what is disadvantaged

Who exactly are the disadvantaged in our society?, a modern European welfare state.

The ding dong about third level students got me thinking about this, I would have serious reservation about reflecting to a teenager that they are "disadvantaged" just because they are from a lone parenting background or grew up with little money or you are " disadvantaged" because your parents did not attend third level and so on, the whole mentality is batty.

Even in my day well over 30 year ago lot of "normal" people went to college an nobody batted an eyelid about it, yet today it is a narrative of how they "battled" to overcome the "disadvantage" of their working class backgrounds... and on top of that its insulting to thousands of ordinary working people.

wazky

A man with no arms and itchy balls.

ThisRegard

mariaalice wrote: »

Even in my day well over 30 year ago lot of "normal" people went to college an nobody batted an eyelid about it,

I wouldn't really agree with that, third level fees weren't 'abolished' until around 1995 and prior to that if you didn't get some sort of grant from the local VEC or whatever, or had plenty of money, it wasn't that easily accessible compared to now. When the fees were abolished the number of applicants, and those who eventually accepted a place, shot up.

Few people are impoverished compared to the 80s and 70s. The poverty which most reports, which tend to be biased, talk about is relative poverty. You get a lot of people doing very well for themselves these days, and it's these people that the 'have nots' are compared against. If there's a big gap, some claim these have nots are living in poverty.

BetterThanThou

I don't feel "disadvantaged" people really exist in Ireland. If someone's parents can't afford to put them through college, usually the government will cover the expenses. I also don't feel someone's parents effect weather they go to college and get a good job either. I know someone who is a millionaire(or close to it, definitely.), he worked for every single cent he has, and he's an extremely hard working man. But his kids would rather sit on their asses collecting the dole than follow in his footsteps. At the same time, I know people who have absolute wasters as parents, but they went to college and are following their dream career path. In fact, I'd say people who are considered "disadvantaged" are more likely to get a good education, after seeing how their parents turned out. Getting a college education in this country is all about the willingness to do it, it's rarely about the money. And this is one thing our government is great at.

Bubbaclaus

Using some peoples descriptions, I would be considered "disadvantaged".

But I'm not.

Davarus Walrus

Only having a basic SKY package.

ThisRegard

ThisRegard wrote: »

I wouldn't really agree with that, third level fees weren't 'abolished' until around 1995 and prior to that if you didn't get some sort of grant from the local VEC or whatever, or had plenty of money, it wasn't that easily accessible compared to now. When the fees were abolished the number of applicants, and those who eventually accepted a place, shot up.

Nearly every one I knew got a VEC grand and college tended to be Bolton st or Kevin st or the ITs, you had to get two higher level to get the grant, but it was still college and it wasn't all that unusual, your background was not seen as something you had to "battle" to over come. it was just part of life and you got on with it.

Duggy747

People having less than 50MB Broadband speed.


Peasants.

Turtyturd

I wish I came from a loan parent household instead of the full time ones I got.

endacl

Duggy747 wrote: »

People having less than 50MB Broadband speed.


Peasants.

Is the latter a description of the former, or are you giving two answers?

Everything is relative, and all metrics change to reflect the current standards. The standard of living in the West has consistently improved since the 70's and 80's, so comparative poverty has been measured by new standards. In the 70's it was common for households to be without a telephone, it would be hard to find a household where there is no phone or mobile now.

jimgoose

Well, the way I'd understand the term "disadvantaged" is referring to someone from a household/situation that is impoverished to the extent that the basics, i.e. food, heat, clothing, are difficult to meet, that may also be unstable due to parent(s)/guardian(s) that have problems with health, addiction, violence, being assholes, etc. and where basic education is neglected.

As far as I can see most people who bandy the term about with wild abandon these days are self-absorbed shytehawks looking for someone to congratulate them for being able to use a knife-and-fork.

Its not about poverty as such, it reflecting to a teenager that for example you are "disadvantaged" because you come from a background where your parent(s) don't have third level education.

jimgoose

mariaalice wrote: »

Its not about poverty as such, it reflecting to a teenager that for example you are "disadvantaged" because you come from a background where your parent(s) don't have third level education.

