Does it matter where your degree comes from?

typicalstudent · 08-05-2014 02:02PM

It's *pretty* hard to get into those colleges that are listed, and the people that do usually deserve to be there. It really comes down to whether you can afford to be picking and choosing, and these people can. So would you pick somebody who has worked hard since before their leaving or someone who has worked hard after walking into a course that requires no real accolades?

In my opinion, the leaving cert is the hardest exam you will sit. The pressure, the time and the lack of continuous assessment make it so. It's unfortunate that our education system is so highly geared toward once off performances, but that's that.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 08-05-2014 02:03PM

Candie wrote: »

If it's much more difficult to gain entry into the more high status universities, then it's likely that the graduates are of a higher calibre wealthier, generally. I can see where they're coming from.

Someone with a degree from Oxbridge is almost certainly brighter wealthier than someone with a degree from the University Of Average Joe.

Ahem...

the_syco · 08-05-2014 02:04PM

CramCycle wrote: »

What about those who got a 2.1 or 2.2, got out there, got a job and gained invaluable experience from the ground up, or got a project/internship that showed they have the mettle for the job. Or those who set up side projects that showed innovation but did not translate well onto the exam page.

I'm thinking they want the people with "firsts" like a footballer needs a trophy wife; people look at the trophy wife, and not the football club.

CramCycle · 08-05-2014 02:07PM

the_syco wrote: »

And I'd say very few college do exactly the same course.

But they should be equivalent and this is why when a course is supplied by a college outside teams come in and evaluate the course to see is it worthy of the title. A BSc(hons) from every third level institute in Ireland should be equivalent. My course was 290 points when I done it, it is now over 500. The course is the same. The only differences are that there were more dropouts when I attended (over 50% after 1st year) and now it is lower but the people who make their way to the final year and gets a 2.1 should be roughly equivalent academically with maybe strengths and weaknesses in different areas.

The only odd thing I found is that some colleges seen to have an undeserved reputation that carries no matter what industry and academic experts say.

Firsts should be rare as hell but I see degrees where over half the class gets a first and the other half gets a 2.1 which is just unbelievable.

Fred Swanson · 08-05-2014 02:10PM

This post has been deleted.

maguic24 · 08-05-2014 02:16PM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I've been working in Dublin financial services for 15 years.

I've very rarely been asked "where did you go to college".

I've very often been asked "where did you go to school".

There is no doubt in my mind that if you go to an 'elite' school that it matters more than going to college. By elite, obviously I mean fee paying, and participating in the Leinster Senior Cup if you are male.

That's such rubbish, I have never ever been asked what school I went to.

I went to a disadvantaged school in the middle of the sticks. Never held me back at all. I went to third level, got a degree and am now doing a masters part-time while also working full time.

If you have a bit of drive and determination, you'll get to where you want to be.

maguic24 · 08-05-2014 02:23PM

GarIT wrote: »

The course material. I have no problem,saying UCD has by far the best CS department in the country and Maynooth isn't as good as it. Trinity's course material is quite outdated and DCU hands out degrees for anything, everyone knows computer applications is the easiest course of any uni CS course to pass, that's the reason it is one of the most popular CS courses in the country but has relatively low points.

Computer Applications had the highest failure rate in DCU when I was there 2 years ago. I doubt much has changed since then.

Frank Lee Midere · 08-05-2014 02:24PM

CramCycle wrote: »

Math I would agree with, not CS though for reasons already mentioned in thread.

What about those who got a 2.1 or 2.2, got out there, got a job and gained invaluable experience from the ground up, or got a project/internship that showed they have the mettle for the job. Or those who set up side projects that showed innovation but did not translate well onto the exam page. Excluding people because of their degree even if someone else in the industry has tested them and shown that they are a good investment seems a bad idea.

I will admit that you need filters but IMO, a first may not be a suitable filter,

After a while all that matters is experience.

The question is whether Trinity is actually that good. Is it? Do google hire from there exclusively when looking to Ireland? Or do they base on an interview. I kinda know the answer.

