Convicted child killer canvassing for sinn fein[Mod warning-First Post]

Kevhog1988 · 23-05-2014 11:35AM

DubVelo wrote: »

Have any British soldiers ever served time for their actions in NI?

Edit: I'm genuinely wondering, I don't know.

Not as far as I'm aware… I would be fairly well read on the subject of irelands history and particularly the irish fight for independence but i have never come across any mention of a british soldier being convicted.

FTA69 · 23-05-2014 11:37AM

DubVelo wrote: »

Have any British soldiers ever served time for their actions in NI?

Edit: I'm genuinely wondering, I don't know.

I think Lee Clegg did a year or two for shooting two 16 year olds in the back. Of course he was let out.

Two Guardsmen also murdered 18 year old civilian Peter McBride in 1992, shooting him in the back as he ran away when they began to shout at him. They were released after a few years, readmitted to the British Army and subsequently promoted.

The above stories aren't often talked about by the moral outrage brigade.

Banjo String · 23-05-2014 11:39AM

DubVelo wrote: »

Have any British soldiers ever served time for their actions in NI?

Edit: I'm genuinely wondering, I don't know.

Lee Clegg is fresh in my mind.

But then again, his conviction was overturned. Real hero soldier and no doubt about it.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Clegg

Kevhog1988 · 23-05-2014 11:39AM

FTA69 wrote: »

I think Lee Clegg did a year or two for shooting two 16 year olds in the back. Of course he was let out.

Two Guardsmen also murdered 18 year old civilian Peter McBride in 1992, shooting him in the back as he ran away when they began to shout at him. They were released after a few years, readmitted to the British Army and subsequently promoted.

The above stories aren't often talked about by the moral outrage brigade.

I've never come across them. Any idea where id read up on that??

FTA69 · 23-05-2014 11:41AM

bumper234 wrote: »

Not in the least Dan, I just live in the real world

Out of curiosity, considering you're a proud ex-combatant yourself I'm wondering where your sense of moral highground is coming from on this particular issue.

Now, I'm not suggesting you've been responsible for any wrongdoings; but the organisation of which you were a member has a long track record of child casualties (many of which were blatantly deliberate) both in Ireland and abroad. But yet you feel no remorse or shame over being part of such an organisation and I'd also imagine you don't believe that ex-soldiers should be excluded from political life in Ireland or Britain either.

There's more than a touch of hypocrisy about your position on this particular issue to be honest.

Dan_Solo · 23-05-2014 11:42AM

Can anyone pretending IRA members should not be considered soldiers tell me what non-existent war the British army were deployed to Northern (and Southern) Ireland to fight in?

FTA69 · 23-05-2014 11:43AM

theemigrant wrote: »

I've never come across them. Any idea where id read up on that??

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2003/sep/10/northernireland.northernireland

This is an article about Peter McBride. The Clegg case was huge news at the time and his release led to riots across West Belfast.

tayto lover · 23-05-2014 11:45AM

This incident is still fresh in my mind but nobody did time for it.

http://ulsterherald.com/2013/02/21/brother-recalls-controversial-killing-of-aidan-mcanespie-25-years-on/

bumper234 · 23-05-2014 11:45AM

FTA69 wrote: »

Out of curiosity, considering you're a proud ex-combatant yourself I'm wondering where your sense of moral highground is coming from on this particular issue.

Now, I'm not suggesting you've been responsible for any wrongdoings; but the organisation of which you were a member has a long track record of child casualties (many of which were blatantly deliberate) both in Ireland and abroad. But yet you feel no remorse or shame over being part of such an organisation and I'd also imagine you don't believe that ex-soldiers should be excluded from political life in Ireland or Britain either.

There's more than a touch of hypocrisy about your position on this particular issue to be honest.

How do you know what i feel?

Imagine what you like sir i have nothing against ex soldiers going into politics, I do have a thing about politicians using convicted child killers to help canvas for them. I would feel the same outrage if a British politician used one of Jamie Bulgers killers or any other child killer to help canvass for his campaign.

fergus1001 · 23-05-2014 11:46AM

Let's settle this. A few home truths

All politicians are a shower of ****

And they all have blood on their hands

And iwasfrozen and others are capitalist pigs

FTA69 · 23-05-2014 11:48AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Can anyone pretending IRA members should not be considered soldiers tell me what non-existent war the British army were deployed to Northern (and Southern) Ireland to fight in?

