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The Anti-Austerity Crowd

12357…14

Comments

  • #122
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Cazzoenorme wrote: »
    I never justified "deliberately creating a bubble that exploits society". I believe you are strawmanning me.
    You're last post (before this one) is replying to me as if I had only talked about speculating, when I explicitly said I was talking about creating asset bubbles for the purpose of speculating.

    If we can both agree that's bad though, then we can agree that this new starting property bubble (for example), is bad as well - as that's pretty much the whole purpose of artificial property bubbles.


  • #123
    littleblackDRS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 221 ✭✭littleblackDRS


    I love reading these threads, you see the Dunning-Kruger effect out in full force :rolleyes:


  • #124
    Cazzoenorme
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 137 ✭✭Cazzoenorme


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    You're last post (before this one) is replying to me as if I had only talked about speculating, when I explicitly said I was talking about creating asset bubbles for the purpose of speculating.

    If we can both agree that's bad though, then we can agree that this new starting property bubble (for example), is bad as well - as that's pretty much the whole purpose of artificial property bubbles.

    Who do you believe created asset bubbles deliberately for the purpose of speculating. I believe it is illegal in many jurisdictions to manipulate the market for the purpose of profiting. It breaches integrity of capital market laws.


  • #125
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    The people that protest against austerity. How would they expect Ireland to finance a country crippling government deficit?


    I don't get it. Could somebody explain? I've never heard of an alternative solution (that actually makes sense and would work better).

    TAX THE RICH!!!!

    Rabble rabble rabble


  • #126
    L'Enfer du Nord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 587 ✭✭✭L'Enfer du Nord


    Cazzoenorme wrote: »
    No, I'm advocating people being allowed to invest in assets if they want. If some people want to pay stupid amounts for property or some other asset then that should simply be there problem.

    Indeed, but recent experience shows it is everyone's problem because they spend borrowed money which ultimately the state/taxpayer ends up guaranteeing. Many of these self same people resist regulation to control credit expansion and asset bubbles. On the small scale there are quite a few strategic defaulters not paying their mortgages again the costs of this will be shared by everyone.

    The govt. is at the same crap guaranteeing 95% mortgages for certain types of property! now you are liable to have a load of Ftbers fighting over new homes while not being able to buy possibly cheaper 2nd hand ones. Simple example an Ftbers with 30 grand saved could borrow 285,000 for a new home but only 120,000 for a second hand one. More Effing interference so the average young couple have to heavily indebt themselves to benefit developers.


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  • #127
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,182 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    bumper234 wrote: »
    TAX THE RICH!!!!

    Rabble rabble rabble


    Excellent contribution.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • #128
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Excellent contribution.

    Thank you

    I am most pleased that you value my input


    would you like to subscribe to my most informative newsletter?


  • #129
    BBJBIG
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 277 ✭✭BBJBIG


    Well ... unless Oireland LOSES A LOT (MOST) of the Banking Debt, we are going to have a problem for a very long time.

    This unaffordable Debt is what's driving Austerity, Unemployment, Emigration, extra Taxation and Charges, Cut Backs etc etc etc

    And, making our Country unviable and actually unsustainable !!! !!! !!!

    ALL EFFORTS should be concentrated on removing this UNJUST DEBT from the Backs of d'Oirish people.


  • #130
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,182 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Thank you

    I am most pleased that you value my input


    would you like to subscribe to my most informative newsletter?

    Is it a NEWSletter or just a piece of paper that repeats the same "no alternative to austerity" mantra over and over again?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • #131
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    littleblackDRS wrote: »
    I love reading these threads, you see the Dunning-Kruger effect out in full force :rolleyes:
    In what way are you seeing that?


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  • #132
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Is it a NEWSletter or just a piece of paper that repeats the same "no alternative to austerity" mantra over and over again?

    You get free money with every issue.


  • #133
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,287 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    BBJBIG wrote: »
    Well ... unless Oireland LOSES A LOT (MOST) of the Banking Debt, we are going to have a problem for a very long time.

    This unaffordable Debt is what's driving Austerity, Unemployment, Emigration, extra Taxation and Charges, Cut Backs etc etc etc

    And, making our Country unviable and actually unsustainable !!! !!! !!!

    ALL EFFORTS should be concentrated on removing this UNJUST DEBT from the Backs of d'Oirish people.

    Nice to see a Sinn Fein election candidate adding their opinion to the discussion.


  • #134
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Is it a NEWSletter or just a piece of paper that repeats the same "no alternative to austerity" mantra over and over again?

    Maybe you could tell me your detailed alternative to austerity?


  • #135
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Cazzoenorme wrote: »
    Who do you believe created asset bubbles deliberately for the purpose of speculating. I believe it is illegal in many jurisdictions to manipulate the market for the purpose of profiting. It breaches integrity of capital market laws.
    So you're denying it happens then?


  • #136
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,182 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Maybe you could tell me your detailed alternative to austerity?

    Maybe if you were interested you could read this and the other austerity thread instead of waiting to be spoon fed. You must work in the PS;)

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • #137
    Cazzoenorme
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 137 ✭✭Cazzoenorme


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    So you're denying it happens then?

    No I'm not denying it happens, I'm curious what examples you have in mind though.


  • #138
    BBJBIG
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 277 ✭✭BBJBIG


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Maybe you could tell me your detailed alternative to austerity?

    It's a little long and a small bit dated - but, if people have the time - it might be worth watching :-
    (... and, to read people's comments at the bottom ...)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woPc5puM3aI
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7bAfjKy5Z4

    Oireland HAS to lose MOST of the Banking part of the Debt. Simple as.


