Sky introduce new encryption system to combat piracy (HD Channels have began switch)

irishfeen · 23-05-2014 08:03PM #1

From thread on DS -

Confirmed channels switched to new encryption data -

Sky 1 HD
Sky Premier HD
Sky Atlantic HD
Sky SciFi / Horror HD
Sky Disney HD
Sky Living HD
Sky Arts 1 HD
Sky Arts 2 HD
National Geographic UK HD
History HD
Crime HD
NAT Geo Wild HD

Sky's new pairing doesn't introduce any significant differences to the existing NDS data, that data is still encrypted so only a genuine card can decrypt it, but what it does do is add an additional layer of encryption between the box/card to prevent their cards from being used in card servers like oscam or CCcam (what your c line uses to decrypt channels).

A new HD box running the latest firmware is able to take the incoming NDS data [ECMs/EMMs] from the MPEG (video) stream and further encrypt it before sending it to the card.

An old HD box (or an SD box) just continues as it did before, extracting the NDS data from the MPEG stream and feeding it to the card.

This design allows Sky to alter NOTHING to the existing NDS code, which is essential to (a) prevent loggers/hackers from running comparators over logs from the then/now data streams and (b) allow older boxes to work as before.

Remember, the change has NOT happened at the NDS level, it has happened at the firmware level of both the new HD boxes and the existing cards.

It's the boxes that are instructed to use the pairing algorithm [or not] for a particular channel(s) [or more accurately, entitlement group/level]

If you place a card in a new HD box, the card will be instructed to accept the newly encrypted data using the sky box's pairing key...

If you then move the card back to oscam, it will continue to expect that encrypted data for that channel(s) and try to decrypt it...
Of course, as the incoming data is NOT encrypted (coming from oscam for example) you'll get nothing worthwhile back..

So what happens when you put a card back in oscam or put it back in an SD box or an old HD box and leave it..?
If the card is unable to verify it's running in a new HD box [after x amount of time (or cycles) or following a new install/pairing process], it reverts back to the original system we all know and love, which is of course easy for most to share.
[I'm sure their lawyers have reminded Sky not to enforce a blackout on paying customers for fear of prosecution or maybe Sky have acknowledged some people may use their own older boxes in the event of a failure..]

How long Sky allow the card to revert back on the other hand is the question most pay servers should be considering..

As it stands now the new system does nothing to prevent c/s, however, once Sky are happy they have updated all the smartcards (all those EMMs you've been seeing...) and have completed most (if not all) of the box upgrades, expect to see some disruption.

When this will be, you'll have to ask the boys over at Sky (and I'm not talking about their installers / customer support agents here lol)

Here's a quick overview of both the old and new data exchange:

Current:
ECM/EMM Data is fed to the box via the MPEG stream, it then passes it to the card for a response.

New:
ECM/EMM Data is fed to the box via the MPEG stream, it then further encrypts the data using a pairing key before passing it on to the card. The card decrypts this in order to then decrypt and process the original ECM/EMM command. The reply is then encrypted [again using the pairing key] and sent back to the box, which then decrypts and executes it.

Both the original ECM/EMM data and the reply have not changed, the only thing that has changed is the way the data was exchanged between the box and the card..

Very interesting (albeit expected) development from bskyb to combat piracy, from what I have read elsewhere Sky Italia have been using the system for about 6 months and all HD channels should be under the umbrella of the new encryption system before the world cup comes around.

I suppose at the end of the day the system will be broke but it will give sky much needed breathing space - internet streaming I take will be their next big area to tackle

radiowaves · 23-05-2014 08:12PM

irishfeen wrote: »

From thread on DS -

Very interesting (albeit expected) development from bskyb to combat piracy, from what I have read elsewhere Sky Italia have been using the system for about 6 months and all channels should be under the umbrella of the new encryption system before the world cup comes around.

I suppose at the end of the day the system will be broke but it will give sky much needed breathing space - internet streaming I take will be their next big area to tackle

Certainly not the case

irishfeen · 23-05-2014 08:14PM

radiowaves wrote: »

Certainly not the case

Ha thanks for pointing that out radio, I meant HD channels... SD will remain on the old system until all old boxes are upgraded (which will happen in due course) - I would expect all boxes to be upgraded within 12 months though.

radiowaves · 23-05-2014 08:15PM

irishfeen wrote: »

Ha thanks for pointing that out radio, I meant HD channels... SD will remain on the old system until all old boxes are upgraded (which will happen in due course)

Ah, I see that now

flutered · 23-05-2014 08:15PM

reading the international fourms, it seems that the sky italia has succumbed to a hacker, is there not someone always trying to outsmart the authoritys.

irishfeen · 23-05-2014 08:18PM

flutered wrote: »

reading the international fourms, it seems that the sky italia has succumbed to a hacker, is there not someone always trying to outsmart the authoritys.