It was simply a glorified criminal conspiracy, not a political conflict. There was absolutely zero political context in the northern state and before 1969 there was never a long-running political dispute contested by a separatist political tradition. The government never practiced internment without trial, torture and collusion with death squads. They never passed inherently political laws nor incarcerated people over politically-motivated activity.

Nope, the Brits were there to stop glorified handbag snatchers and to stop the mad Paddies killing each other over religion.

Sin é.

Grayson · 23-05-2014 11:50AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Curious similarities in the defence of strategies here wouldn't you say Fred?

Just substitute a few names and you have the IRA defence;

there's a difference. That wasn't the deliberate targeting of children. That was indiscriminate killing.
It was horrific. there's an english philosopher who's a big history buff. He wrote a book about it called "among the dead cities" He examines all the historical evidence in the first half of the book and then examines it from an ethical perspective. He looks to see if there was any excusing it. Were there benefits that justified it. His conclusion is that there is no way, under any ethical framework, that it can be justified.

neither can killing the kids that were with mountbatton.

they're both cowardly acts.

Chips Lovell · 23-05-2014 11:50AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Can anyone pretending IRA members should not be considered soldiers tell me what non-existent war the British army were deployed to Northern (and Southern) Ireland to fight in?

So if an army is deployed against any threat their opponents are automatically soldiers? Interesting definition.

Grayson · 23-05-2014 11:52AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Can anyone pretending IRA members should not be considered soldiers tell me what non-existent war the British army were deployed to Northern (and Southern) Ireland to fight in?

My Granddad. He fought in 1616, the war if independance and the civil war. He used to say that the guys in the north weren't soldiers and weren't the IRA. The IRA had been disbanded. the guys in the north were just gurriers with guns.

Fratton Fred · 23-05-2014 11:53AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Curious similarities in the defence of strategies here wouldn't you say Fred?

Just substitute a few names and you have the IRA defence;

I love the way you guys drag something from history and use it to justify a PIRA atrocity.

Sure, bombing a Macdonalds on a Saturday lunchtime was grand, didn't the British start the opium war?

Dan_Solo · 23-05-2014 11:54AM

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

So if an army is deployed against any threat their opponents are automatically soldiers? Interesting definition.

I see, the Korea/Vietnam/Iraq/Ukraine excuse.
We didn't declare war so there was no war.
Both sides called themselves an army. They were fighting each other.
Tell me why then one side should not be called a soldier.
If you want to get into whether they were wearing uniforms or not we can do that too.

Kevhog1988 · 23-05-2014 11:54AM

bumper234 wrote: »

How do you know what i feel?

Imagine what you like sir i have nothing against ex soldiers going into politics, I do have a thing about politicians using convicted child killers to help canvas for them. I would feel the same outrage if a British politician used one of Jamie Bulgers killers or any other child killer to help canvass for his campaign.

you really dont seem to understand the fact that these people were fighting to end unionism…. the fact that they did receive political status in the past is testament to the fact that britain did regard it as a war and hence the IRA volunteers were classed as soldiers.

Happyman42 · 23-05-2014 11:56AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I love the way you guys drag something from history and use it to justify a PIRA atrocity.

Sure, bombing a Macdonalds on a Saturday lunchtime was grand, didn't the British start the opium war?

The IRA are history Fred, the British are still involved in bombing innocent people into the acceptance of their 'gifts' around the world.

Go figure!

Fratton Fred · 23-05-2014 11:56AM

theemigrant wrote: »

you really dont seem to understand the fact that these people were fighting to end unionism…. the fact that they did receive political status in the past is testament to the fact that britain did regard it as a war and hence the IRA volunteers were classed as soldiers.

It's semantics to be honest, if they were soldiers engaged in a war, this was a war crime.

Fratton Fred · 23-05-2014 11:58AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

The IRA are history Fred, the British are still involved in bombing innocent people into the acceptance of their 'gifts' around the world.

Go figure!

Oil, oil pipelines, err lizard illuminati something or other.

Chips Lovell · 23-05-2014 11:58AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I see, the Korea/Vietnam/Iraq/Ukraine excuse.
We didn't declare war so there was no war.
Both sides called themselves an army. They were fighting each other.
Tell me why then one side should not be called a soldier.
If you want to get into whether they were wearing uniforms or not we can do that too.