What in the actual fortified fúck?? By that rationale I myself am "Disadvantaged"! I want grants!! :pac::pac::pac:

jellyboy

Turtyturd wrote: »

I wish I came from a loan parent household instead of the full time ones I got.

See above op…

Richard Hillman

Being stuck in the middle where you are deemed too wealthy to avail of medical cards, council houses and Student grants. And not wealthy enough to avail of things such as Health Insurance, being able to purchase a house etc. It is the people that are stuck in the middle that have the least advantage in society.

It odd really. We're often quick to dismiss a disadvantage (coming from a more disadvantaged secondary school, for example), while at the same time we over emphasise the impact of advantages - they came from a wealthy family/privately educated etc., so everything is easy for them.

Some people have more hurdles to jump than others, and some have very few material hurdles but have a harder time because of unquantifiable factors.

wolfeye

The person that goes to work everyday,pays lots of tax and gets nothing.

Akrasia

You are disadvantaged if your parents are incapable of raising a healthy well adjusted child.

It's not just about money.

If you don't believe that 'disadvantage' exists, think about it like this:
Two scumbags (however you define that) get together and produce a child. On the day the baby is born, you can confidently predict that the child will probably end up on the dole/in prison.


As a society we have a choice, we can pretend that disadvantage does not exist and then act surprised when the next generation of 'scumbags' emerges, or we can develop social services to try and give extra assistance and support to kids from these families to give them the best possible chance to succeed in life.

seamus

Disadvantaged is a relative term, not an absolute one. Compared to someone in rural Africa, nobody in Ireland is disadvantaged. The word "advantage" in itself implies relativity, since in order to be at a disadvantage, someone else needs to be in a better position.

Thus "disadvantaged" refers to people who by circumstance are denied access or unable to get access to opportunities which are available to the majority.

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote: »

You are disadvantaged if your parents are incapable of raising a healthy well adjusted child.

It's not just about money.

If you don't believe that 'disadvantage' exists, think about it like this:
Two scumbags (however you define that) get together and produce a child. On the day the baby is born, you can confidently predict that the child will probably end up on the dole/in prison.


As a society we have a choice, we can pretend that disadvantage does not exist and then act surprised when the next generation of 'scumbags' emerges, or we can develop social services to try and give extra assistance and support to kids from these families to give them the best possible chance to succeed in life.

You are missing my point I am all for increased accesses to college

Look at it like this.

There was a girl lets say her name was Roisin, her parents are separated and she lives with her mother who works part time in retail, Roisin is very much loved by her mother and father and her large extended working class family, she goes to the local community school where she is bright and popular, she becomes head girl, she also grew up with very little in the way of money.

Now she is applying for college and while she is applying for college it will be reflected to her that she can get extra help because she if from a " disadvantage background" ...lone parent family, no parents with third level education, mother in receipt of family income supplement.

Turtyturd

mariaalice wrote: »

You are missing my point I am all for increased accesses to college

Look at it like this.

There was a girl lets say her name was Roisin, her parents are separated and she lives with her mother who works part time in retail, Roisin is very much loved by her mother and father and her large extended working class family, she goes to the local community school where she is bright and popular, she becomes head girl, she also grew up with very little in the way of money.

Now she is applying for college and while she is applying for college it will be reflected to her that she can get extra help because she if from a " disadvantage background" ...lone parent family, no parents with third level education, mother in receipt of family income supplement.

Is there some of that post missing?

My point is that some one like Roisn is not disadvantaged, while accesses and help to get to college is fantastic for the Roisns of Ireland... she and thousand like her are not disadvantaged and it perpetuates a belief that that there is something wrong with living in normal circumstances and that some how the thousands upon thousand of parents who work in retail, drive vans for a living and so on are bringing up their children in "disadvantage circumstances" They are not.

The second thing and it often come up on boards and its a bit of Dublin thing, is that in Dublin there are only two way of living, you either live in a "nice area" or you live in an area which is crawling heroin addicted scumbags again that's wildly untrue, and its grosly insulting to thousand of normal working people.