  • #139
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    BBJBIG wrote: »
    It's a little long and a small bit dated - but, if people have the time - it might be worth watching :-

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woPc5puM3aI
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7bAfjKy5Z4

    Oireland HAS to lose MOST of the Banking part of the Debt. Simple as.
    I don't agree with Max, but that Kilkenomics thing with Bill Black from a while back, was very good.


  • #140
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Predictably as well, we have the disingenuous "well what are the alternatives? :confused:" question popping up again (after alternatives have been posted in both threads, including some of my own) - where the poster doesn't actually give a toss about any alternatives put forward, other than to throw mewling dismissals at them.


  • #141
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Maybe if you were interested you could read this and the other austerity thread instead of waiting to be spoon fed. You must work in the PS;)

    I am and have read these threads, i am asking for YOUR alternative to austerity, what would YOU do or change to get the country out of debt and people back working?


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  • #142
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    bumper234 wrote: »
    I am and have read these threads, i am asking for YOUR alternative to austerity, what would YOU do or change to get the country out of debt and people back working?
    Oh so 'just any' alternative to austerity won't work, it has to be personalized mmm?

    Another poster trying to send someone off on a wild goose chase, just for rhetorical effect.


  • #143
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    Oh so 'just any' alternative to austerity won't work, it has to be personalized mmm?

    Another poster trying to send someone off on a wild goose chase, just for rhetorical effect.

    Was i asking for your opinion or do you just jump into conversations when it suits you to voice your opinion? I asked HIM for HIS alternative to austerity, when i want YOUR alternatives then i will ask YOU.


  • #144
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Was i asking for your opinion or do you just jump into conversations when it suits you to voice your opinion? I asked HIM for HIS alternative to austerity, when i want YOUR alternatives then i will ask YOU.
    This is a discussion thread, not a PM conversation - you have to justify why other perfectly good alternatives, are not 'valid', and why he personally has to 'make-up/present his own'.

    What it is, is a really weak attempt to try and portray him as hypocritical, when you are being disingenuous, by ignoring the perfectly good alternatives already presented.


  • #145
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    This is a discussion thread, not a PM conversation - you have to justify why other perfectly good alternatives, are not 'valid', and why he personally has to 'make-up/present his own'.

    What it is, is a really weak attempt to try and portray him as hypocritical, when you are being disingenuous, by ignoring the perfectly good alternatives already presented.

    But there hasn't been "good alternatives presented" other than the usual tax the rich mantra that is always hollered from the rooftops. The fact that the country is running at a loss and we need to stop spending more money than we are taking in seems to be lost on some posters. This is what austerity is, stop spending more than you're earning. Want to guess what the biggest cost to the government is?

    Want to guess how much the "anti austerity people" think that should be cut? I have already said i agree with raising tax by 2% 5% 10% but to make it fair lets cut dole and pensions by the exact same % .


  • #146
    L'Enfer du Nord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 587 ✭✭✭L'Enfer du Nord


    bumper234 wrote: »
    But there hasn't been "good alternatives presented" other than the usual tax the rich mantra that is always hollered from the rooftops.

    I'm not sure if it's been put forward in this tread but isn't one of the proposed alternatives some kind of high stakes poker game with the Bond holders, ECB, EU commission, Angela Merkel etc. It would be great if this came off and we had so of the debt written off. However we don't seem to have a very strong hand.


  • #147
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,287 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    L'Enfer du Nord wrote: »
    I'm not sure if it's been put forward in this tread but isn't one of the proposed alternatives some kind of high stakes poker game with the Bond holders, ECB, EU commission, Angela Merkel etc. It would be great if this came off and we had so of the debt written off. However we don't seem to have a very strong hand.

    We don't have anything to hold over them at this stage and it's arguable as to whether we ever did.

    They could literally have abandoned us to fend for ourselves if we didn't play ball and we'd be completely screwed then.


  • #148
    granturismo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,001 ✭✭✭granturismo


    L'Enfer du Nord wrote: »
    I'm not sure if it's been put forward in this tread but isn't one of the proposed alternatives some kind of high stakes poker game with the Bond holders, ECB, EU commission, Angela Merkel etc. It would be great if this came off and we had so of the debt written off. However we don't seem to have a very strong hand.

    What does this mean?


  • #149
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Cazzoenorme wrote: »
    The cash that customers deposit. The money is just moved around. No new money is actually created.

    Ok, so you believe there's a fixed amount of money in the world which simply gets moved, fair enough.
    1: Where do you think all that money came from in the first place? It has to have been created at some point. Who decided how much to create and how to start distributing it?
    2: Do you believe this is in any way a sensible method of monetary circulation, given that the amount of people in the world, the amount of stuff we can produce, and the amount of stuff people want are all variables which fluctuate wildly over time?

    (The truth is that you're wrong about money simply being moved around, but for the sake of argument I'm just wondering whether you think that would be a good way of doing things)


  • #150
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,287 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    granturismo wrote: »
    What does this mean?

    Basically burn the bondholders and look for a debt writedown as far as i can tell.

    A risky proposition when they can just simply leave you to fend for yourself in response and then you have to inevitably go crawling back to them to accept worse conditions on your bailout than they originally offered.


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  • #151
    Cazzoenorme
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 137 ✭✭Cazzoenorme


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Ok, so you believe there's a fixed amount of money in the world which simply gets moved, fair enough.
    1: Where do you think all that money came from in the first place? It has to have been created at some point. Who decided how much to create and how to start distributing it?
    2: Do you believe this is in any way a sensible method of monetary circulation, given that the amount of people in the world, the amount of stuff we can produce, and the amount of stuff people want are all variables which fluctuate wildly over time?

    (The truth is that you're wrong about money simply being moved around, but for the sake of argument I'm just wondering whether you think that would be a good way of doing things)

    Banks don't create new money, central banks do when they print it.


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