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The Anti-Austerity Crowd

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Comments

  • #362
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Boards.ie is a place for hearing all points of view, no one's freedom of speech should be stifled just because we don't agree with what they say.


  • #363
    Radiosonde
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Radiosonde


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Bono is a target because he's perceived as a preachy git who frequently lectures governments on what they ought to do with public money, even though he doesn't feel like contributing himself. Its the hypocrisy, not his wealth, that people dislike.


  • #364
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #365
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #366
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Of course not, because it isn't. It's just more of the pathetic politics of envy. It's not his job to pay for the starving in Africa. He is a cut WAY above most rock stars who spend their lives smoking and injecting their earnings. At least he uses his fame for the benefit of humanity.


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  • #367
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #368
    Radiosonde
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Radiosonde


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    How fair those criticisms are is besides the point (though I agree with much of them myself); U2's tax arrangements attract such negative press not simply because *gasp* they make a lot of money, but because of Bono's high profile political campaigning and a presumed disconnect between the two.


  • #369
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    Radiosonde wrote: »
    How fair those criticisms are is besides the point (though I agree with much of them myself); U2's tax arrangements attract such negative press not simply because *gasp* they make a lot of money, but because of Bono's high profile political campaigning and a presumed disconnect between the two.

    I don't like U2 music. I am no fan of Bono, other feeling that at least he tries to do some good.

    His tax arrangements are very unlikely to be accurately described in any newspaper and the media coverage is almost completely spurious and speculative. I seriously doubt if he does anything illegal. So if he manages his taxes in such a way as to pay as little as he needs to ... that's fine by me. EVERYone else in the country does the same. Everyone with a mortgage makes sure they get their allowances. Everyone with children makes sure they get their allowances ... etc. etc.


  • #370
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #371
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    Piliger wrote: »
    I don't like U2 music. I am no fan of Bono, other feeling that at least he tries to do some good.

    His tax arrangements are very unlikely to be accurately described in any newspaper and the media coverage is almost completely spurious and speculative. I seriously doubt if he does anything illegal. So if he manages his taxes in such a way as to pay as little as he needs to ... that's fine by me. EVERYone else in the country does the same. Everyone with a mortgage makes sure they get their allowances. Everyone with children makes sure they get their allowances ... etc. etc.

    When people make those comparisons they are really not comparing like with like. And allowances are not tax avoidance.

    To defend bono though, he is not U2. I suppose he pays personal taxes in Ireland.


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  • #372
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Well the theoretical solution is a simple global tax. A tax on capital flows could also tax the rich.


  • #373
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #374
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Indeed I do. Fantastic book by the way. Long read though.

    However I said "theoretical". And therefore unlikely.


  • #375
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #376
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Now you're directly lying about what I am posting again, when it has nothing to do with MMT - just like a mod had to tell you over on Political Theory:
    Scofflaw wrote:
    I don't think Kyuss dragged MMT into this - I think he was fairly careful not to. So Permabear is out of line here, and this little spat is now over.

    So what you're proving here, is you're trying to smear me, and bring mod action against me.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    You're just whining about something you disagree with Permabear, and putting forward a (tbh kind of malicious) smear against me, by lying that what I am posting is MMT - to try and make it look like soapboxing - when it is a direct report from the Bank of England, backing my views:
    http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/quarterlybulletin/2014/qb14q1prereleasemoneycreation.pdf

    Whether you like it or not, the Bank of England report, and the topic of money creation, has every relevance to a thread on austerity (and has nothing to do with MMT...) - if you want debate restricted to only what you want to hear, I'm sure you can go to the corner on Boards (if it still exists) where you can debate with other Libertarian chums.

    You fill threads with Libertarian/NeoLiberal garbage wherever you post PermaBear - last one was taking over the JobBridge thread for a week or so - so you're just brimming with hypocrisy there.


  • #377
    Merrion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,436 ✭✭✭Merrion


    What is the counter argument then - that austerity is the only way and there is nothing to be done? If so can anyone provide a worked example of how we shrink our way to a healthier economy?


  • #378
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #379
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #380
    kikidelvin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 109 ✭✭kikidelvin


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    Ok then. Instead of insults, why don't you offer your solution to the situation.

    Austerity was needed.

    Shrinking the government down to a size you might understand... If a household is taking in €40k a year and spending €60k a year what does it need to start doing? Either loan money to fund the deficit year on year (crippling future generations with mass amounts of debt) or cut back on spending and find a way to increase income (aka austerity).

    Has the government really cut back on spending or have they only made it appear so?


  • #381
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,706 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    The people that protest against austerity. How would they expect Ireland to finance a country crippling government deficit?


    I don't get it. Could somebody explain? I've never heard of an alternative solution (that actually makes sense and would work better).

    I find this hilarious, that was the OP. Here in After Hours the home of lightheartedness and equivalent to the Joe Duffy or Adrian Kennedy phone show we have threads started that everyone can contribute to, then after a few pages, it goes from everyone knowing whats going on to Kyuss, Permabear and a few others discussing monetary theory etc and it going so far over the heads of most I reckon the thread gets deserted bar a few repeat posters, gotta say I find it pretty hilarious!


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  • #382
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Yea notice, that this doesn't seem to stop him coming in to smear people, and (not even argue with them) just whine that they discuss something he doesn't like hearing about, smearing me by lying about what I have been talking about (something a mod had to call him out on, on another forum), to try and create a consensus among users/mods that it is soapboxing, rather than presenting a fact that even the Bank of England supports - something (soapboxing) that is infractionable, and if that consensus developed, I would notch-up infractions and get banned for if I didn't call it out (which I would judge is the aim here).

