Weekend photos

HeidiHeidi · 26-04-2014 03:10PM

neris wrote: »

Lots of happy kids out in Howth this morning when they hrard racing was been cancelled for the day

Not as happy as I was in DL

We were on our ear with no sails up in the harbour :eek:

God bless the 0s and 1s who actually went racing..... not to mention the ISORA boats who were coming back in with storm jibs up.....

Stheno · 26-04-2014 03:59PM

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

Not as happy as I was in DL

We were on our ear with no sails up in the harbour :eek:

God bless the 0s and 1s who actually went racing..... not to mention the ISORA boats who were coming back in with storm jibs up.....

We got cancelled before we even went out

neris · 26-04-2014 04:02PM

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

Not as happy as I was in DL

We were on our ear with no sails up in the harbour :eek:

God bless the 0s and 1s who actually went racing..... not to mention the ISORA boats who were coming back in with storm jibs up.....

I was meant to be on that ISORA today but the owner cancelled last night. I woke up bout 7 this morning and it was lovely. Cursing the hell out if him till I dropped the young lad to howth at 9 and was blowing dogs off chains

neris · 28-04-2014 07:10PM

Spent most of Sunday out at the ISA youth nationals in Howth. A very blustery start to the day and still a good swell rolling in from the previous day which led to a few cases of kids suffering from sickness.

Howth Boat Club launching

Dinghy Supplies SB2o heading over to Dun Laoghaire for racing . 3 2nd places followed. The white marquees behind the marina was the Prawn festival which led to a jam packed Howth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xI_BdEyUw0

neris · 09-05-2014 07:30PM

taken by young guy out in howth during the week on the isa j80s. long wipe out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF-xtPW2Fh8

Vexorg · 09-05-2014 08:01PM

Awesome - "Dad, I'm going to get 1000s of you tube hits"

It looked like they had released the spinnaker sheet and that it was just flying like a flag until he mentioned cutting it free. Was the sheet caught keeping the spinny filled and holding them in a broach?

neris · 09-05-2014 08:10PM

Vexorg wrote: »

Awesome - "Dad, I'm going to get 1000s of you tube hits"

It looked like they had released the spinnaker sheet and that it was just flying like a flag until he mentioned cutting it free. Was the sheet caught keeping the spinny filled and holding them in a broach?

in fairness i think the guys only about 11 or 12 if its who i think it is.

not sure why they were pinned may get 2nd hand bar room version over the weekend

HeidiHeidi · 09-05-2014 08:11PM

Hard to believe that flappy spinny and the flappy main would hold them over with the boom in the water for that length of time

But clearly they did!

I have a huge thing about knots in spinny sheets for this very reason - I'll tie a knot in every other sheet/halyard/rope I find on a boat, but never on a spinny sheet. I've heard arguments against, but none that has yet convinced me.

I've been on those J80's once in reasonably windy weather - they're INCREDIBLY skittish! (I did have a raging hangover, which probably didn't help my perception of things - I insisted on helming so I'd have something to hang onto!). And no guardrail :eek:

neris · 09-05-2014 08:42PM

knots in a spinny sheet is a no no. a knoted spinny sheet is still filling kite which is even more out of control due to its distance away from the boat. Id rather loose 200 quids worth of rope then €2ks worth of aluminium and the rest

HeidiHeidi · 09-05-2014 08:43PM

neris wrote: »

knots in a spinny sheet is a no no. a knoted spinny sheet is still filling kite which is even more out of control due to its distance away from the boat. Id rather loose 200 quids worth of rope then €2ks worth of aluminium and the rest

.... not to mention crew :eek:

neris · 09-05-2014 08:46PM

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

.... not to mention crew :eek:

well now that would be debatable

HeidiHeidi · 09-05-2014 08:50PM

neris wrote: »

well now that would be debatable

What about that pesky rule that you have to finish with the same number of crew you started with?

