what is disadvantaged

23-05-2014 09:50AM #1

Who exactly are the disadvantaged in our society?, a modern European welfare state.

The ding dong about third level students got me thinking about this, I would have serious reservation about reflecting to a teenager that they are "disadvantaged" just because they are from a lone parenting background or grew up with little money or you are " disadvantaged" because your parents did not attend third level and so on, the whole mentality is batty.

Even in my day well over 30 year ago lot of "normal" people went to college an nobody batted an eyelid about it, yet today it is a narrative of how they "battled" to overcome the "disadvantage" of their working class backgrounds... and on top of that its insulting to thousands of ordinary working people.

wazky · 23-05-2014 09:53AM

A man with no arms and itchy balls.

ThisRegard · 23-05-2014 09:57AM

mariaalice wrote: »

Even in my day well over 30 year ago lot of "normal" people went to college an nobody batted an eyelid about it,

I wouldn't really agree with that, third level fees weren't 'abolished' until around 1995 and prior to that if you didn't get some sort of grant from the local VEC or whatever, or had plenty of money, it wasn't that easily accessible compared to now. When the fees were abolished the number of applicants, and those who eventually accepted a place, shot up.

Few people are impoverished compared to the 80s and 70s. The poverty which most reports, which tend to be biased, talk about is relative poverty. You get a lot of people doing very well for themselves these days, and it's these people that the 'have nots' are compared against. If there's a big gap, some claim these have nots are living in poverty.

BetterThanThou · 23-05-2014 10:04AM

I don't feel "disadvantaged" people really exist in Ireland. If someone's parents can't afford to put them through college, usually the government will cover the expenses. I also don't feel someone's parents effect weather they go to college and get a good job either. I know someone who is a millionaire(or close to it, definitely.), he worked for every single cent he has, and he's an extremely hard working man. But his kids would rather sit on their asses collecting the dole than follow in his footsteps. At the same time, I know people who have absolute wasters as parents, but they went to college and are following their dream career path. In fact, I'd say people who are considered "disadvantaged" are more likely to get a good education, after seeing how their parents turned out. Getting a college education in this country is all about the willingness to do it, it's rarely about the money. And this is one thing our government is great at.

Bubbaclaus · 23-05-2014 10:05AM

Using some peoples descriptions, I would be considered "disadvantaged".

But I'm not.

Davarus Walrus · 23-05-2014 10:06AM

Only having a basic SKY package.

23-05-2014 10:08AM

ThisRegard wrote: »

I wouldn't really agree with that, third level fees weren't 'abolished' until around 1995 and prior to that if you didn't get some sort of grant from the local VEC or whatever, or had plenty of money, it wasn't that easily accessible compared to now. When the fees were abolished the number of applicants, and those who eventually accepted a place, shot up.

Nearly every one I knew got a VEC grand and college tended to be Bolton st or Kevin st or the ITs, you had to get two higher level to get the grant, but it was still college and it wasn't all that unusual, your background was not seen as something you had to "battle" to over come. it was just part of life and you got on with it.

Duggy747 · 23-05-2014 10:10AM

People having less than 50MB Broadband speed.

Peasants.

Turtyturd · 23-05-2014 10:12AM

I wish I came from a loan parent household instead of the full time ones I got.

endacl · 23-05-2014 10:13AM

Duggy747 wrote: »

People having less than 50MB Broadband speed.

Peasants.

Is the latter a description of the former, or are you giving two answers?

23-05-2014 10:13AM

Everything is relative, and all metrics change to reflect the current standards. The standard of living in the West has consistently improved since the 70's and 80's, so comparative poverty has been measured by new standards. In the 70's it was common for households to be without a telephone, it would be hard to find a household where there is no phone or mobile now.

jimgoose · 23-05-2014 10:17AM

Well, the way I'd understand the term "disadvantaged" is referring to someone from a household/situation that is impoverished to the extent that the basics, i.e. food, heat, clothing, are difficult to meet, that may also be unstable due to parent(s)/guardian(s) that have problems with health, addiction, violence, being assholes, etc. and where basic education is neglected.

As far as I can see most people who bandy the term about with wild abandon these days are self-absorbed shytehawks looking for someone to congratulate them for being able to use a knife-and-fork.

23-05-2014 10:19AM

Its not about poverty as such, it reflecting to a teenager that for example you are "disadvantaged" because you come from a background where your parent(s) don't have third level education.

jimgoose · 23-05-2014 10:21AM

mariaalice wrote: »

Its not about poverty as such, it reflecting to a teenager that for example you are "disadvantaged" because you come from a background where your parent(s) don't have third level education.

