Should religious induction of children be banned?

FunLover18 · 17-05-2014 07:27PM

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

Before I read all that, can you clarify whether you are an atheist or not?

I am not an atheist. However I don't believe that my belief should be officiated or dictated by any organisation which is why I resent my association with the Catholic church. I have no problem with belief however indoctrinating children who don't know better into a religion is wrong and I feel it is a violation of their rights.

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

If Parents wish to independently indoctrinate their own children, then that is their business and right to do so. Parents are entitled to bring up their children as they think best, so long as they are doing so within the law, this does not exclude those who believe in fantasies/fairytales/superstitions. On saying that I am eternally grateful that I have patients who are not deluded by religion.

Again, there is a difference between educating and indoctrinating.

el pasco · 17-05-2014 07:27PM

Red Pepper wrote: »

Brainwashing of children by any organised cult is wrong whether it takes place in schools or elsewhere. Children should be left to be children. A happy wondrous childhood is often the most precious gift we can have - filling that childhood with fears about sin/hell/crucifiction etc is not healthy. Let them figure out the meaning of life and join an organised religion when they are 18, if they feel the need to do so.

What do you define as brain washing and what do you define as a cult?

Like would Stalin's Russia be a brain washing cult?

el pasco · 17-05-2014 07:29PM

Red Nissan wrote: »

A child is until their 13th birthday.

Until then a child should not receive any religious instruction from any religion.

Why not?
Would you classify atheism as a religion?

FunLover18 · 17-05-2014 07:29PM

Manach wrote: »

Option for the OP is clueless who has no idea the benefits the religion brings to society. The attempt secularisation of society plays into the hands of those wishing to denormalise values of right and wrong in society by setting up whatever the state thinks is correct. They tried to get rid of Catholicism during penal times, if should should tried again then there will be a similar violent reaction,

A violent reaction from who?

el pasco · 17-05-2014 07:32PM

Red Nissan wrote: »

Just don't lie about it. It is in fact one of the prime commandments and yet that's the first thing we do, is lie to our kids [children].

As example, I told my own brood, five of them, that Santa was a story and we and people who loved them bought the presents and we put then under the trees and in the socks and so on ~ we had brilliant times.

There is one essential commodity in life, truth. One must set their chikdren on the path of truth.

But what exactly is the path of truth?
What do you define as truth??
Can there be many truths??

Kiwi in IE · 17-05-2014 07:32PM

el pasco wrote: »

One man indoctrination is another's man education
For instance I would consider Richard Dawkins indoctrinating but you might consider it education

You could call all of education indoctrination if you want to
It's all about opinion simple

I would consider Richard Dawkins a man with an opinion actually.

Anything taught as fact which cannot be proven to be true would count as indoctrination I think. I don't want my child taught to blindly follow unproven beliefs. I don't want him to grow up to be an unquestioning lemming. There are plenty of those around already.

Temptamperu · 17-05-2014 07:35PM

While im a hardline atheist (according to herself) I do use god with my nephew. Such as Holy god can see you when your bold. I use him as I would use santa.
Im against baptisms as most people are just doing it so their little angel isn't the only one not making their communion.

burtslimpslon · 17-05-2014 07:35PM

OP, you say you had no choice making your confirmation, well that's unfortunate but i was and would say atleast now most children are given the choice. My mam would tell me baptism and communion are your parents choice but you make the choice about confirmation. And you don't have to go to a catholic school? There are plenty of educate together schools. My secondary school is non-denominational and we learn about all religions.

FunLover18 · 17-05-2014 07:41PM

burtslimpslon wrote: »

OP, you say you had no choice making your confirmation, well that's unfortunate but i was and would say atleast now most children are given the choice. My mam would tell me baptism and communion are your parents choice but you make the choice about confirmation. And you don't have to go to a catholic school? There are plenty of educate together schools. My secondary school is non-denominational and we learn about all religions.

I am aware that things have changed for the better in this regard, I'm speaking from my experience and from conversations I've had with other people my age. But regardless of choice I don't believe it should even be an option, and certainly not in schools.

Red Nissan · 17-05-2014 07:42PM

el pasco wrote: »

Why not?
Would you classify atheism as a religion?

I believe the child should be free.
I believe the child is the most important thing and person bar none.

Religion lies.

Atheism says God in all froms does not exist. God is the optimum word, and by default doing things in his name.

Religion, without the lies, is a massive social support community.

