Should religious induction of children be banned?

Birroc · 19-05-2014 10:10AM

padd b1975 wrote: »

It's no one's business apart from the parents.

So simplistic eh. Don't be so naïve.

pauldla · 19-05-2014 10:10AM

RobertKK wrote: »

In terms of the church investigation. We should not equate a church investigation with a civil authorities investigation whom I don't think would be broadcasting all they know either until it reached a court.

So it was an oath of don't-tell-some-people secrecy? :mad:

As I said, craven nonsense.

P_1 · 19-05-2014 10:12AM

RobertKK wrote: »

The highlighted bit - the letter was about church investigations involving the confessional.

Does the state do excommunications?

They do, it's called deportation. Only happened to the one man in the history of the state mind.

Spring Onion · 19-05-2014 10:13AM

Birroc wrote: »

Address the point and don't be a coward.

Is that vile man Sean Brady still leader of your organisation?

Every time I think of that man, Cardinal Sean Brady and what he did to those victims of Brendan Smyth, my blood boils. 2 sick human beings.

Frank Lee Midere · 19-05-2014 10:18AM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I don't want segregation.

How many times must this be repeated? It is the current schools system that is the source of segregation. I do have a problem with the current schools system. If parents want to send their children to a Catholic school, let the Church fund that. The State should not prop up the Church by funding its schools.

The use of the term segregation here is emotive. In the US South segregation was forced on people, in religious schooling it is chosen. Although there should be more secular schools a more pluralistic view would be all faiths catered too in the public system.

tfitzgerald · 19-05-2014 10:20AM

Lovely another "knock the Catholic Church thread". People here are religious in there hatred for the church and are not happy unless they are bashing it. Well ye live in a majority catholic country. If ye don't like religion why not move might I suggest Saudi Arabia

Spring Onion · 19-05-2014 10:35AM

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Lovely another "knock the Catholic Church thread". People here are religious in there hatred for the church and are not happy unless they are bashing it. Well ye live in a majority catholic country. If ye don't like religion why not move might I suggest Saudi Arabia

Wow, fantastic response to the question.
The question for you is should we sit back and allow Irish children to be forced via the education system into the majority religion which is run from Rome.

19-05-2014 10:47AM

Spring Onion wrote: »

Wow, fantastic response to the question.
The question for you is should we sit back and allow Irish children to be forced via the education system into the majority religion which is run from Rome.

Yes because it's what most parents want and for those who don't at least it's giving the child the catholic teachings that they don't get at home.

kylith · 19-05-2014 10:49AM

RobertKK wrote: »

The highlighted bit - the letter was about church investigations involving the confessional.

Does the state do excommunications?

No it wasn't. Let me highlight the next bit of that sentence for you
"They also call for the victim to take an oath of secrecy at the time of making a complaint to Church officials"

So you'd go to your bishop and make a complaint because the priest had been abusing you/your child and they would say "Sure, that's terrible. Don't worry, we'll take care of it by moving him to another parish. Just sign this oath of secrecy here".

tfitzgerald · 19-05-2014 10:51AM

Spring Onion wrote: »

Wow, fantastic response to the question.
The question for you is should we sit back and allow Irish children to be forced via the education system into the majority religion which is run from Rome.

If you can't figure out my answer to the question from my post. Let me make my self clear yes in a catholic country we should teach the religion run by Rome in our schools. It's only a few small begrudgers that don't want this. Well these people know where the airports are. I won't miss them

kylith · 19-05-2014 10:55AM

Emersyn Fierce Year wrote: »

Yes because it's what most parents want and for those who don't at least it's giving the child the catholic teachings that they don't get at home.

So it's ok to indoctrinate a child into a religion against their parents' will?

shruikan2553 · 19-05-2014 10:55AM

tfitzgerald wrote: »

If you can't figure out my answer to the question from my post. Let me make my self clear yes in a catholic country we should teach the religion run by Rome in our schools. It's only a few small begrudgers that don't want this. Well these people know where the airports are. I won't miss them

That's not a very Christian attitude.

Birroc · 19-05-2014 10:56AM

tfitzgerald wrote: »

If you can't figure out my answer to the question from my post. Let me make my self clear yes in a catholic country we should teach the religion run by Rome in our schools. It's only a few small begrudgers that don't want this. Well these people know where the airports are. I won't miss them

I very much doubt it will be a "Catholic" country in 20-30 years time. The children today, for various reasons, will not be as blinkered/brainwashed/afraid as their parents. And if I can help the shift towards secularisation, so much the better.

Spring Onion · 19-05-2014 10:58AM

Emersyn Fierce Year wrote: »

Yes because it's what most parents want and for those who don't at least it's giving the child the catholic teachings that they don't get at home.

they don't get at home!? Jesus wept

Spring Onion · 19-05-2014 10:59AM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

That's not a very Christian attitude.

Fitzgerald would have you banished for questioning the Roman church...no wonder child abuse went unchecked for so many decades.

Dyr · 19-05-2014 11:01AM

tfitzgerald wrote: »

. If ye don't like religion why not move might I suggest Saudi Arabia

not sure if taking the piss or just fcuking thick

Azwaldo55 · 19-05-2014 11:04AM

How do you ban it? Haven't we got our hands full as it is with joblessness, poverty, emigration, violent crime etc etc.?