The sheer normality of going to college for everyone who want to is what it should be about, not this battling to overcome your "disadvantaged" background.

mfergus

The disadvantaged are the people who work for a living.
The "advantaged" are those who don't work but are given everything by the government and probably have more than the disadvantaged working person.

Seaneh

seamus wrote: »

Disadvantaged is a relative term, not an absolute one. Compared to someone in rural Africa, nobody in Ireland is disadvantaged. The word "advantage" in itself implies relativity, since in order to be at a disadvantage, someone else needs to be in a better position.

Thus "disadvantaged" refers to people who by circumstance are denied access or unable to get access to opportunities which are available to the majority.

This.

To say that a child growing up in Gardiner Street or Kevin Street has the same access to amenities, services, good schools, etc as a child form Clontarf or Dalkey is just silly, this is a disadvantage. It doesn't mean they are living in a rat ridden hovel, they just don't have the same access to things as others in society.

Turtyturd

mariaalice wrote: »

My point is that some one like Roisn is not disadvantaged, while accesses and help to get to college is fantastic for the Roisns of Ireland... she and thousand like her are not disadvantaged and it perpetuates a belief that that there is something wrong with living in normal circumstances and that some how the thousands upon thousand of parents who work in retail, drive vans for a living and so on are bringing up their children in "disadvantage circumstances" They are not.

The second thing and it often come up on boards and its a bit of Dublin thing, is that in Dublin there are only two way of living, you either live in a "nice area" or you live in an area which is crawling heroin addicted scumbags again that's wildly untrue, and its grosly insulting to thousand of normal working people.

The sheer normality of going to college for everyone who want to is what it should be about, not this battling to overcome your "disadvantaged" background.

But that's looking at disadvantage from a monetary point of view it incorporates much more than that. What if Roisin wants to go to college but her school is a VEC school which doesn't promote 3rd level education, that's being disadvantaged. Or if she gets the information about a course but is unaware of how to access grants, that's a form of being disadvantaged. Or if Roisins mother has the attitude that she has been in education long enough and after school should get a job to contribute to the house?

Seaneh

Seaneh wrote: »

This.

To say that a child growing up in Gardiner Street or Kevin Street has the same access to amenities, services, good schools, etc as a child form Clontarf or Dalkey is just silly, this is a disadvantage. It doesn't mean they are living in a rat ridden hovel, they just don't have the same access to things as others in society.

Again that's the either or myth, why pick those two areas, what about a family living in clonsilla, the mother works in retail and the father drives a van for marcorni foods, the children go to the local community school and are raised by parents who love them very much, so are they disadvantaged because the parents do not have third level education and money is tight in the house?

steddyeddy

Well the disadvantaged teenager in my experience is from a foster or care home and maybe subject to a history of abuse. That implies not only financial disadvantage but maybe emotional problems or mental health difficulties.

Turtyturd

Turtyturd wrote: »

But that's looking at disadvantage from a monetary point of view it incorporates much more than that. What if Roisin wants to go to college but her school is a VEC school which doesn't promote 3rd level education, that's being disadvantaged. Or if she gets the information about a course but is unaware of how to access grants, that's a form of being disadvantaged. Or if Roisins mother has the attitude that she has been in education long enough and after school should get a job to contribute to the house?

They are disadvantages of course they are, but all the money in the world will not change inner attitude to education, attitude and the value of education is a personal thing and tied to social class all the money in the word will not change attitude to education. There are no schools in the Ireland of today that do not promote third level education its almost forced on children.

Again attitude is a different thing.

Turtyturd

mariaalice wrote: »

Again that's the either or myth, why pick those two areas, what about a family living in clonsilla, the mother works in retail and the father drives a van for marcorni foods, the children go to the local community school and are raised by parents who love them very much, so are they disadvantaged because the parents do not have third level education and money is tight in the house?

Again that's looking at disadvantage from a narrow perspective.