Kiwi in IE · 17-05-2014 07:42PM

Because religious people wish to classify the indoctrination of their delusional beliefs and superstitious rituals as 'education', does not make it reality. But then religion and reality can't be expected to happily co exist anyway.

shruikan2553 · 17-05-2014 07:48PM

Manach wrote: »

Option for the OP is clueless who has no idea the benefits the religion brings to society. The attempt secularisation of society plays into the hands of those wishing to denormalise values of right and wrong in society by setting up whatever the state thinks is correct. They tried to get rid of Catholicism during penal times, if should should tried again then there will be a similar violent reaction,

Do you think it is right to stone people to death? What about keeping slaves as long as you treat them well?

If you said no to these, well done. You managed to decide yourself what is right and wrong even if it goes against a religious belief. Repeat until you no longer need to be told what is right and wrong.

Red Pepper · 17-05-2014 07:49PM

el pasco wrote: »

What do you define as brain washing and what do you define as a cult?

Any ongoing religious indoctrination by any organised religion to anyone under-18.

Red Nissan · 17-05-2014 07:49PM

el pasco wrote: »

But what exactly is the path of truth?
What do you define as truth??
Can there be many truths??

Truth is what you BELIEVE.

Spring Onion · 17-05-2014 07:53PM

el pasco wrote: »

Would you classify atheism as a religion?

Of course not, that's a silly question.

Red Nissan · 17-05-2014 07:53PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I would consider Richard Dawkins a man with an opinion actually..

My only problem with Dawkins is he knows more about religions than all the religious put together.

Ironic in a way, as an atheist myself, I was only looking for a quite life ~ but some Muslims would happily behead me and expect 40 virgins put aside in Allah for them for later.

Someone post a facepalm picture, please.

Temptamperu · 17-05-2014 07:55PM

Red Nissan wrote: »

Truth is what you BELIEVE.

People believe what they are told. Imagine all these catholics would they still be catholics if they were from sudan? no. Their religion is right and its also the one they were born into.

Spring Onion · 17-05-2014 07:57PM

Red Nissan wrote: »

My only problem with Dawkins is he knows more about religions than all the religious put together.

Ironic in a way, as an atheist myself, I was only looking for a quite life ~ but some Muslims would happily behead me and expect 40 virgins put aside in Allah for them for later.

Someone post a facepalm picture, please.

Funny how the various religions hate atheism more than they hate each other. Atheism risks bringing down the whole religion circus so religious people now fear atheists more than they fear each other. I suppose it's like Independents in the Dáil, the other traditional parties hate them because they can destabilise the status quo (power and money is the common denominator).

Red Nissan · 17-05-2014 08:00PM

Temptamperu wrote: »

People believe what they are told. Imagine all these catholics would they still be catholics if they were from sudan? no. Their religion is right and its also the one they were born into.

Not so simplistic. In Saudi Arabia this week for instance, one can be imprisoned for being an Atheist or even beheaded. BTW, terrorists and homosexuals are also thrown into that mix.

That's brutal coercion.

poundapunnet · 17-05-2014 08:03PM

I got all the sacraments, went to Catholic school, survived just grand. Far more pressing priorities for child protection honestly. It'd be nice if the secularisation of the schools would hurry up though.

And I'm kind of confused. If religion is a) something that no rational adult could possibly be fooled by and b) completely made up anyway, then why the hell does it matter if your parents had a man spill some water on you as an infant? It's certainly very frustrating that it's so difficult to officially leave the Catholic church, and I understand the point about religious schools negatively affecting the child's broader education. But honestly, switch a word here and there and y'all sound like the bible bashers having a fanny attack over kids being raised by gay parents or something.

Atheists vs the religious gets very Animal Farm a lot of the time.

Temptamperu · 17-05-2014 08:07PM

Red Nissan wrote: »

Not so simplistic. In Saudi Arabia this week for instance, one can be imprisoned for being an Atheist or even beheaded. BTW, terrorists and homosexuals are also thrown into that mix.

That's brutal coercion.

They live life as if it was 1200 years ago. Saudi Arabia was the center for learning in the world everyone welcome and great works were done.

Religion destroyed that like it has destroyed our history.

Red Nissan · 17-05-2014 08:10PM

poundapunnet wrote: »

It's certainly very frustrating that it's so difficult to officially leave the Catholic church,

Atheists vs the religious gets very Animal Farm a lot of the time.

You can NEVER leave the Catholic Church. Fact.

Animal Farm is about Politics. Why do we need our rulers anyway.

If God exists, it makes no difference if I believe or not, I will be precessed anyway and I possibly won't even know about it.

But we supposedly elect peoples' representatives' and they then don't represent the people, and we are run by a higher power, not God, but alluded to as a concept.

Shall I go on?

dlouth15 · 17-05-2014 08:13PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

But do children not have the right to choose their own faith? I think every person has the right to make an enlightened decision, but I don't think minors have the experience or knowledge to make that decision. Of course parents have the right to educate their children but the child when matured should then be allowed to make their own choice on whether they want to be indoctrinated.