Fierce difficult to turn back off a run to pick stray escaped crew up - I know, we've been there and done it (it was my sister, so we wouldn't have left her behind anyhow.....

:D)

neris · 09-05-2014 08:54PM

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

What about that pesky rule that you have to finish with the same number of crew you started with?

Fierce difficult to turn back off a run to pick stray escaped crew up - I know, we've been there and done it (it was my sister, so we wouldn't have left her behind anyhow..... :D)

Crew??? no Mr Race Officer I was em eh single handing so had none of this so called crew type people you mention

Vexorg · 09-05-2014 09:03PM

I did not mean it negetivly, I thought it was cool that a young lad who was obviously nervous was able to see beyond the immediate predicament. :-)

I would be screaming like a girl. (And in case anyone takes that up wrong - not that a girl would scream in that situation - but that I am unsure how I would react and may scream in a high pitched voice)

neris wrote: »

in fairness i think the guys only about 11 or 12 if its who i think it is.

not sure why they were pinned may get 2nd hand bar room version over the weekend

Steve · 09-05-2014 09:19PM

In fairness, this is a good example of why it's called a 'kite'

They half-dumped everything which exasperated the problem, the only way out of that was either a full dump on the halyard and pull in some mackerel or keep the sheet on hard and dump guy then take-down.
The pro thing to do would have been dump 12 feet of sheet and bear off and keep her sailing but that's way harder than it sounds.

pedroeibar1 · 09-05-2014 09:37PM

Vexorg wrote: »

I thought it was cool that a young lad .......was able to see beyond the immediate predicament. :-)

My thoughts too! Fair play to the kid, no signs of panic, kept the cool, laughed, enjoyed and filmed it all to rub Dad’s nose in it! Thankfully no such thing as phonecams in the days when my youngest was that age, but Dave Branningan has one or two negs I’d rather he lost! I love the glee when the kid notices another boat has had the same misfortune.
Scary that the helmsman was very nearly lost overboard – look at 0:34 The kid was smart enough to realise the danger. He'll make a great foredeck guy in a couple of years! Well done young man!:cool:

Hard to tell from the clip, (and easy from a distance & in retrospect) but to me the spinny was too full, it should have been much flatter. Good that the crewcount was done (‘I’m OKOK I’m here’ from the kid down below).The sheet would appear to have been eased, but probably not enough and too slowly. Also, someone let off the halyard, which caused most of the problems. Early action was prevented by retrieving the helmsman from the drink!

FWIW , IMO the guy should have been allowed run through and the spinny hauled into the cockpit by the sheet, which is why there should always be a knot at the end of the sheet and not on the guy.

neris · 09-05-2014 09:42PM

Vexorg wrote: »

I would be screaming like a girl. (And in case anyone takes that up wrong - not that a girl would scream in that situation - but that I am unsure how I would react and may scream in a high pitched voice)

maybe like this

Vexorg · 09-05-2014 10:37PM

maybe half an octave higher. :-)

Stheno · 10-05-2014 08:17PM

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

I've been on those J80's once in reasonably windy weather - they're INCREDIBLY skittish! (I did have a raging hangover, which probably didn't help my perception of things - I insisted on helming so I'd have something to hang onto!). And no guardrail :eek:

I was on one of those a few times last year during a course.
No guardrail so you clung onto whatever you could, no footstraps either :eek:

My third time out we went out past Irelands Eye, and thunder and lightning came in, it was mental.

Very fast boats, but like you said quite skittish, I was doing helm at one point during the thunder and lightning and you needed to pay full attention

Vexorg wrote: »

I would be screaming like a girl. (And in case anyone takes that up wrong - not that a girl would scream in that situation - but that I am unsure how I would react and may scream in a high pitched voice)

Vexorg wrote: »

maybe half an octave higher. :-)

Having heard you last week, I'd say at least an octave

I'd probably decide swimming back to shore was the better option

HeidiHeidi · 11-05-2014 10:50AM

Steve wrote: »

In fairness, this is a good example of why it's called a 'kite'

They half-dumped everything which exasperated the problem, the only way out of that was either a full dump on the halyard and pull in some mackerel or keep the sheet on hard and dump guy then take-down.
The pro thing to do would have been dump 12 feet of sheet and bear off and keep her sailing but that's way harder than it sounds.

