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The Anti-Austerity Crowd

  • 17-05-2014 01:53PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    The people that protest against austerity. How would they expect Ireland to finance a country crippling government deficit?


    I don't get it. Could somebody explain? I've never heard of an alternative solution (that actually makes sense and would work better).


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Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4 beardy_murphy


    the " rich " will - should pay

    thats where their arguement starts and ends , their isnt anything more to it


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    Strongly clamping down on tax evasion, and end to using taxpayers money to bail out the kind of banks that aren't open to the public, raising corporate taxes, "Robin Hood" taxes on large bank transactions. That kind of thing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭oceanman


    that would be fine except the rich just seem to get richer!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    oceanman wrote: »
    that would be fine except the rich just seem to get richer!

    And good for them.

    We are all trying to get richer.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 953 ✭✭✭donegal__road


    ..


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Cutting out waste would be a huge part of it. You know, like the €86m consultancy and €200k salaries in Irish water for instance. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    It's not what the anti-austerity crowd advocates (it's barely known at all - and is hard to explain, which doesn't help), but you can use this to fund government deficits - it's like/analogous-to (but not quite the same as) public debt, except no interest payments, and because you can roll it over indefinitely, effectively you can pay it back when you like - it has limits though.

    Speaking about it in analogies always confuses the hell out of people - it's the only way to make it easier to understand though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,177 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    They are devoid of reality if you ask me.
    I should start by saying I'm a member of FG. But taxing the rich will not in any solve our problems.
    I would support an element of higher taxes for the wealthiest members of society but not as the likes of the Anti Austerity Alliance call for


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    What the anti-austerity crowd - and everyone really - should be fighting against now, is Property Bubble 2.0, as this is going to land us with another wave of mountainous public/private debt eventually, while enriching well connected folk in government/banking/finance/construction:
    http://brianmlucey.wordpress.com/2014/05/17/are-the-irish-government-nuts-their-housing-policy-is/

    It will be another upward-transfer of wealth, and a dumping of debt onto the rest of us.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,442 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    The people that protest against austerity. How would they expect Ireland to finance a country crippling government deficit?


    I don't get it. Could somebody explain? I've never heard of an alternative solution (that actually makes sense and would work better).

    I'm about as socialist as they come and i agree with Austerity. Well, to an extent.
    You're right, we had a huge drop in revenue and we had an increase in expenditure. We had to make cutbacks and we need to increase taxes. I think that no one group should be overly hit. And I think we do need to be careful with where we make cutbacks so as to minimise the pain.

    there are people who are pro austerity who want to gut the public service and social security. they're idiots. A balanced reasoned approach is what is needed.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,576 ✭✭✭pajor


    ryanf1 wrote: »
    They are devoid of reality if you ask me.
    I should start by saying I'm a member of FG. But taxing the rich will not in any solve our problems.
    I would support an element of higher taxes for the wealthiest members of society but not as the likes of the Anti Austerity Alliance call for

    The concept is very appealing; but I'm sure those at "the top" would just get the accountant to arrange some nice and legal tax avoidance to get around it. Maybe even reducing taxation revenues then.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭Joshua J


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    And good for them.

    We are all trying to get richer.

    It's extremely myopic to think that because you are money hungry and greedy that everybody is. I would in fact take less if it meant a fairer society.

    The fact that you position austerity as a positive says it all really.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,179 ✭✭✭hfallada


    I had a socialist LE candidate at my door this week and I asked him about what was his taxation beliefs. He said a more equaitable tax system and I asked him what he meant by that. He tried to tell me the bottom 20% of society pay more tax than the top 10% of society. He lost it when I told him our tax system is the second most progressive in the world and 50% of workers pay no tax. He also told me class doesnt have to exist(every socialists believe class will always exist and its beneficial to society) and a doctor shouldnt earn more than anyone else in society

    Most of these anti-austerity crowd are full on nut jobs, who have no idea how a society function. They believe rich should pay more, but dont realise they pretty much pay all the taxes in society and get very little in return


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    ryanf1 wrote: »
    They are devoid of reality if you ask me.
    I should start by saying I'm a member of FG. But taxing the rich will not in any solve our problems.

    Of course it won't, but it'll make the pill far less bitter for ordinary people to swallow. It won't seem so monstrously unfair as it does now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    Joshua J wrote: »
    It's extremely myopic to think that because you are money hungry and greedy that everybody is. I would in fact take less if it meant a fairer society.

    The fact that you position austerity as a positive says it all really.

    Ok then. Instead of insults, why don't you offer your solution to the situation.

    Austerity was needed.

    Shrinking the government down to a size you might understand... If a household is taking in €40k a year and spending €60k a year what does it need to start doing? Either loan money to fund the deficit year on year (crippling future generations with mass amounts of debt) or cut back on spending and find a way to increase income (aka austerity).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Taxing the rich more creates a downward-transfer of wealth, which is certainly a good thing, but it misses the big picture that we first have to stop the much more important upward-transfers of wealth, going to the rich.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    hfallada wrote: »
    He lost it when I told him our tax system is the second most progressive in the world and 50% of workers pay no tax.

    I love bringing this up to the "TAX THE RICH MORE!!!" brigade.


    Stops them right in their tracks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Yeah Anti-austerity.... IMF has already said and admitted it was the wrong thing to do several times now. That is why Europe is still lagging behind America/world at large. Germany got it's way Germany has been the only one to benefit. Take a look around you German companies here have done Massively well since full recession hit.
    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    I love bringing this up to the "TAX THE RICH MORE!!!" brigade.


    Stops them right in their tracks.