What in the actual fortified fúck?? By that rationale I myself am "Disadvantaged"! I want grants!! :pac::pac::pac:

jellyboy · 23-05-2014 10:22AM

Turtyturd wrote: »

I wish I came from a loan parent household instead of the full time ones I got.

See above op…

Richard Hillman · 23-05-2014 10:23AM

Being stuck in the middle where you are deemed too wealthy to avail of medical cards, council houses and Student grants. And not wealthy enough to avail of things such as Health Insurance, being able to purchase a house etc. It is the people that are stuck in the middle that have the least advantage in society.

23-05-2014 10:24AM

It odd really. We're often quick to dismiss a disadvantage (coming from a more disadvantaged secondary school, for example), while at the same time we over emphasise the impact of advantages - they came from a wealthy family/privately educated etc., so everything is easy for them.

Some people have more hurdles to jump than others, and some have very few material hurdles but have a harder time because of unquantifiable factors.

wolfeye · 23-05-2014 10:28AM

The person that goes to work everyday,pays lots of tax and gets nothing.

Akrasia · 23-05-2014 10:30AM

You are disadvantaged if your parents are incapable of raising a healthy well adjusted child.

It's not just about money.

If you don't believe that 'disadvantage' exists, think about it like this:
Two scumbags (however you define that) get together and produce a child. On the day the baby is born, you can confidently predict that the child will probably end up on the dole/in prison.

As a society we have a choice, we can pretend that disadvantage does not exist and then act surprised when the next generation of 'scumbags' emerges, or we can develop social services to try and give extra assistance and support to kids from these families to give them the best possible chance to succeed in life.

seamus · 23-05-2014 10:34AM

Disadvantaged is a relative term, not an absolute one. Compared to someone in rural Africa, nobody in Ireland is disadvantaged. The word "advantage" in itself implies relativity, since in order to be at a disadvantage, someone else needs to be in a better position.

Thus "disadvantaged" refers to people who by circumstance are denied access or unable to get access to opportunities which are available to the majority.

23-05-2014 10:43AM

Akrasia wrote: »

You are disadvantaged if your parents are incapable of raising a healthy well adjusted child.

It's not just about money.

If you don't believe that 'disadvantage' exists, think about it like this:
Two scumbags (however you define that) get together and produce a child. On the day the baby is born, you can confidently predict that the child will probably end up on the dole/in prison.

As a society we have a choice, we can pretend that disadvantage does not exist and then act surprised when the next generation of 'scumbags' emerges, or we can develop social services to try and give extra assistance and support to kids from these families to give them the best possible chance to succeed in life.

You are missing my point I am all for increased accesses to college

Look at it like this.

There was a girl lets say her name was Roisin, her parents are separated and she lives with her mother who works part time in retail, Roisin is very much loved by her mother and father and her large extended working class family, she goes to the local community school where she is bright and popular, she becomes head girl, she also grew up with very little in the way of money.

Now she is applying for college and while she is applying for college it will be reflected to her that she can get extra help because she if from a " disadvantage background" ...lone parent family, no parents with third level education, mother in receipt of family income supplement.

Turtyturd · 23-05-2014 10:56AM

mariaalice wrote: »

You are missing my point I am all for increased accesses to college

Look at it like this.

There was a girl lets say her name was Roisin, her parents are separated and she lives with her mother who works part time in retail, Roisin is very much loved by her mother and father and her large extended working class family, she goes to the local community school where she is bright and popular, she becomes head girl, she also grew up with very little in the way of money.

Now she is applying for college and while she is applying for college it will be reflected to her that she can get extra help because she if from a " disadvantage background" ...lone parent family, no parents with third level education, mother in receipt of family income supplement.

Is there some of that post missing?

23-05-2014 11:14AM

My point is that some one like Roisn is not disadvantaged, while accesses and help to get to college is fantastic for the Roisns of Ireland... she and thousand like her are not disadvantaged and it perpetuates a belief that that there is something wrong with living in normal circumstances and that some how the thousands upon thousand of parents who work in retail, drive vans for a living and so on are bringing up their children in "disadvantage circumstances" They are not.

The second thing and it often come up on boards and its a bit of Dublin thing, is that in Dublin there are only two way of living, you either live in a "nice area" or you live in an area which is crawling heroin addicted scumbags again that's wildly untrue, and its grosly insulting to thousand of normal working people.

The sheer normality of going to college for everyone who want to is what it should be about, not this battling to overcome your "disadvantaged" background.

mfergus · 23-05-2014 11:28AM

The disadvantaged are the people who work for a living.
The "advantaged" are those who don't work but are given everything by the government and probably have more than the disadvantaged working person.

