Should religious induction of children be banned?

FunLover18 · 17-05-2014 05:05PM #1

Article 44, section 2.1 of Bunreacht na hÉireann states

Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practise of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen

Like the vast majority of Irish children;

1) As a baby I was baptised and I think we can all agree that babies are in no position to understand the word ‘religion’ let alone what it means.
I attended a national school which like most was named after a saint and like most schools it had a Catholic ethos; religion class involved learning prayers, the story of Jesus, etc. There was little taught about other religions.
2) Aged 7/8 (I can’t remember) I received my first communion. This was a school event, a priest would come in every now and again to give special lessons and run through the procedure. I don’t remember ever being offered a choice. At the time I just understood it to be the norm and something all children did.
3) Aged 12 I was confirmed. Again no choice, and was led to believe it was the norm. Given the ethos of the school it was only in secondary school when I became inquisitive about religion and began to question it.

I believe that the induction a person under the age of 16 (age of sexual consent although I wouldn’t object to it being higher) into any religion should be considered unconstitutional given that the Catholic faith has been pressed upon me essentially since birth, and like most persons under 16 I lacked the information, knowledge, or experience to be aware of the full consequences. I wasn’t allowed vote till I was 18 but I’m allowed have my faith chosen for me after only a few months out of the womb.

I’m OK with religious education should be continued in schools provided it is an education of the history and global impact of the various religions and not a sermon. This would also be a huge step forward in the secularisation of our schools in this country.

Thoughts?

To clarify the poll options and poll results so far (as I accidentally made them private)
Yes = Yes 220 votes 64.33%
Down With This Sort Of Thing = No 65 votes 19.01%
Careful Now = Don't Care/Undecided 57 votes 16.67%

Pwindedd · 17-05-2014 05:07PM

I agree wholeheartedly. Especially as you can't officially leave the faith when you grow (wise) up.

kneemos · 17-05-2014 05:09PM

Where's the no option?

D1stant · 17-05-2014 05:10PM

Yes. I think Richard Dawkins characterises this correctly as child abuse.

catallus · 17-05-2014 05:11PM

Maybe you should ask your parents about it, OP? It is they, not the state, that treated you so harshly.

KyussBishop · 17-05-2014 05:14PM

It's a bit of a minefield this one - how would you ban it, without government dictating what parents can/cannot teach children? (which sets a bad precedent, where this could be expanded to other politically-charged topics)

Red Nissan · 17-05-2014 05:15PM

A child is until their 13th birthday.

Until then a child should not receive any religious instruction from any religion.

Links234 · 17-05-2014 05:15PM

I'm going to say no, and say that it should be the right of the parents to raise their children within whatever moral or religious framework they want (within reason). I don't necesseraly think it's right to indoctrinate children into a religion, but I don't think it's right to make it illegal or otherwise ban it.

I'm an atheist and repeatedly been called a liberal fascist, but come on... That's a bit much.

eviltwin · 17-05-2014 05:17PM

I'm not religious but I don't think it should be banned. The state shouldn't micro manage our lives to that extent. It shouldn't facilitate that faith formation though, schools should be secular.

Sonics2k · 17-05-2014 05:18PM

KyussBishop wrote: »

It's a bit of a minefield this one - how would you ban it, without government dictating what parents can/cannot teach children? (which sets a bad precedent, where this could be expanded to other politically-charged topics)

Banning it is overkill, no-one rational would want that.

Schools however should not do it, and yes it is indoctrination. Schools should focus on actual education.

If a parent wants to raise their child under a certain religion, well that's fine and they can do so at home or at a local Church/Moque/Synagogue etc outside school hours. Nice and simple.

_Redzer_ · 17-05-2014 05:20PM

Definitely yes in the sense that they're not allowed to trap you into one for like without your say.

I'm roped into an organisation for life now without my consent because they removed the option for me to leave.

I feel you should be able to grow up impartial to any religion and then choose what suits you best when you come of age. Be that a religion, or no religion at all.

I wouldn't care if parents raised the kid with a religious frame work, but I think the child should be free to go whenever they please.

catallus · 17-05-2014 05:23PM

Isn't the age of consent here 17? Am I wrong?

Tin Foil Hat · 17-05-2014 05:23PM

Yup, especially when that induction includes a ritual mutilation.

FunLover18 · 17-05-2014 05:23PM

KyussBishop wrote: »

It's a bit of a minefield this one - how would you ban it, without government dictating what parents can/cannot teach children? (which sets a bad precedent, where this could be expanded to other politically-charged topics)

I have no problem with parents educating there children on their own religion however I don't see why they have a right to indoctrinate that child. That child has the right to choose its own religion and I don't believe a child of 7 who has been raised by Catholic parents in a Catholic school (your average Irish child) has all the information to make that choice.

kneemos wrote: »

Where's the no option?

'Down with this sort of thing' is the no option

catallus wrote: »

Maybe you should ask your parents about it, OP? It is they, not the state, that treated you so harshly.

Don't think I don't hold my parents accountable to some degree. They violated my rights however the State allowed them and allows thousands others to do so despite claiming to protect those rights.

nlgbbbblth · 17-05-2014 05:26PM

I am not religious but voted no.

It's communion month now. A lot of local businesses in my town have had a lift because of it - barbers, restaurants, clothes shops. Is that a bad thing?

catallus · 17-05-2014 05:27PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

I have no problem with parents educating there children on their own religion however I don't see why they have a right to indoctrinate that child. That child has the right to choose its own religion and I don't believe a child of 7 who has been raised by Catholic parents in a Catholic school (your average Irish child) has all the information to make that choice.

