Should religious induction of children be banned?

Arthur Beesley · 17-05-2014 06:30PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

Article 44, section 2.1 of Bunreacht na hÉireann states

Like the vast majority of Irish children;

1) As a baby I was baptised and I think we can all agree that babies are in no position to understand the word ‘religion’ let alone what it means.
I attended a national school which like most was named after a saint and like most schools it had a Catholic ethos; religion class involved learning prayers, the story of Jesus, etc. There was little taught about other religions.
2) Aged 7/8 (I can’t remember) I received my first communion. This was a school event, a priest would come in every now and again to give special lessons and run through the procedure. I don’t remember ever being offered a choice. At the time I just understood it to be the norm and something all children did.
3) Aged 12 I was confirmed. Again no choice, and was led to believe it was the norm. Given the ethos of the school it was only in secondary school when I became inquisitive about religion and began to question it.

I believe that the induction a person under the age of 16 (age of sexual consent although I wouldn’t object to it being higher) into any religion should be considered unconstitutional given that the Catholic faith has been pressed upon me essentially since birth, and like most persons under 16 I lacked the information, knowledge, or experience to be aware of the full consequences. I wasn’t allowed vote till I was 18 but I’m allowed have my faith chosen for me after only a few months out of the womb.

I’m OK with religious education should be continued in schools provided it is an education of the history and global impact of the various religions and not a sermon. This would also be a huge step forward in the secularisation of our schools in this country.

Thoughts?

To clarify the poll options:
Yes = Yes
Down With This Sort Of Thing = No
Careful Now = Don't Care/Undecided

Before I read all that, can you clarify whether you are an atheist or not?

foggy_lad · 17-05-2014 06:31PM

Why are poll results hidden OP?

Greenmachine · 17-05-2014 06:37PM

Should not happen. State should have seized all the church assets when they had a chance. The church should be tenants in their churches and should not own any schools anymore.

hairyprincess · 17-05-2014 06:38PM

Red Nissan wrote: »

A child. Up to 12 years of age ~ they are legally children.

FYI: Up to 1908 the age of the First Holy Communicant was 12 years OR more, and her parents had also to be practicing Catholics AND pass a few questions from the Bishop who, back then, administered the sacrament.

A child is a child up to the age of 18.

Red Pepper · 17-05-2014 06:39PM

Brainwashing of children by any organised cult is wrong whether it takes place in schools or elsewhere. Children should be left to be children. A happy wondrous childhood is often the most precious gift we can have - filling that childhood with fears about sin/hell/crucifiction etc is not healthy. Let them figure out the meaning of life and join an organised religion when they are 18, if they feel the need to do so.

PopePalpatine · 17-05-2014 06:40PM

catallus wrote: »

This is vacuous nonsense; it shows a little bit of wilful blindness to social mores. OP what age are you?

2, 4, 6, 8!

It is time to obfuscate!

Birroc · 17-05-2014 06:41PM

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

I am not religious but voted no.

It's communion month now. A lot of local businesses in my town have had a lift because of it - barbers, restaurants, clothes shops. Is that a bad thing?

Sure, we should expand the whole cannibalism traditions to keep the economy growing.

Red Nissan · 17-05-2014 06:42PM

hairyprincess wrote: »

A child is a child up to the age of 18.

No. Common misconception. It is 12 in the Ireland and the UK. Minor is the word you are looking for and it is a legal definition.

For technical reasons, a dependent can be a child until 24 ~ I'd have to look it up but I won't, and after that they are adults. But a child is up to 12 years of age.

Arthur Beesley · 17-05-2014 06:44PM

Birroc wrote: »

Sure, we should expand the whole cannibalism traditions to keep the economy growing.

Makes sense alright. Not sure reducing the population artificially will help the economy grow though - unless we are eating illegal immigrants and non nationals on the dole or something.

Cazzoenorme · 17-05-2014 06:47PM

Links234 wrote: »

I'm going to say no, and say that it should be the right of the parents to raise their children within whatever moral or religious framework they want (within reason). I don't necesseraly think it's right to indoctrinate children into a religion, but I don't think it's right to make it illegal or otherwise ban it.