Frank Lee Midere · 08-05-2014 02:26PM

maguic24 wrote: »

That's such rubbish, I have never ever been asked what school I went to.

I went to a disadvantaged school in the middle of the sticks. Never held me back at all. I went to third level, got a degree and am now doing a masters part-time while also working full time.

If you have a bit of drive and determination, you'll get to where you want to be.

But he was early talking about a specific industry. Same with all the "old professions".

maguic24 · 08-05-2014 02:32PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

But he was early talking about a specific industry. Same with all the "old professions".

I still call BS on that and I don't care what profession it is.

If 2 candidates were looking for the same job and one was better qualified with more experience, I would choose that person over someone who barely scrapped by in LC and dropped out of college/never worked/etc.

I wouldn't give a hoot about what school they went to. I simply don't believe that people would be swayed by the fact someone went to a fee paying school.

the_merchant · 08-05-2014 02:34PM

I think that the level of your degree will only get you in the door for an interview, its how you perform thereafter that determines whether you get the job or not. I have seen many people with 2.2 degrees get jobs over those with a 1.1, being book smart is no indication of how a person will perform in industry and I think a lot of companies have copped on to this.

TimeToShine · 08-05-2014 02:36PM

maguic24 wrote: »

That's such rubbish, I have never ever been asked what school I went to.

I went to a disadvantaged school in the middle of the sticks. Never held me back at all. I went to third level, got a degree and am now doing a masters part-time while also working full time.

If you have a bit of drive and determination, you'll get to where you want to be.

Off topic but I can't help but disagree with this. I'm doing a masters as well and also went to a "school in the sticks". Compared to some of the students who went to top schools in Dublin it's quite clear we were held back quite a bit. I don't disagree with your point at all, but it's blatantly obvious that the schools in South Dublin are teaching and preparing their students to a much higher standard than the more rural ones. From the ground up they seem to be taught to understand concepts rather than memorize facts. For the fee paying schools there is also reviews in place so teachers who aren't getting results are dismissed post haste. In my school we were told to learn the SEC exam paper solutions word for word and we'd be fine, which obviously worked out for some but at what cost? About 20% of my year dropped out after the Junior Cert for ****s sake. The question is, really, how far could you have gone if you'd been educated at a high standard? Now obviously this doesn't apply if you think all your Leaving Cert teachers were very good, but I and many others can only single out maybe one or two good ones and see our "success" as more of an achievement in spite of our secondary level education rather than as a result of it. Just my 2c anyway.

I Heart Internet · 08-05-2014 02:36PM

Your degree?

You mean you have only one?!:eek:

username123 · 08-05-2014 02:37PM

maguic24 wrote: »

I simply don't believe that people would be swayed by the fact someone went to a fee paying school.

My husband went to a well known fee paying school and it has opened interview doors - and bizarrely, medical doors - where the surgeon recognised him as a former student and bumped him up the list.

Theres definitely an "old boys club" for some schools.

maguic24 · 08-05-2014 02:42PM

TimeToShine wrote: »

Off topic but I can't help but disagree with this. I'm doing a masters as well and also went to a "school in the sticks". Compared to some of the students who went to top schools in Dublin it's quite clear we were held back quite a bit. I don't disagree with your point at all, but it's blatantly obvious that the schools in South Dublin are teaching and preparing their students to a much higher standard than the more rural ones. From the ground up they seem to be taught to understand concepts rather than memorize facts. For the fee paying schools there is also reviews in place so teachers who aren't getting results are dismissed post haste. In my school we were told to learn the SEC exam paper solutions word for word and we'd be fine, which obviously worked out for some but at what cost? About 20% of my year dropped out after the Junior Cert for ****s sake. The question is, really, how far could you have gone if you'd been educated at a high standard? Now obviously this doesn't apply if you think all your Leaving Cert teachers were very good, but I and many others can only single out maybe one or two good ones and see our "success" as more of an achievement in spite of our secondary level education rather than as a result of it. Just my 2c anyway.