    Yeah I mean why Tax the top 1% that have done massively well out of the bust. Not as if they have increased there wealth buy 20%.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4 beardy_murphy


    ireland by most gauges is not a particulary " unequal " country , the left often call for a more scandanavian approach which would be fine but those earning less than 30 k per year in sweden pay twice as much tax as irish people earning the same amount , it appears that the left here dont want low( er ) earners to pay for anything


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭Joshua J


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    Ok then. Instead of insults, why don't you offer your solution to the situation.

    Austerity was needed.

    Shrinking the government down to a size you might understand... If a household is taking in €40k a year and spending €60k a year what does it need to start doing? Either loan money to fund the deficit year on year (crippling future generations with mass amounts of debt) or cut back on spending and find a way to increase income (aka austerity).

    You've done it again. You've pronounced that you understand completely how government works and you have to simplify it for me. The fact you can't see through gov propanganda and believe austerity was needed means you would not consider other options. Would be a waste of my time. To learn something you have to first accept you don't know it all.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,299 ✭✭✭✭The Backwards Man


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    I love bringing this up to the "TAX THE RICH MORE!!!" brigade.


    Stops them right in their tracks.
    Unfortunately, people lost the ability to think for themselves in the last 15-20 years, and a more likely to believe a catchy soundbite from a populist loonytune than they are the truth.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    Yeah Anti-austerity.... IMF has already said and admitted it was the wrong thing to do several times now.

    No they didn't. They said they had underestimated the effects of it on the economy and that other actions should have been taken as well as austerity, not instead of it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    No they didn't. They said they had underestimated the effects of it on the economy and that other actions should have been taken as well as austerity, not instead of it.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/austerity-only-policy-for-ireland-was-a-mistake-admits-former-imf-chief-866012-Apr2013/

    Austerity-only policy for Ireland was a mistake, admits former IMF chief
    Ashoka Mody said there were three options available to the EU and IMF when arriving in Ireland – burn bondholders, offer easy terms and conditions for loans, or pursue austerity measures – and the Troika had opted for the latter option.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    Joshua J wrote: »
    You've done it again. You've pronounced that you understand completely how government works and you have to simplify it for me. The fact you can't see through gov propanganda and believe austerity was needed means you would not consider other options. Would be a waste of my time. To learn something you have to first accept you don't know it all.

    I'll ask again. Please post your workable alternatives to austerity.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus



    "THE FORMER HEAD of the IMF mission to Ireland has admitted that the austerity-only policy chosen for the handling of Ireland’s EU-IMF bailout was a mistake."

    The article you posted agrees with me.


  • Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    An interesting topic. I too have wondered where they were coming from. I've made it my business to speak to some and while most are part of what I would term "Pay for nothing, want everything free" brigade, one I spoke to was really earnest about the people who have nothing and their children are hungry, can't afford esb, etc. He says that there families like that in his part of Dublin. He's a lovely lad who would give you the shirt off his back. He says a lot of their problems comes from their background. Most would lack the necessary social skills needed to fend for themselves. There are lots of broken families. Mothers rely on convenience foods because they are unable to cook. Simple things like that can have a huge affect on finances. Other problems are the lack of knowledge as to how to maintain a house. I laughed out loud when he said that, but he says they wouldn't have seen housework done on a regular basis, so don't see the need for it. Things like hoovering and washing floors. Cleaning windows. Doing the laundry. Often their only means of coping is to remove themselves mentally from the situation, by using drink and/or drugs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    the " rich " will - should pay

    thats where their arguement starts and ends , their isnt anything more to it

    Money trees, don't forget the money trees.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    People should put off focusing on downward-distribution of wealth (i.e. 'tax the rich'), and focus instead on stopping the bigger problem of upward redistribution of wealth.

    Are people even aware of what issues cause upward redistribution of wealth? (there are many I could mention, but no point just listing them out, as it'll just get skipped over - worth making people actually think about it)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,442 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    hfallada wrote: »
    Most of these anti-austerity crowd are full on nut jobs, who have no idea how a society function. They believe rich should pay more, but dont realise they pretty much pay all the taxes in society and get very little in return

    two questions

    1) define rich.
    2) where does it say that they pay more than everyone else combined?

    If you define rich as the top 90% I'd agree with you. If you define them as the top 10%, well... I want to see those stats.

    I have no problem with taxing the rich more. If they brought in a third tax bracket of say 50% on everything over 200k I'd be ok with it. It's not going to turn anyone into a pauper or change their lifestyle. I would however want to know how much revenue would be generated by it.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Bongalongherb


    Grayson wrote: »
    I'm about as socialist as they come and i agree with Austerity. Well, to an extent.
    You're right, we had a huge drop in revenue and we had an increase in expenditure. We had to make cutbacks and we need to increase taxes. I think that no one group should be overly hit. And I think we do need to be careful with where we make cutbacks so as to minimise the pain.

    there are people who are pro austerity who want to gut the public service and social security. they're idiots. A balanced reasoned approach is what is needed.
    And i agree with Austerity to an extent
    ?. Well, every tax-paying citizen in Ireland arsed it up badly for themselves, as they are the ones that bailed out un-guarrenteed bondholders by force from government and allowed it without a protest.

    The Irish taxpayer injected itself into this austerity wilfully by not stopping the government in forwarding your monies to gamblers that lost. Cutbacks and all this sh!t will multiply when a persons head is stuck up it's anus yearly. If you lost a bet in paddy power, do you think you would get your money back ? of course not. But all Irish taxpayers just laid back and said nothing and allowed this corrupt government to extract your money to pay criminals off. It was never our debt.

    Keep paying if you like, it's your money, so you can burn it if you like.


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