    His method of debate when he comes across something he doesn't like, yet he knows he has no argument against, is to completely discard with actual arguments, and turn into the biggest condescending/snobbish/sneering such-and-such that he can, to try and browbeat/troll you out of discussing something - if you watch debates with him closely, he rarely ever actually argues with people, just puts on a superficial pretense of it to push his own Libertarian/NeoLiberal economic views.


  • #383
    Phoebas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,373 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    ffs kyuss. It seems that whenever you appear on most any thread on most any topic it can be predicted that within a few pages you'll either have it turned into a discussion on your favourite economic theory (how many times have we seen that Bank of England link?) or you'll be throwing around accusations that people are lying to smear you.

    You need to spend more time afk.


  • #384
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Phoebas wrote: »
    ffs kyuss. It seems that whenever you appear on most any thread on most any topic it can be predicted that within a few pages you'll either have it turned into a discussion on your favourite economic theory (how many times have we seen that Bank of England link?) or you'll be throwing around accusations that people are lying to smear you.

    You need to spend more time afk.
    Spend less time whining about facts (not theories) you don't like hearing - if you have a problem with it, prove it wrong - it's perfectly relevant to a thread on austerity, where banks are a big part of the discussion.

    There's zero difference between me presenting my views, and you and others presenting your own free-market theory/myths on Boards - something which comes up on every single thread about economics - it's hypocritical whining, to try and browbeat views you disagree with out of discussion, rather than debate anything.


  • #385
    The_Captain
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭The_Captain


    Merrion wrote: »
    What is the counter argument then - that austerity is the only way and there is nothing to be done? If so can anyone provide a worked example of how we shrink our way to a healthier economy?

    The counter argument is and always has been "That will make everyone poor" quietly ignoring that there's currently huge unemployment, large-scale emigration and the lower middle classes are massively struggling with debt.

    There seems to be a belief in this country that by never questioning or criticising the government or institutions, you're somehow more honourable or patriotic that the rabble rousers just looking to improve their own lot in life.


  • #386
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Piliger wrote: »
    That is an 'attempt' at reducing the hysteria to a rational thumbnail. But unfortunately too many loud mouthed practitioners of envy don't see it like that. They lump everyone earning more than they do into some kind of appalling stereotype.

    Well all I can say is that's not my experience of "the anti austerity crowd". You do get some who despise wealth in general, but most are simply bitter that people who played a direct role in causing mass hardship to the general population are allowed to continue riding the aforementioned gravy train.
    And although I always found Cowen repulsive and blame him for many horrific decisions, he is entitled to earn a living as much as anyone else. And if Topaz think he brings value to them then so be it. This nasty resentment thing is beyond me and thankfully most people in Ireland.

    Do you honestly think he was given that role for any reason other than cronyism? He and a former AIB exec appointed to it by Denis O'Brien, who as evidenced most recently by the water meters / Siemens debacle, is yet another well connected member of the political elite who gets special treatment. This is the kind of sh!te most anti austerity folk take issue with, not the people who are where they are because they've earned it.


  • #387
    El Guapo!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,450 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    Mod: Permabear and KyussBishop, drop all the petty crap now. Everyone has had enough of your little back and forth. Get back on topic.


  • #388
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    That's a shame, I for one was finding it highly entertaining ;)
    Can we make a separate thread for that debate?


  • #389
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,351 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Well all I can say is that's not my experience of "the anti austerity crowd". You do get some who despise wealth in general, but most are simply bitter that people who played a direct role in causing mass hardship to the general population are allowed to continue riding the aforementioned gravy train..
    Except they want to target anybody on a high wage whether or not they were in anyway involved in bank, building or investment. They are effectively acting in a blind rage.
    Then you get to the point who do you punish for their involvement? The IT guy that was told to change the IT system to allow 110% mortgages. The banking consultant that said it was a bad idea and was overruled. The guys who went to the financial regulator and were told it was OK to do something?
    The end of the day there isn't a coherent movement other than tax the rich. The rich appear to be anybody earning double the median wage. Which isn't rich

    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Do you honestly think he was given that role for any reason other than cronyism? He and a former AIB exec appointed to it by Denis O'Brien, who as evidenced most recently by the water meters / Siemens debacle, is yet another well connected member of the political elite who gets special treatment. This is the kind of sh!te most anti austerity folk take issue with, not the people who are where they are because they've earned it.

    The process is quite transparent and you can look up how the processed worked. If you have information explaining how this was corrupted please enlighten us. It was the best deal when all things were considered is how the process is meant to work with different aspects rated and then the summed up.
    If O'Brien had been excluded the process would have been corrupt. You also have to realise he probably had absolutely nothing to do with the tendering process himself.


  • #390
    kuntboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 290 ✭✭kuntboy


    We can simply borrow our way to prosperity, as we are entitled.

    But first we need to hire vast armies of "consultants" and middle managers to work into-the-night twiddling their thumbs and spouting crucially important buzzwords and waffling jargon in never-ending project-critical team meetings. They should all get lavish pensions, golden handshakes, and gilt-edged perks and bonuses in addition to their luxury junkets abroad, with no expense spared, at our expense, of course.

    Also every person in the country is *ENTITLED* to free money and free everything for ever, as they have PAID their taxes.


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  • #391
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    (something a mod had to call him out on, on another forum), to try and create a consensus among users/mods that it is soapboxing, rather than presenting a fact that even the Bank of England supports - something (soapboxing) that is infractionable, and if that consensus developed, I would notch-up infractions and get banned for if I didn't call it out (which I would judge is the aim here).
    .


    Yet, one wonders why then you are permanently banned form the politics forum (apart from the Political Theory forum) because of your perpetual and constant musings about MMT or whatever baked economic theory you are peddling at that moment.


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