My point was that someone would pick someone from a fee paying school over someone from another school, simply on their school rather than on their work experience and other education. I never missed out on a job because of where I went to school.

Your point is different to what I was trying to get at but yes I agree with you totally. My teachers weren't very good and I did have to do most of the work myself. A quarter of my year was gone after JC or doing LCA and pressure was put on us to drop to ordinary level.

Feisar · 08-05-2014 02:52PM

Celly Smunt wrote: »

That isnt taking into account any IT in ireland who have far superior technical programs to trinity.

DIT for example.A man is locked up in Bolton street for four years away from the opposite sex and alongside his compatriots.In order to get his degree he must fix himself from within before he can fix the world.

Ah Bolton St! It's a wonder I managed to have a sex life in college at all. Us quantity surveyors were always jealous of the lads doing Property Economics, there were some crackers on that course.

maguic24 · 08-05-2014 02:54PM

Feisar wrote: »

Ah Bolton St! It's a wonder I managed to have a sex life in college at all. Us quantity surveyors were always jealous of the lads doing Property Economics, there were some crackers on that course.

Oh, oh oh, DIT Bolton street, what is with the 4th floor? I heard some story that if you're on the 4th floor you get all the ladies.

This could be a load of bull....I'm trying to remember what it was. Somethinig about DIT Bolton street and the 4th floor. Are the disciplines split by floor or something like that?

Sorry, a bit off topic.

Davarus Walrus · 08-05-2014 02:58PM

The idea that someone with a Desmond Tutu has the same chance of securing a graduate job as someone with a first is preposterous. Especially if the 1st is from Trinity.

tritium · 08-05-2014 03:00PM

AdamD wrote: »

You're making a pretty big assumption that they are hamstringing themselves.

These threads always bring about vast amounts of anecdotal evidence about amazing candidates who went to low level ITs etc. which completely misses the point that those situations are the outliers and that companies filter out universities and results etc. because as a general rule it will give them better candidates. Its simply not worth their time trawling through hundreds of applications to find the one or two people who may buck the trend.

Not really, any one size fits all approach trades granular detail for simplicity. Unless you assess a candidate yourself you're leaving yourself open to the vagaries of the market, I.e. exposing yourself to risk to reduce cost.

there's some debate whether graduates of certain colleges actually do better because they're better candidates. This is especially pertinent in the context of many high achievers from low income groups not having access to top colleges

InReality · 08-05-2014 03:04PM

Yes.
Different entry requirements for different colleges.

steddyeddy · 08-05-2014 03:06PM

Esme Fancy Colt wrote: »

Ahem...

Bingo. The wealth of a person's parents dictates the quality of school one goes to and to a large extent it determines whether one goes to college or not.

Feisar · 08-05-2014 03:10PM

maguic24 wrote: »

Oh, oh oh, DIT Bolton street, what is with the 4th floor? I heard some story that if you're on the 4th floor you get all the ladies.

This could be a load of bull....I'm trying to remember what it was. Something about DIT Bolton street and the 4th floor. Are the disciplines split by floor or something like that?

Sorry, a bit off topic.

Wasn't the fourth floor where the architects used to float about slightly adrift from reality? There were a few ladies up there to. Can't say I ever heard about the fourth floor being some sort of stairway to heaven.

Dyr · 08-05-2014 03:17PM

errlloyd wrote: »

I think it's a pretty dumb policy tbh, and what's strange about it is that it seems so different from the policy of so many tech companies around right now.

If you dealt with this shower before you'd see where this was coming from..a socioeconomic outlook akin to basil Fawlty.

Frank Lee Midere · 08-05-2014 03:22PM

maguic24 wrote: »

I still call BS on that and I don't care what profession it is.

If 2 candidates were looking for the same job and one was better qualified with more experience, I would choose that person over someone who barely scrapped by in LC and dropped out of college/never worked/etc.

I wouldn't give a hoot about what school they went to. I simply don't believe that people would be swayed by the fact someone went to a fee paying school.