Seaneh · 23-05-2014 11:30AM

seamus wrote: »

Disadvantaged is a relative term, not an absolute one. Compared to someone in rural Africa, nobody in Ireland is disadvantaged. The word "advantage" in itself implies relativity, since in order to be at a disadvantage, someone else needs to be in a better position.

Thus "disadvantaged" refers to people who by circumstance are denied access or unable to get access to opportunities which are available to the majority.

This.

To say that a child growing up in Gardiner Street or Kevin Street has the same access to amenities, services, good schools, etc as a child form Clontarf or Dalkey is just silly, this is a disadvantage. It doesn't mean they are living in a rat ridden hovel, they just don't have the same access to things as others in society.

Turtyturd · 23-05-2014 11:45AM

mariaalice wrote: »

My point is that some one like Roisn is not disadvantaged, while accesses and help to get to college is fantastic for the Roisns of Ireland... she and thousand like her are not disadvantaged and it perpetuates a belief that that there is something wrong with living in normal circumstances and that some how the thousands upon thousand of parents who work in retail, drive vans for a living and so on are bringing up their children in "disadvantage circumstances" They are not.

The second thing and it often come up on boards and its a bit of Dublin thing, is that in Dublin there are only two way of living, you either live in a "nice area" or you live in an area which is crawling heroin addicted scumbags again that's wildly untrue, and its grosly insulting to thousand of normal working people.

The sheer normality of going to college for everyone who want to is what it should be about, not this battling to overcome your "disadvantaged" background.

But that's looking at disadvantage from a monetary point of view it incorporates much more than that. What if Roisin wants to go to college but her school is a VEC school which doesn't promote 3rd level education, that's being disadvantaged. Or if she gets the information about a course but is unaware of how to access grants, that's a form of being disadvantaged. Or if Roisins mother has the attitude that she has been in education long enough and after school should get a job to contribute to the house?

23-05-2014 11:46AM

Seaneh wrote: »

This.

To say that a child growing up in Gardiner Street or Kevin Street has the same access to amenities, services, good schools, etc as a child form Clontarf or Dalkey is just silly, this is a disadvantage. It doesn't mean they are living in a rat ridden hovel, they just don't have the same access to things as others in society.

Again that's the either or myth, why pick those two areas, what about a family living in clonsilla, the mother works in retail and the father drives a van for marcorni foods, the children go to the local community school and are raised by parents who love them very much, so are they disadvantaged because the parents do not have third level education and money is tight in the house?

steddyeddy · 23-05-2014 11:50AM

Well the disadvantaged teenager in my experience is from a foster or care home and maybe subject to a history of abuse. That implies not only financial disadvantage but maybe emotional problems or mental health difficulties.

23-05-2014 11:53AM

Turtyturd wrote: »

But that's looking at disadvantage from a monetary point of view it incorporates much more than that. What if Roisin wants to go to college but her school is a VEC school which doesn't promote 3rd level education, that's being disadvantaged. Or if she gets the information about a course but is unaware of how to access grants, that's a form of being disadvantaged. Or if Roisins mother has the attitude that she has been in education long enough and after school should get a job to contribute to the house?

They are disadvantages of course they are, but all the money in the world will not change inner attitude to education, attitude and the value of education is a personal thing and tied to social class all the money in the word will not change attitude to education. There are no schools in the Ireland of today that do not promote third level education its almost forced on children.

Again attitude is a different thing.

Turtyturd · 23-05-2014 11:54AM

mariaalice wrote: »

Again that's the either or myth, why pick those two areas, what about a family living in clonsilla, the mother works in retail and the father drives a van for marcorni foods, the children go to the local community school and are raised by parents who love them very much, so are they disadvantaged because the parents do not have third level education and money is tight in the house?

Again that's looking at disadvantage from a narrow perspective.

Seaneh · 23-05-2014 11:56AM

mariaalice wrote: »

Again that's the either or myth, why pick those two areas, what about a family living in clonsilla, the mother works in retail and the father drives a van for marcorni foods, the children go to the local community school and are raised by parents who love them very much, so are they disadvantaged because the parents do not have third level education and money is tight in the house?

Nobody besides you and one other person said being disadvantaged has anything to do with parents working in the service inudtry or not having a 3rd level education.

Compared to people in Clonsilla or Artane, people in Gardiner Street are still disadvantaged for the same reasons as when compared to people from clontarf or dalkey for the same reasons.

I live in Artane, there are several excellent schools in the area, there is an amazing amount of sporting amenities, there are fantastic parks and green areas within walking distance, it's a much better place to live for lots of reasons than the city centre, but it's still very working class.

what is disadvantaged

Comments