I think at the end of the day religious people will in general seek to pass on their religious values to their children. Atheists will likewise seek to pass on their view that there's no god. Some parents will avoid planting particular values in their children but may explain what the different religions and atheism believe but not try to push one or other view. Whatever the wisdom of each of these approaches, it is the not role of the state to be involved.

I think the history of religion should be taught, it is a huge part of human history and cannot be ignored. As the schools aren't preaching and/or converting.

I was talking about religious education in the traditional sense - i.e. teaching religious doctrine as fact. I didn't mean history of religion or neutral comparison of religions.

poundapunnet · 17-05-2014 08:14PM

Red Nissan wrote: »

You can NEVER leave the Catholic Church. Fact.

Animal Farm is about Politics. Why do we need our rulers anyway.

If God exists, it makes no difference if I believe or not, I will be precessed anyway and I possibly won't even know about it.

But we supposedly elect peoples' representatives' and they then don't represent the people, and we are run by a higher power, not God, but alluded to as a concept.

Shall I go on?

I was referring to the famous closing lines:

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

Go on if you want, but I'd appreciate it if you backtracked and explained what on earth you were on about first.

Birroc · 17-05-2014 08:18PM

Temptamperu wrote: »

They live life as if it was 1200 years ago. Saudi Arabia was the center for learning in the world everyone welcome and great works were done.

Religion destroyed that like it has destroyed our history.

Controversial maybe but I think religion makes people stupid.

Wacker The Attacker · 17-05-2014 08:20PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

Article 44, section 2.1 of Bunreacht na hÉireann states

Like the vast majority of Irish children;

1) As a baby I was baptised and I think we can all agree that babies are in no position to understand the word ‘religion’ let alone what it means.
I attended a national school which like most was named after a saint and like most schools it had a Catholic ethos; religion class involved learning prayers, the story of Jesus, etc. There was little taught about other religions.
2) Aged 7/8 (I can’t remember) I received my first communion. This was a school event, a priest would come in every now and again to give special lessons and run through the procedure. I don’t remember ever being offered a choice. At the time I just understood it to be the norm and something all children did.
3) Aged 12 I was confirmed. Again no choice, and was led to believe it was the norm. Given the ethos of the school it was only in secondary school when I became inquisitive about religion and began to question it.

I believe that the induction a person under the age of 16 (age of sexual consent although I wouldn’t object to it being higher) into any religion should be considered unconstitutional given that the Catholic faith has been pressed upon me essentially since birth, and like most persons under 16 I lacked the information, knowledge, or experience to be aware of the full consequences. I wasn’t allowed vote till I was 18 but I’m allowed have my faith chosen for me after only a few months out of the womb.

I’m OK with religious education should be continued in schools provided it is an education of the history and global impact of the various religions and not a sermon. This would also be a huge step forward in the secularisation of our schools in this country.

Thoughts?

To clarify the poll options:
Yes = Yes
Down With This Sort Of Thing = No
Careful Now = Don't Care/Undecided

What happens if you are "religiously indoctrinated" by someone outside of school as a child?

Geomy · 17-05-2014 08:24PM

Maybe theology should be an option in secondary schools and they can make their own mind after that.

Im only starting to become more sceptical about organised religion in the last few years.
But since I let go of the fire and brimstone ****e my life has gotten easier.

FunLover18 · 17-05-2014 08:25PM

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

What happens if you are "religiously indoctrinated" by someone outside of school as a child?

I still think it's a violation of the constitution regardless of whether it takes place in or out of school. You're taking away the child's right to free profession.

Red Nissan · 17-05-2014 08:26PM

Temptamperu wrote: »

Religion destroyed that like it has destroyed our history.

Quickly, Christ emerged on Earth and found himself alienating the local clergy and they used that to alienate the local Government, the then Roman Empire.

Various factions took Christ's teachings and amassed massive followers, this was used by Rome's enemies to undermine her authority and uprisings were called for against Rome [Gihad], Rome was weak about this time and they marveled at how so many followed unarmed and unpaid ???? so they were curious.

They found the leaders and slaughtered them and set up the Holy Roman Catholic Church and united the regions again for a few hundred years.

Approximately 600CE, the eastern Roman Empire realised that Rome was in fact still in effect and they rebelled and became the Islamic nations decrying the Roman Church as 'heretic' and not following its religious indent, but merely using religion to rule without a standing army or taxes, they got donations instead.

Wacker The Attacker · 17-05-2014 08:26PM

Birroc wrote: »

Controversial maybe but I think religion makes people stupid.

I've experienced absolute morons that don't believe in god. Your statement is stupid.

Should religious induction of children be banned?

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