Well then you don't really understand the world you live in. I mean seriously just look at the nepotism in politics.

maguic24 · 08-05-2014 03:25PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Well then you don't really understand the world you live in. I mean seriously just look at the nepotism in politics.

I can understand nepotism and people getting a job etc because they know someone. That's fair enough, I'm not arguing that that doesn't happen. That's completely separate from what I'm trying to say.

Frank Lee Midere · 08-05-2014 03:32PM

maguic24 wrote: »

I can understand nepotism and people getting a job etc because they know someone. That's fair enough, I'm not arguing that that doesn't happen. That's completely separate from what I'm trying to say.

Half the point of going to fee paying schools is networking. Either meeting people who may have the money to hire you later or whose parents may. And, like in this thread, elite schools may or may not have better education ( nobody has proven CS is better in trinity and I honestly don't know) but all that matters in the idea that they may.

That's not the only networking in Irish life. The GAA is another. A good GAA player won't starve.

Anyways the way of the world.

D1stant · 08-05-2014 03:39PM

For experienced people it does not matter. At all. For me, the sole purpose of college is to teach you how to learn and apply yourself to the real world.

For graduates, Employers (read clueless HR) need a filter to reject applicants because of the volume. A 1.1, 2.1 or college name will do nicely.

At least when I did my degree (4 years Engineering) the technical college graduates were far better than the Universities. Not because they were brighter, but just because of the mix in curriculum and the sheer workload. We had lecturers that worked in both domains and they all agreed that the technical college qualification was superior

CramCycle · 08-05-2014 03:55PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

The question is whether Trinity is actually that good. Is it? Do google hire from there exclusively when looking to Ireland? Or do they base on an interview. I kinda know the answer.

Interview

tritium wrote: »

there's some debate whether graduates of certain colleges actually do better because they're better candidates. This is especially pertinent in the context of many high achievers from low income groups not having access to top colleges

TAP for trinity and New ERA for UCD and HEAR for general third level courses, they also lower the points for successful applicants as they accept that in lower income areas you may not have time or resources to study as those in higher income areas. I was from a designated lower income area but never heard about these till I was in college.

D1stant wrote: »

For experienced people it does not matter. At all. For me, the sole purpose of college is to teach you how to learn and apply yourself to the real world.

As was put to me with my first job, all it does is prove your competent and that you can stick something for 4 years.

At least when I did my degree (4 years Engineering) the technical college graduates were far better than the Universities. Not because they were brighter, but just because of the mix in curriculum and the sheer workload. We had lecturers that worked in both domains and they all agreed that the technical college qualification was superior

Having worked in an IT and a University, I would say the same for Science students, Universities tend to have more academically focused students but the ITs had students who could walk into a plant and run it with little instruction which is a skill many university students seem to lack, the good ones will bluff it and work around it, the rest will wonder what did they actually learn in their 4 years.

tritium · 08-05-2014 04:09PM

CramCycle wrote: »

Interview

TAP for trinity and New ERA for UCD and HEAR for general third level courses, they also lower the points for successful applicants as they accept that in lower income areas you may not have time or resources to study as those in higher income areas. I was from a designated lower income area but never heard about these till I was in college.
.

Yes I've heard of some of these. The comment was more in the global context, oxbridge , .MIT,,Harvard etc

As an aside I wonder what the filter they apply for those colleges is

TimeToShine · 08-05-2014 04:13PM

tritium wrote: »

Yes I've heard of some of these. The comment was more in the global context, oxbridge , .MIT,,Harvard etc

As an aside I wonder what the filter they apply for those colleges is

You won't get into those colleges without your parents paying through the nose unless you are truly exceptional and earn a scholarship. UCD/TCD/UCC etc. are small fries compared to these places and comparing them is pointless.

If you mean what filter do companies apply to these colleges, they don't. You are effectively guaranteed an interview for any vacant position with a degree from one of these places no questions asked.

Does it matter where your degree comes from?

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