Really?? :eek: ... first I have heard about it, I have heard it was rolled across sky Italy about 6 months ago.

tinner777 · 23-05-2014 08:19PM

irishfeen wrote: »

Ha thanks for pointing that out radio, I meant HD channels... SD will remain on the old system until all old boxes are upgraded (which will happen in due course) - I would expect all boxes to be upgraded within 12 months though.

no chance of that until sky drop the sub charge for hd

radiowaves · 23-05-2014 08:20PM

irishfeen wrote: »

Really?? :eek: ... first I have heard about it, I have heard it was rolled across sky Italy about 6 months ago.

It was (all HD channels).

What he's saying is that it's (rumoured to have) been hacked.

irishfeen · 23-05-2014 08:21PM

tinner777 wrote: »

no chance of that until sky drop the sub charge for hd

Could of course just directly replace all old boxes free of charge to let people remain on their normal subscription.

radiowaves · 23-05-2014 08:21PM

tinner777 wrote: »

no chance of that until sky drop the sub charge for hd

Subscribers don't need to be HD subscribers to receive the new box.

Once all the HD channels are on the new pairing system they will start targeting the SD boxes. Once most subscribers are on the newer boxes I would expect the HD charge to be dropped (it effectively subsidises the boxes).

irishfeen · 23-05-2014 08:26PM

Just googled the potential sky Italy "hack" and it doesn't seem all what its cracked up to be - boxes are suppose to be selling for thousands of euro.

CL7 · 23-05-2014 08:48PM

That would be the cost to the server though, obv. Looks like it could be fake but it's only a matter of time before a real hack is released.

irishfeen wrote: »

internet streaming I take will be their next big area to tackle

Unless they figure out how to lock down the internet, preventing streaming is pretty much an impossibility.

irishfeen · 23-05-2014 09:22PM

CL7 wrote: »

That would be the cost to the server though, obv. Looks like it could be fake but it's only a matter of time before a real hack is released.

Unless they figure out how to lock down the internet, preventing streaming is pretty much an impossibility.

I suppose we could see tighter controls on streaming websites from internet providers and the likes - if sky can make the encryption system unbreakable then it would be massive in the fight against piracy. To be brutally honest sky and other subscription broadcasters should really look at themselves and ask themselves why people actually go to the bother of doing this - rising prices are unsustainable in the long term and it will come to a point where people will just refuse to pay.

red bellied · 23-05-2014 10:09PM

Sure if Sky stop the cardsharing won't this also stop the illegal streams? , am I correct in thinking that the sites for streaming are sourced from card sharing? I know there will be still plenty of sources available for streaming but may be this will stop it at Sky's end.

lertsnim · 23-05-2014 10:27PM

Most people watching illegal streams will be watching for sport. Most streams for games that I would see are from non UK broadcasters. As much as Sky might try they will never stop it.

irishfeen · 24-05-2014 12:33AM

lertsnim wrote: »

Most people watching illegal streams will be watching for sport. Most streams for games that I would see are from non UK broadcasters. As much as Sky might try they will never stop it.

Still obviously the English language and the sky feed in particular would be the most sought after for those who indulge in streaming matches. I think the NBC PL feeds will majorly increase off the back of this as direct HD streaming from certain boxes in the UK will probably be more difficult.

radiowaves · 24-05-2014 10:06AM

I'm trying to figure where this "before the World Cup" idea came from (I know you're just reporting on what you've read elsewhere Irishfeen).

I don't doubt that it may well be completed before then but I don't think Sky execs are thinking that way - Sky don't have the World Cup!

Any World Cup matches in HD on their system will be available on FTA channels (apart from RTÉ Two of course but that would hardly be prioritised).

I think whoever first posted this may have got confused thanks to Bein Sports' announcement in which they have publicly stated that ALL of their channels (SD and the remaining HDs) will be "secure" by the time the World Cup kicks off. Bein Sports will be covering the World Cup.

MrFrisp · 24-05-2014 10:25AM

irishfeen wrote: »

Just googled the potential sky Italy "hack" and it doesn't seem all what its cracked up to be - boxes are suppose to be selling for thousands of euro.

I have heard that also.

It has been beaten, so I'm told, but they will only release it to big servers as there is so much money involved.

A lot of the people that hack it are the same people behind the decryption in the first place.

Money has a lot of persuasion in that line of business.
.

irishfeen · 24-05-2014 10:41AM

radiowaves wrote: »

I'm trying to figure where this "before the World Cup" idea came from (I know you're just reporting on what you've read elsewhere Irishfeen).

I don't doubt that it may well be completed before then but I don't think Sky execs are thinking that way - Sky don't have the World Cup!

Any World Cup matches in HD on their system will be available on FTA channels (apart from RTÉ Two of course but that would hardly be prioritised).

I think whoever first posted this may have got confused thanks to Bein Sports' announcement in which they have publicly stated that ALL of their channels (SD and the remaining HDs) will be "secure" by the time the World Cup kicks off. Bein Sports will be covering the World Cup.