Now, see, this is interesting!

I've always had as an instinct that when you broach you dump the sheet - you need to dump one corner of the kite to depower it, and sheet is what I have in my head as the thing to go.

I can see the problem with retrieval if you dump the sheet - if you dump guy you still have the sheet to haul in - but do you not risk smashing the forestay with the pole if you dump the guy with that much power behind the spinny???

And as for your last recommendation - yeah right! Must try that sometime, but the fact that in a bad broach half the crew are either upsidedown in a pile in the cockpit or trying not to slide overboard means the concentration levels tend to be a bit lacking

. Nice theory though, must remember that.....

pedroeibar1 · 11-05-2014 11:23AM

I agree with some of Steve's comment...
It really depends on what you want to do – keep the kite up and continue, or get it down. When the boat is starting to broach it is necessary to spill wind from the kite, hence leaving the sheet right off (but with a figure8 in the end!) and try to sail off. In the clip the skipper shouts ‘Ease the sheet’ in an early stage. If that does not work you have to get the guy off and then haul (by the sheet) the kite into the cockpit.
I’m never in favour of dumping the sheet (that’s what you need to retrieve the kite) or dropping the halyard too soon as the latter usually worsens the broach and there is a big risk of losing the sail and/or sailing over it, fouling prop, rudder etc.

HeidiHeidi · 11-05-2014 11:39AM

Yep, that all makes sense - but I still wonder if dumping the guy while the spinny is still powered up (even if that's a bit reduced by easing the sheet) could risk damaging the forestay?

Obviously if both of you are of the opinion that that's the way to go, there must be some merit in it! Thankfully our spinny is so small, and the pole so light, that it probably wouldn't do much harm - and I'll definitely be having this discussion with my co-owners and crew! - but the thoughts of dumping some of the bigger masthead spinny poles against the forestay while still in any way powered makes me shudder :eek:

Steve · 11-05-2014 05:08PM

Just to further explain what I said, dump sheet and bear off is to prevent broaching rather than a reaction to it. It must be done ahead of time and the crew really needs to know in advance that the boat is about to go beyond it's limit. Once you're already in a broach and spinning out then dumping sheet is pointless as the sail is already flapping - you need to be in recovery mode at that point.

When the boat is 'about to go' everyone needs to recognise it's happening and trimmers need to have something in reserve to correct it.
Basically dump kite sheet, dump main sheet, dump kicker so the helm can bear off and keep sailing a boat the right way up.

As for damaging the forestay, good point but the thing to remember is 'dump' is not the same as 'feed out' - dump means the guy is released unimpeded, preferably it means the foredeck spikes it at the pole as would be normal in a big boat drop.

Stheno · 11-05-2014 06:59PM

Steve wrote: »

Just to further explain what I said, dump sheet and bear off is to prevent broaching rather than a reaction to it. It must be done ahead of time and the crew really needs to know in advance that the boat is about to go beyond it's limit. Once you're already in a broach and spinning out then dumping sheet is pointless as the sail is already flapping - you need to be in recovery mode at that point.

When the boat is 'about to go' everyone needs to recognise it's happening and trimmers need to have something in reserve to correct it.
Basically dump kite sheet, dump main sheet, dump kicker so the helm can bear off and keep sailing a boat the right way up.

As for damaging the forestay, good point but the thing to remember is 'dump' is not the same as 'feed out' - dump means the guy is released unimpeded, preferably it means the foredeck spikes it at the pole as would be normal in a big boat drop.

You've confused me now Steve, and that's due to me only having experience of A kites.