I'm an atheist and repeatedly been called a liberal fascist, but come on... That's a bit much.

Children's right to make their own religous decisions are more important than parents' rights to indocrinate their children. It's immoral, simple as.

Czarcasm · 17-05-2014 06:48PM

D1stant wrote: »

Yes. I think Richard Dawkins characterises this correctly as child abuse.

Five posts into a discussion on religion and someone throws in Dawkins. It's like the new Godwin (God... win? Hmm). Seriously though, have you no opinion of your own or do you just defer to Dawkins for everything in your life?

I'm fairly sure the irony is lost on you.

(notwithstanding the fact that Dawkins came out with that knowing full well he'd get a reaction. Most people saw it for what it was though - Dick being a dick).

catallus wrote: »

For what it's worth I think we should have more religious education, not less. The little heathens need to be turned into responsible adults and the best way is to have the fear of god in them!

And this sort of crap is just as bad, but I've come to expect nothing less from you catallus tbh. That's why nobody with an ounce of common sense will ever take you seriously. I'm not sure why you specifically picked on people who are pagan either, they're as likely to be secular as anyone else, religious, spiritual or atheist.

To address the question itself -

No OP, I don't think religious practice should be banned. Prohibition has historically been proven to exacerbate an issue rather than quash it. So naturally if you were to ban all forms of religious indoctrination, you'd only drive it underground (think catacombs, and even hedge schools!).

The way to promote secularism is not through promoting anti-theism, but through educating people and allowing them to come to their own conclusions. That way it's less about some "Won't somebody think of the children!" mentality, and more simply allowing people to think for themselves.

Adults pass their values and morals on to the next generation in many more ways than just religion, so if the State were to ban religion, where would you suggest they then stop? Because someone else will want fast food banned, someone else again will want the Irish language banned, etc, etc, so your methods would allow for more State interference in people's lives, at the expense of your civil liberties - the very thing you were advocating for, is now being used against you, or eventually would be anyway.

The State loves nothing more than interfering in the lives of it's citizens, and you'll have just handed them a hammer to use on their wedging their way into people's civil liberties.

Red Nissan · 17-05-2014 06:49PM

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

Makes sense alright. Not sure reducing the population artificially will help the economy grow though - unless we are eating illegal immigrants and non nationals on the dole or something.

We'd need bigger pots, wouldn't we? That might regenerate the Blacksmith Industry to make giant cauldrons, and we'd need wood of course, or Gas Mark 7 ~ no, we'd better go Eco and chop down a few trees for firewood.

steddyeddy · 17-05-2014 06:50PM

The old saying goes you learn something new everyday unless you go to a faith school.

Red Nissan · 17-05-2014 06:53PM

Cazzoenorme wrote: »

Children's right to make their own religous decisions are more important than parents' rights to indocrinate their children. It's immoral, simple as.

Worth saying again.

One's child is one's most precious gift, or should be, most parents only want the best and dote on their children.

Yet, like come on a minute, freedom is the most precious gift one can give one's children.

catallus · 17-05-2014 06:57PM

I'd be more concerned about those parents who reject religion and deprive their children of the cultural treasure of faith; what kind of future citizens are they raising?

To say that children can choose anything for themselves is just one of the cruder manifestations of this anti-cultural malaise which unbelievers would gleefully foist on our society.

Red Nissan · 17-05-2014 07:02PM

catallus wrote: »

I'd be more concerned about those parents who reject religion and deprive their children of the cultural treasure of faith; what kind of future citizens are they raising?

To say that children can choose anything for themselves is just one of the cruder manifestations of this anti-cultural malaise which unbelievers would gleefully foist on our society.

Just don't lie about it. It is in fact one of the prime commandments and yet that's the first thing we do, is lie to our kids [children].

As example, I told my own brood, five of them, that Santa was a story and we and people who loved them bought the presents and we put then under the trees and in the socks and so on ~ we had brilliant times.