Akrasia · 19-05-2014 11:08AM

padd b1975 wrote: »

It's no one's business apart from the parents.

Society has a duty to protect children from damaging parental practises.

There is a line where the parents right to raise their child according to their own values conflicts with the child's rights. It's a fuzzy line and there are multiple gray areas.

The website for the particular preschool I was talking about places special emphasis on the 'ethos of the school' and specifically on the 'Discipline' element

I haven't been to this school but I have talked to some people from this church, and their attitude is that Irish people do not properly discipline their children and physical punishment is necessary to raise a well behaved child.

In ireland, corporal punishment is against the law in schools. Whatever about parents being allowed to slap their own children, it would be completely illegal and unacceptable according to the standards in our society, for a preschool to physically discipline a child.

Also, this is a religious belief that states a woman's role is in the home and she is to be submissive to her husband. How sad is it that young girls are going into a pre-school at the age of 3 or 4 where she will be told her goal in life is to be a submissive wife.

Dyr · 19-05-2014 11:08AM

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

How do you ban it? Haven't we got our hands full as it is with joblessness, poverty, emigration, violent crime etc etc.?

Stick a price on the clergys heads, worked well enough before

padd b1975 · 19-05-2014 11:24AM

Birroc wrote: »

So simplistic eh. Don't be so naïve.

Have you any other parenting advice?

I'm sure parents the world over are waiting patiently for more nuggets from a wise sage such as youself.....

I Heart Internet · 19-05-2014 11:35AM

Short answer no.

Long answer no with a but.

Obviously freedom of religion is enshrined in the Constitution. Great.

We are talking about children specifically here, see OP's question.

Parents DO (and should) have the right to raise, teach and induct their children in the philosophy or religion of their choosing. It is the right (and duty) of all parents to do this.

The only cases where induction of a child into a philosophy by parents is not appropriate is where the philosophy or religion in question is grossly abhorent to society and a potential danger to the children or society at large.

padd b1975 · 19-05-2014 11:37AM

kylith wrote: »

So it's ok to indoctrinate a child into a religion against their parents' will?

If the parents feel it will benefit THEIR CHILD, then yes.

Most children would prefer to stay home from school and play outside with their friends but society and the encouragement of their parents dictate that they must attend school up to a certain age.

Of course this is subjective, as some parents choose to go down the home schooling route.

Bottom line, at such a young age, it's the parents decision alone.

padd b1975 · 19-05-2014 11:39AM

@ Kylith.

Apologies, misread your post.

I read it as 'being indoctrinated against the child's wishes '.

AdolfHipster · 19-05-2014 11:41AM

The Leader is good, the Leader is great, we surrender our will, as of this date.

RobertKK · 19-05-2014 12:03PM

Birroc wrote: »

Address the point and don't be a coward.

Is that vile man Sean Brady still leader of your organisation?

We can call people names but it doesn't add to the argument, no Pope Francis is the leader of the Catholic church which is open to anyone, I do now own it for it to be called 'your organisation'.

Fr Sean Brady at that time didn't stop anyone going to the the authorities, people choose to be ignorant and put secrecy with a church investigation as being telling people not to go to the authorities.
It is putting 2 and 2 together and not knowing how to count.

RobertKK · 19-05-2014 12:07PM

kylith wrote: »

No it wasn't. Let me highlight the next bit of that sentence for you
"They also call for the victim to take an oath of secrecy at the time of making a complaint to Church officials"

So you'd go to your bishop and make a complaint because the priest had been abusing you/your child and they would say "Sure, that's terrible. Don't worry, we'll take care of it by moving him to another parish. Just sign this oath of secrecy here".

That was for church investigations - an oath of secrecy to church officials while the church investigates, do you read what you post?

Yes we know the church investigated and in most cases didn't deal with them properly - certain bishops/dioceses in particular.

RobertKK · 19-05-2014 12:09PM

pauldla wrote: »

So it was an oath of don't-tell-some-people secrecy? :mad:

As I said, craven nonsense.

Yeah it is always a good idea to have the accused know who made the complaint within an organisation, it worked very well in our police force...

RobertKK · 19-05-2014 12:13PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Huh? Come again there? Who is the dedicated advocate of segregating children according to the religious beliefs of their parents here?

The current system IS segregation. Yes, religious schools may take children of other religions and none, but I suspect that this is more to do with preventing the European Courts ordering the abolition of the status quo in the Irish Education System than goodwill! They do it because they HAVE to.

I am not advocating anything except the right for anyone to set up a school whether one by a faith group or non faith, but all open for all, all have to teach the national curriculum.

You say "Yes, religious schools may take children of other religions and none" and "current system IS segregation".

You want your bread buttered on both sides.

Conmaicne Mara · 19-05-2014 12:16PM

Banning things should be banned. Should be perfectly allowable to murder barstool lawyers.

PopePalpatine · 19-05-2014 12:19PM

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Lovely another "knock the Catholic Church thread". People here are religious in there hatred for the church and are not happy unless they are bashing it. Well ye live in a majority catholic country. If ye don't like religion why not move might I suggest Saudi Arabia

Are you totally unaware of the Saudi theocracy? It is a country where apostasy = death penalty! It is a country which considers anyone who doesn't believe in God/Yahweh/Allah a terrorist!

Should religious induction of children be banned?

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