Is the guy the equivalent of the clew on an a kite?

Cos everything else you suggest involves dumping the sheets, main, kicker which all make sense to me.

Steve · 11-05-2014 07:04PM

The guy on a symmetric kite is the equivalent of the tack line on an asymmetric.

We're talking extreme situations where the only option is a take-down rather than a recovery.

HeidiHeidi · 11-05-2014 07:05PM

Steve wrote: »

Just to further explain what I said, dump sheet and bear off is to prevent broaching rather than a reaction to it. It must be done ahead of time and the crew really needs to know in advance that the boat is about to go beyond it's limit. Once you're already in a broach and spinning out then dumping sheet is pointless as the sail is already flapping - you need to be in recovery mode at that point.

When the boat is 'about to go' everyone needs to recognise it's happening and trimmers need to have something in reserve to correct it.
Basically dump kite sheet, dump main sheet, dump kicker so the helm can bear off and keep sailing a boat the right way up.

As for damaging the forestay, good point but the thing to remember is 'dump' is not the same as 'feed out' - dump means the guy is released unimpeded, preferably it means the foredeck spikes it at the pole as would be normal in a big boat drop.

Hmmm, foredeck would be on the rail or on the boom, no? (if they're not in the water!) So the chances of him/her spiking would be slim really, given how fast broaches happen..... And getting a few turns off the winch to dump (as opposed to feed) the guy from the back would require very deft handling indeed.....

Think on balance I'd prefer to lose the sheet and organise recovery from the guy end! Unless everyone was COMPLETELY on top of their game - which doesn't often happen in my sailing life

Otherwise, your description of broach prevention rather than recovery makes complete sense.

Steve · 11-05-2014 07:26PM

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

Hmmm, foredeck would be on the rail or on the boom, no? (if they're not in the water!) So the chances of him/her spiking would be slim really, given how fast broaches happen..... And getting a few turns off the winch to dump (as opposed to feed) the guy from the back would require very deft handling indeed.....

Think on balance I'd prefer to lose the sheet and organise recovery from the guy end! Unless everyone was COMPLETELY on top of their game - which doesn't often happen in my sailing life

Otherwise, your description of broach prevention rather than recovery makes complete sense.

Yeah, it depends on how big the boat is really.

Prevention is always better than cure:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkouAjobzac

10 crew on the foredeck for the takedown and bowman climbs the downhaul to spike the kite:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBwKP8VjngA

HeidiHeidi · 11-05-2014 07:41PM

Ah FFS! Didn't know whether to laugh or cry at that second one - 5 whole minutes from jib hoist to done :eek:

And how many bodies exactly does it take to drop and stow a pole???

God bless the monkey's arm and leg muscles though - you'd want to be confident of your abilities for that lark!

What was the second pole-type thing they were taking in on the port side after the pole came down?

Meanwhile, back in Dublin Bay........

Steve · 11-05-2014 08:23PM

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

What was the second pole-type thing they were taking in on the port side after the pole came down?

No idea - I'd guess it's called a whisker pole. Us mortals use a block near the shrouds or a tweaker to pull the guy down.

Meanwhile, back in Dublin Bay........

Indeed

pedroeibar1 · 12-05-2014 09:22AM

Agreed with Steve particularly on the need for good & early comms – too often once the windward mark is rounded and the kite filling, people begin to relax, gossip and not pay attention. Bad idea. Also, as broaches happen from behind it is no harm to keep an eye on what is happening back there.

Regarding the spinny boom on the forestay – the weight of the boom is supported inboard by the mast-ring and also by the topping-lift, so when it goes forward (hopefully without a bang) and no sail attached there is not much force behind it. Even if it does hit there is quite a bit of stretch in the forestay that will absorb the shock. The weakest place always is at the swage, where the wire is crimped. Like here:

The pole on the J class is a jockey pole, used to improve the sheeting angle on the guy when the pole is very far forward.

Weekend photos

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