As you say radiowaves i'm just passing on information but it could very well have been leaked from inside sky - its hard enough to understand how the new encryption system will work but i'm taking for granted that the channels already under the new system are basically in "test" phase and if successful (as in no problems reported) then it could be rolled out across the rest of the HD channels overnight.

radiowaves · 24-05-2014 10:46AM

irishfeen wrote: »

As you say radiowaves i'm just passing on information but it could very well have been leaked from inside sky - its hard enough to understand how the new encryption system will work but i'm taking for granted that the channels already under the new system are basically in "test" phase and if successful (as in no problems reported) then it could be rolled out across the rest of the HD channels overnight.

100% agree with you mate - and the fact that some of the premium channels have now been "knocked out" suggests the next stage is in progress (ie see if any premium rate subscribers are affected).

I just wonder about the "World Cup" reference - a leak from inside Sky wouldn't reference that. As I said, Sky have no reason to use that as a reference point. (Whereas Bein Sports do.)

irishfeen · 24-05-2014 10:52AM

radiowaves wrote: »

100% agree with you mate - and the fact that some of the premium channels have now been "knocked out" suggests the next stage is in progress (ie see if any premium rate subscribers are affected).

I just wonder about the "World Cup" reference - a leak from inside Sky wouldn't reference that. As I said, Sky have no reason to use that as a reference point. (Whereas Bein Sports do.)

Maybe they decided to get their act together alongside Bein Sport and it became a date too for which they decided would work well - I suppose you could say during the WC would actually be the perfect time to roll it out across Sky Sports as viewership would be massively reduced and all major sporting events would have finished so if something did go wrong it wouldn't cause chaos (can you imagine if all genuine subscriptions went down during a massive PL/CL game)

same ol sh1te · 24-05-2014 11:23AM

It's a game of whack a mole and always will be

lertsnim · 24-05-2014 04:08PM

irishfeen wrote: »

Still obviously the English language and the sky feed in particular would be the most sought after for those who indulge in streaming matches. I think the NBC PL feeds will majorly increase off the back of this as direct HD streaming from certain boxes in the UK will probably be more difficult.

There are plenty of English language non sky streams available every week. It's only European providers that are restricted with language options. If I was to find a Sky/BT stream I'd be quick to look for another as their commentary is usually abysmal and I am far from alone. Sky Sports isn't the pinnacle of football broadcasting that many think

watty · 24-05-2014 07:34PM

CL7 wrote: »

Unless they figure out how to lock down the internet, preventing streaming is pretty much an impossibility.

There is a way to stop Internet card sharing. Which is low bandwidth and NOT streaming. Actual video re-encoding and streaming can't be stopped. At one level you can point a digital camera at an HDTV to get an HD feed even without attacking HDMI's HDCP DRM.

Obviously I'm not going to explain how Card Sharing works or why I know it can be blocked.

Either take out a valid subscription or only watch FTA TV. Actually if people boycotted Sky Sports, Setanta BT Pay TV etc, the "sport" Pay TV model would collapse and the matches would be on FTA TV.

kippy · 24-05-2014 09:11PM

watty wrote: »

There is a way to stop Internet card sharing. Which is low bandwidth and NOT streaming. Actual video re-encoding and streaming can't be stopped. At one level you can point a digital camera at an HDTV to get an HD feed even without attacking HDMI's HDCP DRM.

Obviously I'm not going to explain how Card Sharing works or why I know it can be blocked.

Either take out a valid subscription or only watch FTA TV. Actually if people boycotted Sky Sports, Setanta BT Pay TV etc, the "sport" Pay TV model would collapse and the matches would be on FTA TV.

Yeah but then you wouldnt have players like Rooney earning 300K a week.........

basill · 24-05-2014 11:26PM

I would hazard a guess and say that Mr Rooney has very little else going for himself so would take whatever the market rate was.

mikeym · 25-05-2014 03:51PM

Sky 1 - Pirates 1

Sky will take a 2-1 lead if they block all the HD channels.

Im not familiar with the encryption process to make a valid comment.

watty · 25-05-2014 07:14PM

kippy wrote: »

Yeah but then you wouldnt have players like Rooney earning 300K a week.........

If the players and clubs paid a more sensible amount the game quality would improve. The amount of money from "Rights" is turning what used to be a sport into a "celebrity spectacle".

same ol sh1te · 25-05-2014 07:46PM

watty wrote: »

If the players and clubs paid a more sensible amount the game quality would improve. The amount of money from "Rights" is turning what used to be a sport into a "celebrity spectacle".

The same argument could even be used, If sky charged a decent price people would pay it and not look for alternatives

Gerry Wicklow · 25-05-2014 09:28PM

It's the age old story, as long as people are foolish enough willing to pay big prices, companies will keep charging them.

mikeym · 25-05-2014 10:45PM

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

It's the age old story, as long as people are foolish enough willing to pay big prices, companies will keep charging them.

Sure Sky Movies isnt as popular as it used to be and Sky have a few offers to increase subscribers.

Netflix is kicking Sky's butt at the moment.

Sky introduce new encryption system to combat piracy (HD Channels have began switch)

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