's not a zero-sum game.

If you use the term feminist to describe yourself that makes you sexist in my eyes. Abortion is nothing to do with equality, men have just as much right to abortions as women at the moment.

ceadaoin. · 24-05-2014 04:05PM

In Ireland and most (all?) other western nations, women do have equal rights. Can it be said that women are discriminated against by law in Ireland? No. I see feminism nowadays more about giving women choices. It's not someone's right to earn 100k a year but everyone should have the option to strive for that if they wish. In the past, women didn't have that choice.

You are not entitled to something simply because of your gender.

GarIT · 24-05-2014 04:05PM

Turtwig wrote: »

With regard to reproduction, the only way fathers can have 'equal' say is when the technology exists for their bodies to be ones taking the most significant risk. Pregnancy isn't without its lifelong complications. So, it stands to reason, that person taking the biggest risk, the mother, gets the biggest say on the matter.

A lot of people need to realise that biology dictates that some things will always be different.

If people actually want real equality they should agree to my idea of removing every reference to man, woman, male or female from the constitution and all laws.

RayM · 24-05-2014 04:06PM

Yes. I've always strongly believed that women should be treated as though they're equal.

Muise... · 24-05-2014 04:08PM

GarIT wrote: »

If you use the term feminist to describe yourself that makes you sexist in my eyes. Abortion is nothing to do with equality, men have just as much right to abortions as women at the moment.

GarIT wrote: »

A lot of people need to realise that biology dictates that some things will always be different.

You'll be mortified to find that you have just repeated the points of a feminist in your own special way. Scarla for you.

GarIT · 24-05-2014 04:11PM

Muise... wrote: »

You'll be mortified to find that you have just repeated the points of a feminist in your own special way. Scarla for you.

There are no set feminist points. I certainly agree with a lot of the beliefs of many feminists. I also believe that the vast majority of of feminists are sexist, that doesn't mean I disagree with them on everything.

Pwindedd · 24-05-2014 04:13PM

GarIT wrote: »

The terms that are generally used are equalist and egalitarian.

But I don't think we should abandon the word feminist because of its perceived negative connotations. The history behind feminism is a lot of hard work, by a lot of women (and men), to bring women's rights up to the level of their male counterparts. I wouldn't like to think we shelve feminist - I would prefer to think it's evolved into a "equal rights for all" banner. "I can't believe it's not feminism" if you will.

RDM_83 again · 24-05-2014 04:14PM

As a poster I probably come across as someone with a real dislike of feminism in general, but in reality its restricted to much of the actions and attitudes of the current 3rd/4th wave feminism with much of its focus being on minor issues, often being pro-censorship and claiming issues as 'feminist' issues where in reality they are egalitarian or general social problems that would be better tackled by a less gender centric approach while groups and speakers that claim to be feminist hold misandrist and pro-censorship ideologies without being disassociated from the mainstream 3rd/4th wave.

For the record I would consider that in many less developed countries the issues being raised are probably those of the 1st or 2nd wave in the west.

Academic Feminism gets a well deserved bad rep but having studied Archaeology/Anthropology I do think a 'Feminist' view point can be useful in terms of highlighting assumptions and shining a light less studied areas.

Muise... · 24-05-2014 04:15PM

GarIT wrote: »

There are no set feminist points. I certainly agree with a lot of the beliefs of many feminists. I also believe that the vast majority of of feminists are sexist, they doesn't mean I disagree with them on everything.

Waaaaait a minute - what is this? Has peace broken out?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf2xalvlJiQ

GarIT · 24-05-2014 04:22PM

Pwindedd wrote: »

But I don't think we should abandon the word feminist because of its perceived negative connotations. The history behind feminism is a lot of hard work, by a lot of women (and men), to bring women's rights up to the level of their male counterparts. I wouldn't like to think we shelve feminist - I would prefer to think it's evolved into a "equal rights for all" banner. "I can't believe it's not feminism" if you will.

Feminism by definition prioritises equal rights for women over equal rights for men. Yes feminists say they also support equal rights for men but it is not something that is in their main goals. The majority of feminists I have met support gender quotas which is just immoral in my opinion.

In the IT industry women with no experience can earn the same as men with at much as 5 years experience because when women are paid less companies get labelled as sexist, the problem is there are very few women in existence that stay in IT long enough to get experience. This is sexism IMO.

In Ireland women gat paid more than men on average when you only compare women against men with the same qualifications and experience.

Back to the word feminism for a minute, the words retard and handicapped are perfectly acceptable medical terms, If you read any medical book or journal from 1970-90 anyone with a mental disability will be labelled as retard, but now it's wrong to use retard because of the negativity attached to that word, this is the same thing that is happening with feminism.

FunLover18 · 24-05-2014 04:22PM

It's such a grey and complicated issue. I'm all for equal rights but the trouble is that there's so much disagreement on how to achieve it and what rights should be equal.

Eg I'm all for more women in politics however I don't agree with quotas.

Regarding children then, women without a doubt receive far more favourable rights which they don't seem to have a problem with. I've found from personal observation that women can be quiet choosy about what rights they want more of. There's a page on facebook, the UCD gender equality page, which provides a very good insight into the discrepancies in the definition of 'feminism' and how the "yooff" view the issue. There still seems to be quiet a lot of "men run the businesses, and they sit around sipping scotch laughing at the women knocking on the glass ceiling" yet most of these women will still wear the cap at their graduation.

My view on gender equality is that the mentality is all wrong; it's something that should be assumed not something to be achieved.

GarIT · 24-05-2014 04:27PM

Sexism in society is something that will need to fix itself with progress, it can't be educated against.

A simple solution to sexism in law though is just to ban the use of genders in the constitution and law, it sorts all the gay rights issues too, everyone happy?

nokia69 · 24-05-2014 04:29PM

what wave of feminism are we on now 5th wave or is it 6th

each wave dumber than the last

dafunk · 24-05-2014 04:31PM

I haven't read all the responses but it would appear that not many people understand what feminism is.

Look it up in a dictionary!

Feminism = EQUAL rights for women.

To say you are not a feminist is no different to describing yourself as a racist or homophobe.

Pwindedd · 24-05-2014 04:36PM

GarIT wrote: »

Feminism by definition prioritises equal rights for women over equal rights for men. Yes feminists say they also support equal rights for men but it is not something that is in their main goals. The majority of feminists I have met support gender quotas which is just immoral in my opinion.

In the IT industry women with no experience can earn the same as men with at much as 5 years experience because when women are paid less companies get labelled as sexist, the problem is there are very few women in existence that stay in IT long enough to get experience. This is sexism IMO.

In Ireland women gat paid more than men on average when you only compare women against men with the same qualifications and experience.

Back to the word feminism for a minute, the words retard and handicapped are perfectly acceptable medical terms, If you read any medical book or journal from 1970-90 anyone with a mental disability will be labelled as retard, but now it's wrong to use retard because of the negativity attached to that word, this is the same thing that is happening with feminism.

I disagree with your definition of feminsm. But that's ok disagreement is allowed. Personally I have never seen feminsm as the rights of women OVER the rights of men. I don't know many people that would support this. I would only support gender quotas on jury's and job roles that involve personal searches, intimate contact etc. eg airport security.

I'm interested in those stats in relation to men and women with equal qualifications and experience. Can you link please. Thanks.

Links234 · 24-05-2014 04:40PM

dafunk wrote: »

To say you are not a feminist is no different to describing yourself as a racist or homophobe.

No it isn't.

anncoates · 24-05-2014 04:41PM

Definitely.

A rugged yet sensitive male one

Please allow your knickers to fall like autumn leaves in a gale..

Are you a feminist?

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