Seaneh

mariaalice wrote: »

Again that's the either or myth, why pick those two areas, what about a family living in clonsilla, the mother works in retail and the father drives a van for marcorni foods, the children go to the local community school and are raised by parents who love them very much, so are they disadvantaged because the parents do not have third level education and money is tight in the house?

Nobody besides you and one other person said being disadvantaged has anything to do with parents working in the service inudtry or not having a 3rd level education.

Compared to people in Clonsilla or Artane, people in Gardiner Street are still disadvantaged for the same reasons as when compared to people from clontarf or dalkey for the same reasons.

I live in Artane, there are several excellent schools in the area, there is an amazing amount of sporting amenities, there are fantastic parks and green areas within walking distance, it's a much better place to live for lots of reasons than the city centre, but it's still very working class.

Seaneh

Seaneh wrote: »

Nobody besides you and one other person said being disadvantaged has anything to do with parents working in the service inudtry or not having a 3rd level education.

Compared to people in Clonsilla or Artane, people in Gardiner Street are still disadvantaged for the same reasons as when compared to people from clontarf or dalkey for the same reasons.

I live in Artane, there are several excellent schools in the area, there is an amazing amount of sporting amenities, there are fantastic parks and green areas within walking distance, it's a much better place to live for lots of reasons than the city centre, but it's still very working class.

You are making my point exactly I know Artane, will you please explain what exactly is wrong with it being Working class??? or any working class area???... why in gods name is that perceived as inferior???? I would live there.

If we really have got to the stage in Ireland where people feel being working class or living in a working class area make them "disadvantaged" then the world had gone mad.

Stojkovic

mfergus wrote: »

The disadvantaged are the people who work for a living.
The "advantaged" are those who don't work but are given everything by the government and probably have more than the disadvantaged working person.

Correct.
Disadvantaged is a polite word for lazy, thieving scroungers.

Seaneh

mariaalice wrote: »

You are making my point exactly I know Artane, will you please explain what exactly is wrong with it being Working class??? or any working class area???... why in gods name is that perceived as inferior???? I would live there.

Where did I say anything is wrong with being working class?

Turtyturd

mariaalice wrote: »

You are making my point exactly I know Artane, will you please explain what exactly is wrong with it being Working class??? or any working class area???... why in gods name is that perceived as inferior???? I would live there.

There is nothing wrong with it being working class. But working class isn't homogeneous. Artane is 2minutes from where I grew up but would be considered a 'posher' area despite still being working class.

Seaneh

Seaneh wrote: »

Where did I say anything is wrong with being working class?

Sorry if I miss understood you,....you listed all the facilities of Artane and then said but it is still a working class area as if that somehow made it less attractive as a place to live.

Seaneh

Turtyturd wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with it being working class. But working class isn't homogeneous. Artane is 2minutes from where I grew up but would be considered a 'posher' area despite still being working class.

He's trying to argue a point I didn't make in some vain attempt to discredit what I actually did say.
The mind boggles.

steddyeddy

mariaalice wrote: »

If we really have got to the stage in Ireland where people feel being working class or living in a working class area make them "disadvantaged" then the world had gone mad.

I agree with that.

Seaneh

mariaalice wrote: »

Sorry if I miss understood you,....you listed all the facilities of Artane and then said but it is still a working class area as if that somehow made it less attractive as a place to live.

I listed the facilities in Artane to explain how even though it wouldn't be considered a privileged area you could still say Gardiner Street would be disadvantaged when compared to it.
I mentioned the fact that it's a working class area because when I mentioned two areas some might perceive as middle or upper class you cried foul for me picking two "posh" areas to compare the inner city to. I pointed out that even compared to this working class area, the inner city is still disadvantaged. It's fairly easy to see what I was actually doing.

pundy

in this country, pretty much everyone is "disadvantaged"...
except for the lucky chancers in government and the 1% of the rich elite.

this country is a horrible begrudging kip full of fatties who have WAY too much confidence and bitterness at the same time, so it may very well seem like there's a social divide, but it's only one which is in the minds of these idiots.