There is one essential commodity in life, truth. One must set their chikdren on the path of truth.

catallus · 17-05-2014 07:07PM

Red Nissan wrote: »

Just don't lie about it.....[]

There is one essential commodity in life, truth. One must set their chikdren on the path of truth.

Which makes it all the more important to make sure they are aware of their cultural heritage and know about the things which have fostered our culture for thousands of years, no?

Kiwi in IE · 17-05-2014 07:08PM

If Parents wish to independently indoctrinate their own children, then that is their business and right to do so. Parents are entitled to bring up their children as they think best, so long as they are doing so within the law, this does not exclude those who believe in fantasies/fairytales/superstitions. On saying that I am eternally grateful that I have patients who are not deluded by religion.

Where I agree with you wholeheartedly, is that it should be completely removed from state schools. Communion/Confirmation being done in school time is bizarre and absurd. Schools are there to educate, not indoctrinate therefore factual information about the beliefs of all religions should be given, as opposed to presenting the superstitious/supernatural beliefs and rituals of one religion as fact. The way the education systems works presently in this country is indoctrination of epic proportions.

kingchess · 17-05-2014 07:10PM

my youngest daughter is six,anytime she asks me about God I just say some people believe in him and others do not,she learns about different faiths in the gaelscoil and most kids in her class and herself are not getting communion

el pasco · 17-05-2014 07:14PM

Links234 wrote: »

I'm going to say no, and say that it should be the right of the parents to raise their children within whatever moral or religious framework they want (within reason). I don't necesseraly think it's right to indoctrinate children into a religion, but I don't think it's right to make it illegal or otherwise ban it.

I'm an atheist and repeatedly been called a liberal fascist, but come on... That's a bit much.

Agree with you 100%
Imagine having you're child indoctrinated by Prophet Dawkins hehe!! ,-)
God now that would be hell
Glad to see that there are levelled headed atheists out there

Don't know which is worse a religious fanatic or a atheist fanatic!

FunLover18 · 17-05-2014 07:15PM

First off, apologies for the confusion regarding poll options

Secondly, upon reading the comments I think 'minors' would have been a better term than 'children'

catallus wrote: »

Religious induction is solely the responsibility and choice of the parents of the child. End of story. There are pagans out there who would like to have social control over people about what they say and think and there's no softer target than religious choice.

For what it's worth I think we should have more religious education, not less. The little heathens need to be turned into responsible adults and the best way is to have the fear of god in them!

Caazeoenorme has responded to this for me? Why should parents the faith of their child, surely that should be the choice of the child when he/she comes of age

Cazzoenorme wrote: »

Children's right to make their own religous decisions are more important than parents' rights to indocrinate their children. It's immoral, simple as.

dlouth15 wrote: »

Two aspects to this.

If a child's parents are practicing catholics, budhists, muslims whatever, it's not the state's business telling those parents what they can and cannot pass on to their children. It may be an enlightened decision for a parent to allow their child to grow to maturity and let them make up their own mind, but this has to be voluntary on the part of the parent. Anything else is futile in any case. If parents are devout religious people, they are going to pass that on to their offspring no matter what..

But do children not have the right to choose their own faith? I think every person has the right to make an enlightened decision, but I don't think minors have the experience or knowledge to make that decision. Of course parents have the right to educate their children but the child when matured should then be allowed to make their own choice on whether they want to be indoctrinated.

dlouth15 wrote: »

However, I don't think the state should be involved in religious education. Let the religious organisations organise their own classes after school or on the weekends if they so wish. I would have no objection to school buildings being rented after hours to these organisations on the same basis that they do for others.

I think the history of religion should be taught, it is a huge part of human history and cannot be ignored. As the schools aren't preaching and/or converting.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Why are poll results hidden OP?

Personally when I'm voting in a poll I like to vote objectively. It's just a personal choice, you can view them without voting, it's just an extra click

Red Nissan · 17-05-2014 07:18PM

catallus wrote: »

Which makes it all the more important to make sure they are aware of their cultural heritage and know about the things which have fostered our culture for thousands of years, no?