I suppose the lads in the UVF can be classed as "soldiers" (or brave volunteers :rolleyes:) too?

Or anyone trying to rob a cash-in-transit van that has an army escort?

Happyman42 · 23-05-2014 12:01PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Oil, oil pipelines, err lizard illuminati something or other.

The FACTS speak for themselves I always find Fred.

FTA69 · 23-05-2014 12:04PM

bumper234 wrote: »

How do you know what i feel?

Imagine what you like sir i have nothing against ex soldiers going into politics, I do have a thing about politicians using convicted child killers to help canvas for them. I would feel the same outrage if a British politician used one of Jamie Bulgers killers or any other child killer to help canvass for his campaign.

Well you've defended the British Army a number of times and have stated above that you have no bother with ex-soldiers going into politics. This despite the fact that the British Army has a record of killing children that far supersedes that of the IRA.

Also, can you drop the Jamie Bulger stuff? It's a silly analogy.

Would you have any problem with a politician using an ex-helicopter gunship pilot to canvass? What about someone involved in aerial bombardment in Iraq?

At the end of the day your position boils down to:

IRA= evil terrorists
British Army = gallant soliders.

And to be honest that sort of black and white nonsense applied to ex-combatants in Ireland is always going to sound hollow. Especially considering you're an ex-combatant yourself.

Kevhog1988 · 23-05-2014 12:04PM

Grayson wrote: »

My Granddad. He fought in 1616, the war if independance and the civil war. He used to say that the guys in the north weren't soldiers and weren't the IRA. The IRA had been disbanded. the guys in the north were just gurriers with guns.

My great grandfather did the same…. Fought in 1916, and was shot in the leg at Mbeal na Mblath but he was adamant that Jack Lynch should have allowed the army to mobilise and help the people of the bog side. (this is often seen as the beginning of the troubles)

"An Taoiseach, Jack Lynch, addressed the people of Ireland. He calls on the British government to request an UN Peacekeeping Force, announces the setting up of field hospitals on the border and declares that the Irish government will 'no longer stand by and see innocent people injured or even worse'."

However the help never came so the people of Derry were forced to try and help themselves. The Ira although very badly under armed (with mostly sporting rifles, pistols and historic lee enfield's) attempted to protect the inhabitants of the bogside from the ruc and unionist attacks (i dont like using the word protestant)

Dan_Solo · 23-05-2014 12:05PM

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I suppose the lads in the UVF can be classed as "soldiers" (or brave volunteers :rolleyes:) too?

Or anyone trying to rob a cash-in-transit van that has an army escort?

UVF? Why not? They were pretty much a division of the BA anyway.
I'm not going to defend paramilitaries attacking purely civilian targets specifically though. I don't agree with them coming under the GFA.

Banjo String · 23-05-2014 12:07PM

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I suppose the lads in the UVF can be classed as "soldiers" (or brave volunteers :rolleyes:) too?

Well seeing as collusion with British security forces was rampant within them, some may view them as another unit of the British forces.

I'm not aware of many of their campaigns going up against military targets though. More random shootings of people based on their religious persuasion, and even this was sometimes irrelevant in the case of the rising sun shooting.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greysteel_massacre

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Or anyone trying to rob a cash-in-transit van that has an army escort?

Tsk, and you were doing so well.

Fratton Fred · 23-05-2014 12:07PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

The FACTS speak for themselves I always find Fred.

Yeah, because you care about facts don't you?

Facts according to an phoblacht that is.

Chips Lovell · 23-05-2014 12:07PM

Thought as much

kingchess · 23-05-2014 12:10PM

Grayson wrote: »

My Granddad. He fought in 1616, the war if independance and the civil war. He used to say that the guys in the north weren't soldiers and weren't the IRA. The IRA had been disbanded. the guys in the north were just gurriers with guns.

your grandfather must have lived a very long life:D

Fratton Fred · 23-05-2014 12:11PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

UVF? Why not? They were pretty much a division of the BA anyway.
I'm not going to defend paramilitaries attacking purely civilian targets specifically though. I don't agree with them coming under the GFA.

Could you define civilian?

Convicted child killer canvassing for sinn fein[Mod warning-First Post]

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