Seaneh

pundy wrote: »

in this country, pretty much everyone is "disadvantaged"...
except for the lucky chancers in government and the 1% of the rich elite.

this country is a horrible begrudging kip full of fatties who have WAY too much confidence and bitterness at the same time, so it may very well seem like there's a social divide, but it's only one which is in the minds of these idiots.

I'd recommend Dublin port as a nice, convenient departure point if you're so displeased with the locals.

I mentioned having parents who do not have third level education, because it is one of the criteria that is used for the HEAR (higher education access rote )so the people in the department of Education or social protection? use that as a criteria for measuring "disadvantage" not the only one mind you.

K-9

Seaneh wrote: »

I listed the facilities in Artane to explain how even though it wouldn't be considered a privileged area you could still say Gardiner Street would be disadvantaged when compared to it.
I mentioned the fact that it's a working class area because when I mentioned two areas some might perceive as middle or upper class you cried foul for me picking two "posh" areas to compare the inner city to. I pointed out that even compared to this working class area, the inner city is still disadvantaged. It's fairly easy to see what I was actually doing.

Somewhere like Gardiner Street and Summerhill area is obviously disadvantaged, Kilbarrack, Southill in Limerick, the Falls/Shankill in Belfast, I'd have thought this was extremely obvious in this day and age.

Because of the culture, low levels of education and poverty in these areas people are at a big disadvantage, and these types of areas have seen little improvement from 30 years ago.

I'd say "struggling class" is a better term for what I'd consider the level above that. People finding it extremely difficult in the recession to make ends meet. Areas or the traditional classes doesn't really matter with this class, they are all over Ireland and income isn't that much of a determining factor. One family might have a perceived high income and good standard of living to an outsider but are very much "fur coat, no knickers"!

Another family might have a modest enough income and from a traditional working class area but managing fine.

K-9

mariaalice wrote: »

I mentioned having parents who do not have third level education, because it is one of the criteria that is used for the HEAR (higher education access rote )so the people in the department of Education or social protection? use that as a criteria for measuring "disadvantage" not the only one mind you.

Well children whose parents went to higher level are a good bit more likely to go on to third level themselves. It's not one I'd put huge store in myself as I think it is much easier to access higher level than 20/30 years ago. Plus society has changed so much it is nearly the ones who don't go that stick out!

The disadvantaged areas I mentioned before still have low rates of participation despite free fees and targeted initiatives. It's just a very difficult thing to break down. Free fees helped a small part but they largely helped traditional middle classes that struggled to pay education fees.

The way registration fees are going "free fees" are getting a moot point and in a few years will be irrelevant.

ratmouse

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

Only having a basic SKY package.

Only have the older Sky box

Back to my original point.....you often see posts form people here that start a post something like I came form a disadvantage background and went to college or managed to get a good job or buy a house or whatever, now as the story goes on they have not come from heroin addicted abusive parents... it just the parent(s) did not have much money and lived in ordinary circumstances, yet they have internalised a belief that they come from a disadvantaged back ground??

pundy

Seaneh wrote: »

I'd recommend Dublin port as a nice, convenient departure point if you're so displeased with the locals.

Thankfully i only have to deal with you people for short bursts at a time.

and no, i think i'd be flying and not going to some Irish port. gross

Seaneh

pundy wrote: »

Thankfully i only have to deal with you people for short bursts at a time.

and no, i think i'd be flying and not going to some Irish port. gross

Well at least you know you have options when it comes to leaving.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Turtyturd

mariaalice wrote: »

Back to my original point.....you often see posts form people here that start a post something like I came form a disadvantage background and went to college or managed to get a good job or buy a house or whatever, now as the story goes on they have not come from heroin addicted abusive parents... it just the parent(s) did not have much money and lived in ordinary circumstances, yet they have internalised a belief that they come from a disadvantaged back ground??

You're taking the p*ss now, yeah?

pundy

Seaneh wrote: »

Well at least you know you have options when it comes to leaving.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

i wont Seaneh.
you're a funny little fella, sure it's no wonder so many people are staying in the country with charmers like you around.

good day to you.