If I told you I grew up in the fifties and sixties?

We do have a religious culture that bordered on the Islamic Indoctrination and we also share a culture of betrayal that kept us, those of us who think we are Irish, under the yoke of the Vatican and English Rule.

Lies are in our culture.

So, yes, it's a great place to start. "Children, I am sorry, I lied to you, ........ "

el pasco · 17-05-2014 07:19PM

Cazzoenorme wrote: »

Children's right to make their own religous decisions are more important than parents' rights to indocrinate their children. It's immoral, simple as.

You're wrong there as parents make the choice for children over most of their lives from where they go to school where there they go on holiday where they live etc

hairyprincess · 17-05-2014 07:19PM

Red Nissan wrote: »

No. Common misconception. It is 12 in the Ireland and the UK. Minor is the word you are looking for and it is a legal definition.

For technical reasons, a dependent can be a child until 24 ~ I'd have to look it up but I won't, and after that they are adults. But a child is up to 12 years of age.

The Age of Majority Act, 1985 states "A person who is not of full age may be described as a minor instead of as an infant and, accordingly, in this Act “minor” means such a person"
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1985/en/act/pub/0002/sec0003.html#sec3

However, the Child Care Act, 1991 states "“child” means a person under the age of 18 years other than a person who is or has been married"
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1991/en/act/pub/0017/sec0002.html#sec2

Manach · 17-05-2014 07:20PM

Option for the OP is clueless who has no idea the benefits the religion brings to society. The attempt secularisation of society plays into the hands of those wishing to denormalise values of right and wrong in society by setting up whatever the state thinks is correct. They tried to get rid of Catholicism during penal times, if should should tried again then there will be a similar violent reaction,

el pasco · 17-05-2014 07:21PM

Greenmachine wrote: »

Should not happen. State should have seized all the church assets when they had a chance. The church should be tenants in their churches and should not own any schools anymore.

Why?

Pwindedd · 17-05-2014 07:21PM

catallus wrote: »

I'd be more concerned about those parents who reject religion and deprive their children of the cultural treasure of faith; what kind of future citizens are they raising?

Assuming they bring them up with good manners, kind hearts and all the requisite social skills (none of which require a religious environment) then they stand a resonable chance of becoming healthy productive law abiding citizens.

_Redzer_ · 17-05-2014 07:22PM

catallus wrote: »

Which makes it all the more important to make sure they are aware of their cultural heritage and know about the things which have fostered our culture for thousands of years, no?

Oh you mean the cultural heritage of sexual obsession and abuse that ensnared Ireland up until a few decades ago?

Red Nissan · 17-05-2014 07:23PM

Manach wrote: »

Option for the OP is clueless who has no idea the benefits the religion brings to society. The attempt secularisation of society plays into the hands of those wishing to denormalise values of right and wrong in society by setting up whatever the state thinks is correct. They tried to get rid of Catholicism during penal times, if should should tried again then there will be a similar violent reaction,

Don't EVER forget that in those same penal times, someone of that congregation SHOPPED THEM ALL IN.

We are a nation of shoppers.

el pasco · 17-05-2014 07:24PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

If Parents wish to independently indoctrinate their own children, then that is their business and right to do so. Parents are entitled to bring up their children as they think best, so long as they are doing so within the law, this does not exclude those who believe in fantasies/fairytales/superstitions. On saying that I am eternally grateful that I have patients who are not deluded by religion.

Where I agree with you wholeheartedly, is that it should be completely removed from state schools. Communion/Confirmation being done in school time is bizarre and absurd. Schools are there to educate, not indoctrinate therefore factual information about the beliefs of all religions should be given, as opposed to presenting the superstitious/supernatural beliefs and rituals of one religion as fact. The way the education systems works presently in this country is indoctrination of epic proportions.

One man indoctrination is another's man education
For instance I would consider Richard Dawkins indoctrinating but you might consider it education

You could call all of education indoctrination if you want to
It's all about opinion simple

Should religious induction of children be banned?

Comments