This is vacuous nonsense; it shows a little bit of wilful blindness to social mores. OP what age are you?

ryan101 · 17-05-2014 05:30PM

It was done before, and didn't work out too well :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism

Benny_Cake · 17-05-2014 05:32PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

I have no problem with parents educating there children on their own religion however I don't see why they have a right to indoctrinate that child. That child has the right to choose its own religion and I don't believe a child of 7 who has been raised by Catholic parents in a Catholic school (your average Irish child) has all the information to make that choice.

'Down with this sort of thing' is the no option

Don't think I don't hold my parents accountable to some degree. They violated my rights however the State allowed them and allows thousands others to do so despite claiming to protect those rights.

What's the difference between "parents educating there children on their own religion" and indoctrination, though? It sounds like a subjective judgement call to me. Who gets to define what indoctrination is, and how would the State be able to prevent it?

eviltwin · 17-05-2014 05:32PM

ryan101 wrote: »

It was done before, and didn't work out too well :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism

I think you are confusing forced atheism with a secular state where no one faith is promoted but people are still free to practice as they wish.

Red Nissan · 17-05-2014 05:36PM

Links234 wrote: »

I'm going to say no, and say that it should be the right of the parents to raise their children within whatever moral or religious framework they want (within reason). I

See, the argument is coming apart already. The whole point of it all is reason. I personally put belief in a deity beyond reason.

And we must not confine this to a Christian or a Holy Roman Catholic upbringing.

Islam is so not within reason by any western standards and we have recently have had an Islamic King decrying Islamic Terrorists, now that is within reason ~ more of that and we would not need these arguments.

hairyprincess · 17-05-2014 05:41PM

Red Nissan wrote: »

A child is until their 13th birthday.

Until then a child should not receive any religious instruction from any religion.

A child is what until their 13th birthday?

Poll results are hidden op

Red Nissan · 17-05-2014 05:41PM

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

I am not religious but voted no.

It's communion month now. A lot of local businesses in my town have had a lift because of it - barbers, restaurants, clothes shops. Is that a bad thing?

It won't change too much, it will mean the child will now be a teenager and adolescent for Confirmation ~ actually might even make more money, in the confirmation circuit, I actually make as much from selling directly to the child.

Not too far removed from what the average Protestant COI families do in fact.

kneemos · 17-05-2014 05:45PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

I have no problem with parents educating there children on their own religion however I don't see why they have a right to indoctrinate that child. That child has the right to choose its own religion and I don't believe a child of 7 who has been raised by Catholic parents in a Catholic school (your average Irish child) has all the information to make that choice.

'Down with this sort of thing' is the no option

Don't think I don't hold my parents accountable to some degree. They violated my rights however the State allowed them and allows thousands others to do so despite claiming to protect those rights.

Not very clear.More like a yes than a no.

donegal. · 17-05-2014 05:46PM

religion should not be taught in schools.
if parents want to send their kids to sunday school to learn its thats fine.
where i live i have 2 choices, home schooling and brainwashing (a couple of weeks ago my six yr olds homework was to colour in a picture of the crucifiction ffs)

Red Nissan · 17-05-2014 05:47PM

hairyprincess wrote: »

A child is what until their 13th birthday?

Poll results are hidden op

A child. Up to 12 years of age ~ they are legally children.

FYI: Up to 1908 the age of the First Holy Communicant was 12 years OR more, and her parents had also to be practicing Catholics AND pass a few questions from the Bishop who, back then, administered the sacrament.

catallus · 17-05-2014 05:54PM

Religious induction is solely the responsibility and choice of the parents of the child. End of story. There are pagans out there who would like to have social control over people about what they say and think and there's no softer target than religious choice.

For what it's worth I think we should have more religious education, not less. The little heathens need to be turned into responsible adults and the best way is to have the fear of god in them!

dlouth15 · 17-05-2014 05:54PM

Two aspects to this.

If a child's parents are practicing catholics, budhists, muslims whatever, it's not the state's business telling those parents what they can and cannot pass on to their children. It may be an enlightened decision for a parent to allow their child to grow to maturity and let them make up their own mind, but this has to be voluntary on the part of the parent. Anything else is futile in any case. If parents are devout religious people, they are going to pass that on to their offspring no matter what.

However, I don't think the state should be involved in religious education. Let the religious organisations organise their own classes after school or on the weekends if they so wish. I would have no objection to school buildings being rented after hours to these organisations on the same basis that they do for others.

_Redzer_ · 17-05-2014 06:05PM

catallus wrote: »

Religious induction is solely the responsibility and choice of the parents of the child. End of story. There are pagans out there who would like to have social control over people about what they say and think and there's no softer target than religious choice.

For what it's worth I think we should have more religious education, not less. The little heathens need to be turned into responsible adults and the best way is to have the fear of god in them!

Why waste their time learning fairytales when that could be spent learning a foreign language or improving their maths skills?

There's far more practical and beneficial things you could do instead of wasting time with more religious education which shouldn't be in the schools at all.

shruikan2553 · 17-05-2014 06:16PM

I wouldnt ban it but leave it to parents and their religious groups to do the teaching. I find it pointless the state trying to teach it while the parents complain about having to actually go to mass around communions and confirmations.

StudentDad · 17-05-2014 06:27PM

Banning religious indoctrination is a step too far. I do consider the 'forced' indoctrination of children to be wrong. Just as parents have the right to educate their children in the tenets of their beliefs. Parents who do not follow a particular faith and do not want their children indoctrinated in any faith should have that wish recognised.

For me anyway there should be an absolute separation of church and state and as a follow on from that any school that receives state funding should be neutral in terms of belief.

To my mind religious instruction is a private matter, to be attended to outside school hours, where the school in question receives state funds.

SD

Lapin · 17-05-2014 06:29PM

Yes.

Should religious induction of children be banned?

Should the religious induction of minors be banned? 478 votes

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